APR Stage I B8.5 S4...worth buying Stage II?

[waffles]

Hey guys,

I have a 2013 S4 and a few days ago I got the APR Stage I software installed with the 93 octane program. Already it has made a HUGE difference in the car. There is more power and the acceleration feels constant and doesn't drop off like it did before the tune. I didn't install stage II when I got the stage I software, because the mechanics didn't have the time to install the pulley....Other than being impatient I thought it would be kind of cool to give an impression of the car before and after the pulley install, but now I'm having second thoughts. The quote for the pulley upgrade alone totals around $1200, and it seems like $1200 for a marginal increase in power (20-30 AWHP) kind of makes it not worthwhile.

My question is this. Is there anyone out there who had the Stage I first then upgraded to Stage II? I want to know if it is worth the added expense, or should I put my money elsewhere into the car...new grill, etc.

Thanks Internet people!

[schirm]

I am APR stage 1, I recently got a ride in an APR stage 2. The power difference is amazing. IDK where you got 20WHP from, you should go on APR's website and look at the dyno chart or do some more research. The difference in power is through the whole RPM range, while stage 1 increase from stock is mostly after 3,500-4,000RPM.


I got quoted 600& for pulley install, so would say that price is very high.

[waffles]

The install was $600 and the pulley was $500ish...so its like $1200. The APR Dyno chart does show a pretty big increase across the powerband, but the numbers below say 20-30 AWHP and 20AWTQ

Dyno Performance









APR Calibration Report (Measured at All 4 Wheels)
Data Collected from a 2013 B8.5 S4 DSG - 6MT models typically produce higher output with a higher redline

Peak Power
278 AWHP - Stock
336 AWHP - APR Stage 1
353 AWHP - APR Stage 2+
+77 AWHP @ 6200 RPM - Stage 1
+93 AWHP @ 6200 RPM - Stage 2+

Peak Torque
292 AWTQ - Stock
324 AWTQ - APR Stage 1
341 AWTQ - APR Stage 2+
+65 AWTQ @ 6200 RPM - Stage 1
+79 AWTQ @ 6200 RPM - Stage 2+

[waffles]

not sure why the charts didn't copy, but here is the link http://www.a5oc.com/forums/s5-perfor...ts-b8-5-a.html

[DEEZ]

I went straight to stage II so I cant talk difference between stage I and II but would highly recommend getting the pulley, its an entirely different car-

[IanCH]

The difference in stage 1 and stage 2 is very small dollar for dollar. Its different for the B8 vs the B8.5 but on paper (removing the buyers confirmation bias) it isn't worth it.
The peak gain is 19awhp, but the average gain is about 13 across the band

[Ze_Nardo6]

The difference in stage 1 and stage 2 is very small dollar for dollar. Its different for the B8 vs the B8.5 but on paper (removing the buyers confirmation bias) it isn't worth it.
The peak gain is 19awhp, but the average gain is about 12 across the band

Why are the gains different between the b8 and b8.5?

[IanCH]

Why are the gains different between the b8 and b8.5?

Different redline, unfortunately they dont make a graph like the one I posted above for b8.5

Stage 2 is worth it IMO if you do the install yourself, but at 600 to pay someone else the $ dont match up

[CasualObserver]

I have had both stg I and stg II APR tunes on my b8.5 S5. IMHO I would say it is totally worth it. In my experience the jump from STGI to STGII was far more noticeable than the jump from stock to STGI. Primarily STGI allows you to hold boost higher into the rev range which helps cure the feeling of the car falling on it's face as you go through the gears; and in doing so makes it faster. STGII made more of a seat of the pants impression on me because the boost/torque goes up significantly. The sensation of being put back in your seat/throttle response is greatly enhanced. I Agree with IanCH. I installed my pulley myself and I find it to be one of the better investments as far as the dollars to fun to drive ratio.

[washyourrhands]

totally worth it. people spend a lot more than that for exhaust that gives less power. the HP at the low RPMs makes it worth it

[raudiace4]

Different redline, unfortunately they dont make a graph like the one I posted above for b8.5

Stage 2 is worth it IMO if you do the install yourself, but at 600 to pay someone else the $ dont match up

I lol'd at your signature.

[MrFunk]

The main difference is in TQ not so much in HP. You get much more TQ lower in the powerband.
I've had both stage 1 and 2. It's worth it IMO - it's noticeably stronger, makes the car much more derivable in lower RPM DD situations. Stock smoothness is retained... and the extra $ from Stage 1 => 2 is pretty low compared to other mods (exhaust, SS, AluK, BBK etc) and yields the biggest power/tq gains of them all. If you're stage 1, you've invested enough to justify the step up... Heck - look at what some people spend on headers that actually make their cars slower !

[drob23]

The difference in Stg 2 should also be throttle response and low-end torque. The blower will build up boost quicker and earlier in the RPM band than stock. The power increase will also be there, but the stg 2 returns should be felt over the entire RPM band. This contrasts with stg 1 which is more focused towards horsepower (i.e. high end), since it functions largely by holding the bypass closed longer than stock, which bleeds boost up top by design. Then of course both give you the improvements of a cal designed for 93 octane (or 100) vs whatever your stock ecu has settled on.

The real compromise you've made is to tune the ECU to begin with and enter some form of the TD1 dance (not trying to start the debate ), so you might as well pay the marginal increase in cost for stg 2, that's what I will do.

[MrFunk]

I lol'd at your signature.

LOL! I just noticed that... haha... poor westwesty

[jfabes]

i went stg 1 then 2 about 2 months apart and 2 makes the car way more fun and driveable in the city. you don't have to wind it past 5000 like you do with stg 1 to feel the difference. i think stg 2 was more noticeable on the but dyno than stg 1 because of the torque. if i did it over, i'd go straight to stg 2.

they're ripping you on an install. even if you don't heat the pulley while disassembling, that job should take no more than 3 hours absolute max if you've never done it before. so $200/hr is robbery. wait for an apr sale and get the pulley for around $450, borrow the puller from a forum member (for a small fee) and do it yourself...its straightforward and easy.

[1MORLAP]

Don't listen to IanCH and people who stayed with Stage 1. I have said this before and stand fully by it, Stage 1 is a waste of money. Stage 2 on a B8 is what Stage 1 was on B5. If you are going to flash, go Stage 2 or stay stock.

[IanCH]

Don't listen to IanCH and people who stayed with Stage 1. I have said this before and stand fully by it, Stage 1 is a waste of money. Stage 2 on a B8 is what Stage 1 was on B5. If you are going to flash, go Stage 2 or stay stock.

I'm only speaking to paper numbers. Everything else is subjective and while it may be your opinion stage 2 is better the facts we have show it is not 2x price better.

At 1200 (sale price) stage 1 is $15.5/hp.
At 900 (sale price+400 install) stage 2 is $30/hp - if you do the install yourself stage 2 is $16.6/hp

I hold to my point earlier, stage 2 is only worth when you do the install yourself.

Looking at low end torque (not peak) stg 1 is +~20tq down low and stage 2 is +~40tq down low.

1200/20 = $60/tq
900/20 = $45/tq or for self $25/tq

So in that respect stage 2 is better bang for buck.

[waffles]

Thanks for all the guidance I think I'm definitely getting the pulley and then either installing it or finding someone who will install it for cheaper than 600$...but if I get the pulley don't I need to change the software when I change the pulley?

[IanCH]

Thanks for all the guidance I think I'm definitely getting the pulley and then either installing it or finding someone who will install it for cheaper than 600$...but if I get the pulley don't I need to change the software when I change the pulley?

You can get the software flashed after the pulley install. The ECU will just dump the extra boost in the mean time.

[waffles]

How badly could I mess this install up is the question...

[IanCH]

How badly could I mess this install up is the question...

Watch this video: http://www.ecstuning.com/Audi-B8_S4-...3/Video372-HD/

[raudiace4]

Basically OP just get stage 2.

You are already risking TD1, go all out or stay stock.

[waffles]

Yep. That's straightforward. I'm doing it..now I just have to pay for them to reflash it but it's wayyyy cheaper I'll let you guys know how it goes

[drob23]

Watch this video: http://www.ecstuning.com/Audi-B8_S4-...3/Video372-HD/

Man, I'm really impressed with how many guides/videos ECS has put together for products that they don't even make. Given my close proximity, I usually go with them for parts since they arrive so soon, but this type of video/guide stuff makes me want to send more of my $$ their way. Way to go ECS!

[rs4dreams]

Install of the pulley should take no more than 2.5-3 hours. My local shop charged me $250. Stage 2 is undoubtedly the way to go.

[xuandatou]

I paid $320 for the pulley install(including the ECU reflash). It should be done within 3 hr as maximum. $600 is way too high.

[waffles]

I just got them down to $400 including re-flash...Its over, they won...$1000 for the pulley and install I'm thinking is worth it.

[saxon]

thats crazy and a rip off IMO

the pulley install is so easy, i got quoted $300 fyi by awe

$1000 for a 15 minute flash and a $50 pulley just seems crazy

[1MORLAP]

I'm only speaking to paper numbers. Everything else is subjective and while it may be your opinion stage 2 is better the facts we have show it is not 2x price better.

At 1200 (sale price) stage 1 is $15.5/hp.
At 900 (sale price+400 install) stage 2 is $30/hp - if you do the install yourself stage 2 is $16.6/hp

I hold to my point earlier, stage 2 is only worth when you do the install yourself.

Looking at low end torque (not peak) stg 1 is +~20tq down low and stage 2 is +~40tq down low.

1200/20 = $60/tq
900/20 = $45/tq or for self $25/tq

So in that respect stage 2 is better bang for buck.

HP sells, Torque makes the car go. If you want to do this right calculate the total are under the torque curve. Look Stage 1 gives you few milliseconds of extra fun right before you have to shift. Yeah, it is nice, when you are wringing the car out. Stage 2 just transforms the car at all RPMs.

[Usa]

An engineer at APR told me today that flashing back to stock with their software (at any dealer) will reset the flash counter back to 0, making the Audi Diagnostic tool unable to detect the software.

The dealership service manager I spoke to today at Audi during my 25K service said they only hook that diagnostic tool up to your car for the scheduled maintenance (25k/35k/etc.) which is required to reset your service warning but they can also manually enter a TD1 (not all dealerships are friendly) however you could also just reset the service warning through the vag-comm

[Ze_Nardo6]

Watch this video: http://www.ecstuning.com/Audi-B8_S4-...3/Video372-HD/

That is a great instructional video. I can't believe how much work that is to change a s/c pulley. Takes me 20 minutes to swap the blower pulley on my Saleen. Definitely worth saving your $300 to do this on your own.

The thing I dislike about videos like this is how easy they make it look due to having a car lift and air tools, not to mention experience. Still very capable for someone taking their time with adequate tools.

[IanCH]

That is a great instructional video. I can't believe how much work that is to change a s/c pulley. Takes me 20 minutes to swap the blower pulley on my Saleen. Definitely worth saving your $300 to do this on your own.

The thing I dislike about videos like this is how easy they make it look due to having a car lift and air tools, not to mention experience. Still very capable for someone taking their time with adequate tools.

Kinda funny, someone (apr and giac getting free ideas here) could make a fortune if they turned the pulley into a two piece assembly, the inner being a keyed press on piece and the outer being a keyed pulley that doesnt need any heat to remove or re install. This is mostly because people here have a penchant for avoiding TD1 literally like it's the plague.

[Dominick's S4]

Go right to Stage ll and don't look back.. If you have the ECU reflashed you are already in with two feet so you might as well get the most out of it. I went to APR during their annual BBQ event last fall and as a promotion they installed the pulley and belt for free.. Otherwise it is $200 labor at APR. If you cannot do it yourself then anything over $300 is high.. The flash and pulley is the least expensive HP and tq you can buy.. No other mods deliver that type of performance dollar for dollar..

[Ze_Nardo6]

Kinda funny, someone (apr and giac getting free ideas here) could make a fortune if they turned the pulley into a two piece assembly, the inner being a keyed press on piece and the outer being a keyed pulley that doesnt need any heat to remove or re install. This is mostly because people here have a penchant for avoiding TD1 literally like it's the plague.

TD1? Sorry I am new to these cars

[integroid]

Kinda funny, someone (apr and giac getting free ideas here) could make a fortune if they turned the pulley into a two piece assembly, the inner being a keyed press on piece and the outer being a keyed pulley that doesnt need any heat to remove or re install. This is mostly because people here have a penchant for avoiding TD1 literally like it's the plague.

I am not following here....this would visually give it away that you have or had an aftermarket pulley on. To remove this 2 piece design you would still need to take it off and reinstall the stock pulley.

The APR pulley looks like a stock pulley with no markings or indications it is not the OEM pulley. The only way to tell the difference between the APR and stock would be to get a micrometer out and measure.

[waffles]

thats crazy and a rip off IMO

the pulley install is so easy, i got quoted $300 fyi by awe

$1000 for a 15 minute flash and a $50 pulley just seems crazy

the pulley is $550 and the install takes 3.5-4 hours, so its $400...expensive, yeah, but better for it to be expensive and done right, then have me do it and it be a pain in the ass and done wrong.

As for the TD1, the pulley literally is undetectable unless like Integroid said they measure it with a micrometer.

What I did is I went into my dealer for my 5k service appointment and I became friends with the head of the service department, then I asked him who his boss was and sent his boss a glowing recommendation about the guy who helped me, I also wrote him a great review on both google and yelp...now he and I are buds. If I come in with mods he said he will look the other way. My advice to avoiding TD1 is to just chat with your service guys and be friendly, they'll pay it forward by helping you keep your warranty when you mod your car.

[IanCH]

I am not following here....this would visually give it away that you have or had an aftermarket pulley on. To remove this 2 piece design you would still need to take it off and reinstall the stock pulley.

The APR pulley looks like a stock pulley with no markings or indications it is not the OEM pulley. The only way to tell the difference between the APR and stock would be to get a micrometer out and measure.

Isnt the difference pretty big though? it needs a different belt doesnt it?

[rs4dreams]

Isnt the difference pretty big though? it needs a different belt doesnt it?

Difference is less than 10%. It doesn't need a different belt, it just comes with one in case you need replacement due to mileage. I only had 15k miles on my stock belt when I got the pulley so I kept the one it came with for later.

[waffles]

Also I've heard you can't reinstall the stock pulley unless you physically press it onto the engine with a press...this sounds like a huge pain

[CasualObserver]

There is a tool APR sells I believe around $250.00 to allow you to remove the stock pulley. As far as installing the new one there is no press needed. All you need is a toaster oven. You heat the pully up and (in my case) slide it right on to the blower shaft (pro tip: wear oven kits). If you want I can loan you said puller for a deposit; as it currently gathers dust in my tool box.