PSA: P1388 - 6372 - Control Module Malfunction - DBW Throttle Monitoring – FIXED!

[apexit1]

I didn't contact APR 2 years ago because I wasn't sure where it was coming from. Hell my shop didn't even know, they had to take it to Audi and they said to start with replacing the ecu. So my shop told me to call apr because they though I would get a better answer. I spoke to an apr tech and he said to replace a wiring harness in the engine, there's only one in there. This was last winter. I have posted in this forum about this issue before. I emailed or PMed arin months ago letting him know of the issue when one of the other threads caught traction. I helped as much as my schedule allowed me to.

At then end of the day for as much testing that apr says they do this shouldn't have gotten past them. Arin can you tell us what it was? I don't understand how it got progressively worse to the point where even parking in the garage in the winter would give me issues. Hell I even posted a video showing me switching into the stock map and still getting the epc just by turning the wheel... I have a damn good reason to be upset

I'm sure there's spelling erroes but I'm not going to go back and fix them.

[will13k7]

I also asked cold start be turned back on.

I'm glad I don't need this update, I hate cold start! Would be nice if this was one of the customer options i.e. 91, 100, and "turn off cold start".

[integroid]

I'm glad I don't need this update, I hate cold start! Would be nice if this was one of the customer options i.e. 91, 100, and "turn off cold start".

Thanks Swank for f'ing that up for us. I also enjoyed cold start being off...especially in the AM.

[will13k7]

Thank Swank for f'ing that up for us. I also enjoyed cold start being off...especially in the AM.

um yeah, thanks Swank!

It sounded like APR had solid technical reasoning that supported leaving it off, no real reason mentioned why its on now... maybe it is messing something up?

[Arin@APR]

At then end of the day for as much testing that apr says they do this shouldn't have gotten past them. Arin can you tell us what it was?

Again, I'm sorry this happened. Believe me, I do care about making everything we sell perfect, which is why I bought this to everyones attention rather than privately contacting our customers. I know someone else will run into this issue, so I hope by making a thread, they can easily search the P-code and find the solution within.

On the notion of testing, even the OEM issues updates for their software from time to time. These ECUs are not simple. They're extremely complex and filled with loads of checks and balances. Also, I am aware of other tuners running into this issue. When people start looking for more power, if they've calibrated the correct maps, they'll trigger this fault in the right conditions. Personally, I'm just surprised it took this long to finally start popping up.

Unfortunately I can't tell what it was without giving away some IP at the moment. I hope everyone can understand that.

[Arin@APR]

It sounded like APR had solid technical reasoning that supported leaving it off, no real reason mentioned why its on now... maybe it is messing something up?

I asked for it to be turned on since people kept questioning why it was off.

If people want it off, eventually we'll set DPP up to have it as a clickable option. That way everyones happy. Want it on? Don't click the box. Want it off? Click the box.

[Deckdout2]

I like the option of the CS being on. It doesn't bother me. I try to sit for a min anyway before I take off, and screw my neighbors! ha

[mmmkam]

These ECUs are not simple. They're extremely complex and filled with loads of checks and balances. Also, I am aware of other tuners running into this issue. When people start looking for more power, if they've calibrated the correct maps, they'll trigger this fault in the right conditions. Personally, I'm just surprised it took this long to finally start popping up.

Unfortunately I can't tell what it was without giving away some IP at the moment. I hope everyone can understand that.

In retards to if it impacted B8.5 tunes:

Not that I'm aware of.

Arin,

I think its great everything got sorted out and this thread was started to relay the information you can, but I had a question in regards to the B8.5 files. Were those tunes actually checked to see if the same problem is there even though no B8.5 owners may have reported it? Since you cant detail the exact nature of the cause it wasn't clear if this is something you can proactively check the B8.5 tunes for, or if its something you would just have to troubleshoot if it ever did crop up on a B8.5 ECU.

[Arin@APR]

Were those tunes actually checked to see if the same problem is there even though no B8.5 owners may have reported it?

There isn't anything that can be 'checked' so to speak. You can't load the file and see if it's right or wrong. It's just a condition that needs to be met and currently I don't believe it's being met on the B8.5. However, since the mapping between the two vehicles in this regard are the same, they will eventually be changed as well.

[yourownhero]

Thanks Arin!

Confirmed with my local shop that they see the updated files ready for my box code. I have an appointment to be updated tomorrow.

[mmmkam]

There isn't anything that can be 'checked' so to speak. You can't load the file and see if it's right or wrong. It's just a condition that needs to be met and currently I don't believe it's being met on the B8.5. However, since the mapping between the two vehicles in this regard are the same, they will eventually be changed as well.

Thanks Arin.

[yourownhero]

Thanks Arin!

Confirmed with my local shop that they see the updated files ready for my box code. I have an appointment to be updated tomorrow.

Was just flashed and confirmed to v2.3

Thanks again Arin and APR!

[LIM1TED]

Arin when are the b8.5 guys going to be able to use the APR mobile app & dongle? Download our maps via APR mobile app and pay over it and flash on-the-go without ever going to a dealer to flash are cars?

[Arin@APR]

We're not going to do flashing over the dongle, but we eventually will have the dongle for the 3.0T platform.

[saxon]

We're not going to do flashing over the dongle, but we eventually will have the dongle for the 3.0T platform.

i dont see how you cant see the demand for this...

[Arin@APR]

i dont see how you cant see the demand for this...

I understand it, but there are many reasons why we would not do this.

[d.p]

I understand it, but there are many reasons why we would not do this.

$$$$$$$$

[Arin@APR]

$$$$$$$$

I'm not sure I follow.

[d.p]

I was saying money was one of the reasons.

[LIM1TED]

I understand it, but there are many reasons why we would not do this.

As long as people are not stupid and use to right equipment to flash a vehicles ECM. Why do we get punished for stupid people? Anyway APR could make much more money since its already a hassle to go to a dealer for a flash. Im a Porsche Technician at a Porsche dealership and every time I do a flash update via manufactures campaigns we have to use a 40+ Amp battery charger to ensure the proper voltage requirements. Just have a disclaimer saying if you dont keep a proper voltage on your ECM you run the risk of frying your ECM - Flash at your own risk. APR is already at risk changing MAPS via Bluetooth is a BIG no no......unless all the MAPS are preloaded on the ECM already.....

Charger: http://blackanddecker.com/power-tools/VEC1093DBD.aspx

[theKB]

how about frying your ECU? Who is on the hook if something like that happens. What if the connection to the server is lost mid burn and something happens? There are any number of things that could happen in the process and I would assume APR being a company that cares about offering quality reliable products does not have any interest in inserting a variable into the equation of how their products are distributed. Non of the big guys (APR, GIAC and to a lesser extent Stasis/Revo) offer this so why is everyone going after APR?

If I am not mistaken APR extracts the existing OEM file and stores it on their servers before flashing the APR software to the ECU. This is how the whole "flash back to stock" thing works since it is your original file being put back on there.

One could also assume that it is a precaution for protecting their IP as well.

[SwankPeRFection]

how about frying your ECU? Who is on the hook if something like that happens. What if the connection to the server is lost mid burn and something happens? There are any number of things that could happen in the process and I would assume APR being a company that cares about offering quality reliable products does not have any interest in inserting a variable into the equation of how their products are distributed. Non of the big guys (APR, GIAC and to a lesser extent Stasis/Revo) offer this so why is everyone going after APR?

If I am not mistaken APR extracts the existing OEM file and stores it on their servers before flashing the APR software to the ECU. This is how the whole "flash back to stock" thing works since it is your original file being put back on there.

One could also assume that it is a precaution for protecting their IP as well.

Everything you wrote can already happen at their dealer level. However, you don't flash an image file to the ECU that's not local. Who does that? That's a noob thing to say by someone who doesn't and hasn't ever flashed an ECU on a car.

All files are local to the PC being used. Your only variables are maintained voltage to the ECU due to the amount of time the ECU can take to flash and the chance of accidentally unplugging the cable or your PC crashes or something. The bottom line is this. People EVERY DAY update flashable systems left and right. Phones, EFIs on Macs, BIOSs on PC, etc. and very few failures happen. Flashing a car's ECU is no different, just a different system, that's all.

Things like turning off your Auto lights, closing the door on the car and turning off the dome light and HVAC and any other accessory and the battery will provide enough voltage to allow the flash. If you're worried, you hook it up to a charger just like you would when updating the MMI. It's just standard procedure.

Don't let them fool you. It's all about the money and nothing else. No worries, soon enough someone will release a complete solution like this. It's happened for other platforms and it's even available for B7 and earlier Audis already. The new ECU being more complex to break into via OBD2 port is the only thing limiting this, not anything else. Ironically, this complexity is the only safety net APR and GIAC have protecting their current solutions and business model.

[Arin@APR]

I'm not following the money comments. People are saying "APR, if you had this, I would buy it" and we are saying no because of money?

Right... Makes sense.

How bout we keep this thread on topic?

Thank you.

[SwankPeRFection]

Ya, well, pretty soon it will be about money... the lack there of. People will stop buying the tunes because they are detectable now. No more safety net for the customer who's not right next door to a tuner-dealer. I bet if you checked your sales demographics you'd see a decrease in expected sales in the past few years because of this exact issue. Audi will continue down their current path of pointing fingers at the tuner when something goes wrong (no matter the true cause of it). Unless you're willing to give the customer a solution to this problem, prepare for an increase in future sales. Audi's not going to back down.... you must be willing to step up and defeat their processes if you want to keep and gain new customers for your products. Like it or not, it is as simple as that.

Now back to your thread topic...

[drob23]

Ya, well, pretty soon it will be about money... the lack there of. People will stop buying the tunes because they are detectable now. No more safety net for the customer who's not right next door to a tuner-dealer. I bet if you checked your sales demographics you'd see a decrease in expected sales in the past few years because of this exact issue. Audi will continue down their current path of pointing fingers at the tuner when something goes wrong (no matter the true cause of it). Unless you're willing to give the customer a solution to this problem, prepare for an increase in future sales. Audi's not going to back down.... you must be willing to step up and defeat their processes if you want to keep and gain new customers for your products. Like it or not, it is as simple as that.

Now back to your thread topic...

Swank, I'm no economist and nor are you, but you must consider other variables into your value function - development cost (would not be trivial), loss revenue from pirating, added cost due to retard flashing errors, more expensive option because now you provide sophisticated hardware/software, loss of revenue from losing software/IP (you can't argue that this doesn't become worse). The market exists, people obviously want it, but they can't satisfy it. No one can. If they could do it in a beneficial "profitable" way, they would, there is no conspiracy. This isn't soviet Russia where Gorbachev is telling APR what they can and can't do. I'm sure they know the rough take rate on tunes, and can estimate volumes out there, and have lots of experience with competitive pricing.

Even fuzzy rabbit motorsports charges a lot for their flash (like 80% of APR?), and you have to ship them your ECU. You would think those kind of tuners would go out of their way to provide the solution you seek, if it was so easy...I have a friend who tuned his B5 with a pirated flash from someone else's hand-held, so there's a precedence for this in the VAG world.

You say people should vote with their wallet's, but the only viable alternative is _____

[SwankPeRFection]

It will eventually come drob23. The software and capability is already there. Other platforms have this and it's not putting tuners out of business. There's even an option for B7 cars to do this. There's no magic dance you have to do to flash via OBD2 port, just have to get past the software/hardware locks. Short of theft, there are no other concerns, but from past posts by GIAC and APR folks, they can't even read each other's flashes now, so what makes you think if their software/cables were in public hands it would be any different? Sure, someone could reverse engineer the software, but you don't give the end user your entire software package. They just need flash capability and security bypass protocols written to initiate the proper negotiation for that stupid ECU to think it's being flashed by a legitimate tool.

When it's all said and done, the most you might lose is the negotiation protocol you wrote to fool the ECU. There's about a billion different ways to secure the handheld and its on-board software and the maps you have on it and load, etc. A simple example of this is other flash encryption technologies used on crypto flash drives. Those are basic but they check routines before allowing access to contents by the controller, etc. Some can even be access encrypted. It's all on how you design the thing and it won't take millions to develop. We've discussed all this about a billion times and each time it's the same excuses and made up lies. Right now it's not profitable to them and from the looks of it, existing tune logics may already be somewhat of a house of cards in a way. Hence this thread existing. I'm still patiently waiting for that GIAC or EPL or REVO thread to pop up with this same problem. Arin promised it would happen.... Maybe next Christmas.

[theKB]

Everything you wrote can already happen at their dealer level. However, you don't flash an image file to the ECU that's not local. Who does that? That's a noob thing to say by someone who doesn't and hasn't ever flashed an ECU on a car.

Riiiiiight noob thing to say.

That is why you are required to have a broadband connection to flash any car with APR software and to be connected to their servers. I get this from an IP perspective and also for other reasons. Maybe some of the basement tuners will be offering DIY tuning but you won't see any of the big ones putting their IP/product at risk.

And yes it can happen at the dealer level but then it's not a user problem, it's a dealer/APR problem which removes more variables from the equation.

If I was APR, I wouldn't change a thing. When people start to get into the Eurodyn type route with custom setups I can see the need to be able to flash on the fly but for the once or twice a year one may need to visit the dealer it doesn't make sense to invest in the infrastructure and the other rats nets of problems for people to DIY at home.

Also all this screaming for "custom" tunes without a custom setup makes zero sense. But hey whatever floats your boat.

[SwankPeRFection]

The broadband connection is used for downloading and uploading your images. It could also be used for verifying signatures on the ECUs, etc. However, if APR's setup is such that it requires an uninterrupted connection during the actual flash process, that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard of and definitely NOT what you want to do. It's too risky to do it that way and if they're limited to that by the flashing process they've devised, then it's no wonder they doubt the ability of their technology to be used by the general public. Hell, not even the Audi flashing tools work like this. They'll verify files and download the appropriate flash, but once it's actually flashing, the only two things that need to be solid and connected is the laptop/flashing device and the ECU. Anything less and you're just asking for problems.

[BillyG]

The broadband connection is used for downloading and uploading your images. It could also be used for verifying signatures on the ECUs, etc. However, if APR's setup is such that it requires an uninterrupted connection during the actual flash process, that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard of and definitely NOT what you want to do. It's too risky to do it that way and if they're limited to that by the flashing process they've devised, then it's no wonder they doubt the ability of their technology to be used by the general public. Hell, not even the Audi flashing tools work like this. They'll verify files and download the appropriate flash, but once it's actually flashing, the only two things that need to be solid and connected is the laptop/flashing device and the ECU. Anything less and you're just asking for problems.

Do you really think that your whining like a little girl is going to change APR's already very successful business model? Holy dogcrap, I'm so sick of you taking over threads with your whining and bitching. I'm sure that APR and other vendors are praying that you don't buy their products. Oh wait, Eurocode already confirmed this. Chill the frak out, and how about you stop hijacking threads and ruining this forum for people who actually enjoy gaining knowledge from reading these posts? And I'm not going to get into a flame war with you, I've said my piece and let's let this thread get back on topic.

[FlyGti]

Do you really think that your whining like a little girl is going to change APR's already very successful business model? Holy dogcrap, I'm so sick of you taking over threads with your whining and bitching. I'm sure that APR and other vendors are praying that you don't buy their products. Oh wait, Eurocode already confirmed this. Chill the frak out, and how about you stop hijacking threads and ruining this forum for people who actually enjoy gaining knowledge from reading these posts? And I'm not going to get into a flame war with you, I've said my piece and let's let this thread get back on topic.

This forum would be a much better place without him.

[levigarrett]

This forum would be a much better place without him.

I don't think that's the case at all. I generally read Swank's posts with interest and I think he routinely contributes positively. However, in this case ONLY, his petulance seems overboard and has been for a while now. I'm really not sure why despite his numerous explanations. It's starting to look like a crusade instead of honest inquisitiveness.

I'm not tuned and have no dog in this but I've followed this issue quietly since the thread materialized. If I were an APR customer or perspective customer, I think I'd be pleased with how this has been handled. I would not expect APR to release proprietary technical data EVER, particularly in situations like this.

[saxon]

Who ever thinks this dealer network is great for a consumer is brain washed and most likely had many past vw/audis

There are many people getting into these cars who were into tuner cars and have certain expectations of products

If the flash is perfect for all cars fine, I'll accept that but give me the ability to flash at home and not drive two hours for an update or to be flashed back to stock

Not that I care I don't have their flash and don't plan on getting it. I've found a company who listens to their customers

[levigarrett]

Who ever thinks this dealer network is great for a consumer is brain washed and most likely had many past vw/audis

There are many people getting into these cars who were into tuner cars and have certain expectations of products

If the flash is perfect for all cars fine, I'll accept that but give me the ability to flash at home and not drive two hours for an update or to be flashed back to stock

Not that I care I don't have their flash and don't plan on getting it. I've found a company who listens to their customers

The product you want does not exist. I get that. But why is that? If there was a robust demand for the product the way you want it, I suspect it would be available. I think the problem here is; 1. Audi and their fierce aversion to aftermarket mods and 2. It appears that of the thousand upon thousand of cars sold, there just isn't enough interest in the marketplace to justify the expense needed to develop the product.

This is not my first Audi. I have never tuned one and I'm not sure I'll tune in the future. AZ is a mod heavy forum. I think reading this forum gives the wrong impression. I have friends with performance Audi's, none of them have aftermarket tunes. I just don't think they're that popular in this platform the way AZ would lead one to believe.

Where's that whole "pay to play" mantra the gets pushed so heavily here when we need it?

[drob23]

This forum would be a much better place without him.

Like him or not, agree with him or not, swank is a good guy to have here.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

[sidthafish]

Do you really think that your whining like a little girl is going to change APR's already very successful business model? Holy dogcrap, I'm so sick of you taking over threads with your whining and bitching. I'm sure that APR and other vendors are praying that you don't buy their products. Oh wait, Eurocode already confirmed this. Chill the frak out, and how about you stop hijacking threads and ruining this forum for people who actually enjoy gaining knowledge from reading these posts? And I'm not going to get into a flame war with you, I've said my piece and let's let this thread get back on topic.

At least Swank is an honest broker unlike a lot of the cats on here that stroke these vendors everytime they post. It's not like it is black magic and voodoo to flash an ECU. It's not rocket surgery. There are plenty of other tuning companies on other vehicles that seem to trust the user to flash their own ECUs. I don't see what makes Audi so special. The excuse of "Well, you can do it cuz...umm...cuz you just can't" is ridiculous at best. The point being made here is that there would be more revenue generated from creating and selling a dongle/handheld/tethered tuning device that the user can flash their own ECU with. Having to take your vehicle to a dealer for a flash in this digital age is inconvenient and ridiculous.

[LIM1TED]

At least Swank is an honest broker unlike a lot of the cats on here that stroke these vendors everytime they post. It's not like it is black magic and voodoo to flash an ECU. It's not rocket surgery. There are plenty of other tuning companies on other vehicles that seem to trust the user to flash their own ECUs. I don't see what makes Audi so special. The excuse of "Well, you can do it cuz...umm...cuz you just can't" is ridiculous at best. The point being made here is that there would be more revenue generated from creating and selling a dongle/handheld/tethered tuning device that the user can flash their own ECU with. Having to take your vehicle to a dealer for a flash in this digital age is inconvenient and ridiculous.

Amen!

[mmmkam]

At least Swank is an honest broker unlike a lot of the cats on here that stroke these vendors everytime they post. It's not like it is black magic and voodoo to flash an ECU. It's not rocket surgery. There are plenty of other tuning companies on other vehicles that seem to trust the user to flash their own ECUs. I don't see what makes Audi so special. The excuse of "Well, you can do it cuz...umm...cuz you just can't" is ridiculous at best. The point being made here is that there would be more revenue generated from creating and selling a dongle/handheld/tethered tuning device that the user can flash their own ECU with. Having to take your vehicle to a dealer for a flash in this digital age is inconvenient and ridiculous.

+1

[adbender]

Arin...just flashed to v2.3.

Cold start is back and all my troubles are gone! Starts up like a charm in -10 C weather whereas before it was giving me trouble below +10 C.

Thanks for looking after this...

[chevelle71]

Do we have to email Arin our vin#? I have an appointment Monday and wondering if the update will be available.

[Arin@APR]

Do we have to email Arin our vin#? I have an appointment Monday and wondering if the update will be available.

PM me your vin and I'll check.