Nate's 2.0L GTX2867R Progress Thread

[Nateness]

I'm starting this thread to track the progress of my GTX2867R setup and get the community's feedback on how I may improve the performance.


Engine Block:
06A Block
82.5mm JE 9.0:1 pistons
2.0T FSI 92.8mm crankshaft
Eurosport rods (which I believe is made at the same factory/foundry as Scat rods)


Head:
AEB Head with AWM VVT retained
+1mm SS Intake Valves
+1mm Inconel Exhaust Valves
Supertech "High Lift" Valve Springs and Ti Retainers
APR Head Bolts
Frankenturbo "Martindale" Intake Camshaft ~210 Duration & ~8.38mm Lift
Frankenturbo "Martindale" Exhaust Camshaft ~205 Duration & ~10.16mm Lift
Catcams Adjustable Cam Gear


Ignition:
2.0T Ignition Coils


Turbo:
Garrett GTX2867R
0.64 A/R T25 Exhaust Housing


Intake:
APR Carbonio Air Box (modified to accommodate larger MAF)
85mm 034 Billet MAF Housing
APR Stage 3+ turbo inlet piping
034 Phenolic Intake Manifold Gasket/Spacer
AEB Stock Intake Manifold
ER Competition FMIC
Synapse Diverter Valve


Exhaust:
APR Stage 3+ Inconel Exhaust Manifold
APR Stage 3+ HFC
034 3" Turbo-Back Exhaust with Dual Muffler Option


Fueling:
Bosch EV14 550CC Injectors
034 Billet Fuel Rail
Bosch 044 Fuel Pump


Tuning:
Factory ME7 ECU with 034 custom dyno tuning


Picture from the GTX Install:



Dynographs:
11-25-2013 283 AWHP & 266 AWTQ @ 22 PSI & 91 Octane

[BrucexL33]

damn! can't wait to see some pics!

[zandrew]

Looks awesome but I thought the GTX2867 was supposed to be a bit better then the GT2871R? By the looks the 2867 spools no faster and others have broke 300AWHP at similiar psi with the 2871. It held boost damn good though.

Not trying to piss on your thread or your build but a lot of that seems like over kill for the power your making. You have future goals?

[Seerlah]

91 craptane at 22psi on the 034 dyno. Numbers seem just about correct. But everything can be improved. Throw on some meth with more boost/timing. You can also rev out to 8.5k rpm and the graph stops at 7k. And you have cams. But I see the hp taper off anyways. The .82 A/R housing should help you out here, but I would see what meth can do first. Reason being, you are guarantee more power that way (tune dependent).

And this is why you haven't posted in a while? Secret builds, eh ? And what are your plans when smog testing comes around?

[demonmk2]

I agree^^^.... You need a more aggressive tune and
Maybe bigger injectors.
That number is way to low for that turbo.
It would be interesting to see what a UM 630 tune
and a vr6 or bigger throttle body. I bet the whp would be a lot higher.

[redline380]

The .82 A/R housing should help you out here

That's the one thing I'd change about my setup as it is now. Stay away from the housing IMO. Full boost only hits at about 5.3k or so in first. On my dyno graph, which was taken in fourth gear, didn't max boost till 4.6k. I would love to get that number to around 4.5k in first

[Nateness]

My goal is to max out the GTX2867R on 91 octane without chemical additives. So far, 034 has told me that they would rather run more aggressive ignition timing with only 22 PSI than increase the boost pressure, so I'm looking for ideas to get more power out of this setup. My hope is to get close to 350 AWHP while sticking to 91 octane, though this may be overly ambitious.

Recently, 034 has replaced their old dynomite dyno with a mustang dyno. Their new mustang dyno seems to report lower numbers than before. For example, my previous Frankenturbo F21 setup put out ~235 AWHP on their old dyno. With no changes to hardware or software, their new dyno shows ~210 AWHP, so the discrepancy with the smaller F21 turbo was ~25 AWHP... See below for a comparison:

Dyno comparison between my previous setup with F21 turbo (same block, head, cams, etc.) vs. the GTX2867R:


Previous dyno with F21 @ 20 PSI, 91 octane, same block, head, etc.


For reference here is a recent dynograph from the 034 dyno for a 1.8T FWD small port GTI with GTX2867R @ 18 PSI, 91 octane, and the new 034 high-flow intake manifold:


I'm not sure if any hard conclusions can be made from this comparison other than their new dyno tends to report lower numbers. I'm waiting for a friend with a 1.9L HTA2868 to hit the 034 dyno soon to see how his numbers compare to mine. We may end up making the journey to find an AWD dynojet to see if there is a difference.

Looks awesome but I thought the GTX2867 was supposed to be a bit better then the GT2871R? By the looks the 2867 spools no faster and others have broke 300AWHP at similiar psi with the 2871. It held boost damn good though.

Not trying to piss on your thread or your build but a lot of that seems like over kill for the power your making. You have future goals?

[Nateness]

Since I'm trying to stick to straight 91 octane from the pump, it seems like my options to increase power output are pretty limited. 034 has been pretty adamant that this setup outputs more power with 22 PSI and more aggressive ignition timing rather than increasing the boost and living with less aggressive timing.

I'm thinking about trying out the new IE intake manifold with the 70mm S4 throttle body. The intake and exhaust cams that are currently installed are very mild; the intake cam is just barely more aggressive than the Autotech intake cam, so I might also change the intake cam for something more aggressive, like the CAT 3651 or the Piper "Ultimate Road" intake cam.

It took a while to get all of the parts together and the results are not that exciting, so it didn't seem urgent to share the project. It's nice to share data though, so hopefully others with similar setups can share their thoughts on how to get more out of the GTX on straight 91 octane.

91 craptane at 22psi on the 034 dyno. Numbers seem just about correct. But everything can be improved. Throw on some meth with more boost/timing. You can also rev out to 8.5k rpm and the graph stops at 7k. And you have cams. But I see the hp taper off anyways. The .82 A/R housing should help you out here, but I would see what meth can do first. Reason being, you are guarantee more power that way (tune dependent).

And this is why you haven't posted in a while? Secret builds, eh ? And what are your plans when smog testing comes around?

[thenj3]

larger cams will help those cams you have now aren't that aggressive at all. i think you would benefit greatly from more boost. from what i've seen with the gtx turbos on various platforms, is that they love higher boost pressure. as others have mentioned that exhaust housing is a bottleneck, especially in a t25 setup.

[Seerlah]

Power is made with ignition timing. But asking for 350whp on 91 octane is a pretty ambitious goal. If you already have your plans and 034 said how they want to go about it, just stick with it and post up new numbers when they come in.

Aaron also has a point. Those turbos love higher boost pressures. RAI ran one at like 30psi or so. Can't remember what octane, but I'll try and find the post. The power band was retarded (not really street friendly), but I think they were just testing out the turbo to see what it was capable of at this time...I think.

edit: found it...http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...=GTX3071R+dyno

[redline380]

It took a while to get all of the parts together and the results are not that exciting

You hit the nail on the head here. There were some parts you could have kept out and simply went with a larger turbo, like a 3071/76, and gotten more power and more fun. However, the extra stuff, namely the head parts, are only going help down the road and give you a little more security with the build as a whole

[zandrew]

I am not trying to knock the build cause its nice and it looks like your setup for something bigger down the road but I have seen GT3071 dynos with comparable spool and more top end. All those lovely parts and pieces just begging for something more.

The comp turbo I have (which blew its seals) is using the .86 AR housing and I dislike it. I have not had the chance to change it to the .64 yet but that is my intentions. The other turbos I have run the .64 on when the boost started to build it hit hard and came on fast. Once it 2psi within 500RPM it was at 10psi and climbing fast. The .86 gives the turbo a more linear feel and once it hits 2psi its another 1000RPM before I hit 10psi wit an EBC (not the N75). I am not saying that is how the .86 would react with the 2867 but from my expierences its not something I like. However I currently can not rev out to 8K which would give me a 4000 RPM window with above 10psi.

I don't know if it is option but they also make .63 AR in a T25 flange but it is actually a T3 turbine housing. It is supposed to eliminate the hot side bottleneck and also allow the boost to come on hard. I would consider it but it uses a differnt flange design. This is what I am referring to:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Garrett-T25-...#ht_1529wt_649

[Seerlah]

^To run that housing you would need a T25 manifold that has an EWG port/flange. The APR manifold OP is running does not have this.

And was venturing Audizine and remembered this person from the B7 section (drumnjuny). He has a 2L FSI engine, he self tuned his car, and these are the numbers he put down on the same turbo. Not sure if meth was involved.

Arjun's Ibis B7 2.0TQ-S GTX2867R

talk is cheap:
.86A/R - 415awhp/371awtq @ 34psi (93 oct)
.64A/R - 404awhp/355awtq @ 30psi (91 oct)

[zandrew]

Seerlah I know the housing is not compatible with what he has but they do make other manifolds. I don't know if you have run the .86 housings but I alot of people mention them and they have not tried them. The majority of people I know that has went from .64 to .86 went back to .64.

My point in mentioning the GT3071 was not so much the difference in hp but more so the comparable hp potential, no bottleneck, and better high rpm power potential. You can keep adding bigger compressors but the GT28 turbine can only handle so much and at 400AWHP it would be working the dog piss out of it. A good comparison is that the 56 trim GT2871R (which uses the same compressor as the GT3071) can make 350AWHP on the A4. The GT3071 can make 400AWHP. I would think a turbo with a GT30 turbine would be able to make better usage of all the parts in the build while not losing the spool. (something like GTX3071R but I don't know if they make them in WG version)

Hell its been awhile since I been on here. Shit might have changed since then.

[Nateness]

I'm sticking with T25 and internal waste gate to keep the engine bay appearing OEM-like (similar to Bische's setup in the B6 section since his Euro inspection is similar to what we have here), so that's why I'm not running something larger. I thought about running the HTA2871R for a while, but I've had terrible experience with FP's customer service so I went with GTX instead.

I saw Arjun's thread a while back, but it's hard to draw conclusions from his data since the 2.0L FSI is not exactly an apples to apples comparison with a stroked/bored 1.8T with AEB head. I'm a little skeptical that 30 PSI on 91 octane without water or methanol injection will hold up well under actual daily driving conditions. 034's argument was that they capped the boost at 22 PSI so that they could run more aggressive ignition timing instead. A friend of mine who moved down to CA had English Racing re-tune his Evo for 91 octane and they set his boost pressure to ~22 PSI (stock TD05HR), so there seems to be some consensus from reputable west-coast tuning houses on tuning philosophy for CA 91 octane.

Any opinions on CAT 3651 vs. Piper Ultimate Road intake cams? The Piper Ultimate Road intake cam is a little more aggressive, but I'm worried that I won't be able to run VVT with it.


At this point, I'm probably going to wait until the IE intake manifold is available before I try any changes to the tune. Since I'm going to change the size of the throttle body and potentially the intake cam profile, it's inevitable that I will need a re-tune anyways.

[zandrew]

I get it now. I never put the Cal smog nazi into the equation. Not that I am trying to twist your arm but they do make a WG version of the GT3071R that would drop into your application. They also make a GT3076R WG version and if you wanted I am sure you could get a GTX3071R in a WG version.

It would be interesting to see the GTX2867 maxed out though. You got outside pictures as well?

[demonmk2]

Why can't you bump the psi to 25 and see
What difference that makes?

[Seerlah]

The thing with tuning is to add timing for the boost he has. After that, up the boost, check for fueling, and add more timing. So forth and so forth to a point. That was the process with my tuning, and we were tuning for 27psi on 93 octane (could have easily been done), but I told him I wanted to stop at 25psi till I add more supporting mods (ie built head, secure the crank gear, larger plenum IM, 3" downpipe, etc). 22psi on 91 I feel is just a start, and you should up the boost and timing from there to see what you can squeeze out before something like juice is needed. Pretty sure 034 has the same thing in mind, unless they plan on just stopping at 22psi. If that is the case, I don't see much more power being made. Just an opinion. None the less, solid build. Now it is all about the tune.

[Mawhitey]

The GTX's need to be pushed higher to make power, the compressor maps show this. However 1.8t's prefer less boost and more timing as a rule, so the 2 almost cancel one another out. Good luck in your pursuit of your goal, but i fear you may fall short

[demonmk2]

wounder if 630 injectors would be a better option than 550's with your power goals
And that size turbo.
I plan on running that turbo, just ordered 630 injectors but I'm AEB but I am
Using the same exhaust manifold with milltek 2.75 full exhaust.
I'm hoping to get a custom tune and still comply with obd2 standards.
My goal is 400 whp***ish*** lol but I think I can get 375 which I'll be happy with.
I'll be running a bolt on water/meth injection but it will not be tuned for it.

[zandrew]

wounder if 630 injectors would be a better option than 550's with your power goals
And that size turbo.
I plan on running that turbo, just ordered 630 injectors but I'm AEB but I am
Using the same exhaust manifold with milltek 2.75 full exhaust.
I'm hoping to get a custom tune and still comply with obd2 standards.
My goal is 400 whp***ish*** lol but I think I can get 375 which I'll be happy with.
I'll be running a bolt on water/meth injection but it will not be tuned for it.

I'm not trying to hurt your feelings BUT the GT2867R is not well suted for 400AWHP or even 400 FWHP. If you compare the compressor maps the GT2871R and GT2867R flow very similiar amounts. The GTX2867R can flow at higher psi and that is the only true benefit of its billet compressor. (funny thing though is that Garrett compressor maps for the 2871R ends at 120,000 RPM. The compressor is identical to the GT3071R which on its map shows 50lb min and the 2871 shows 45 lb min. If you look at both maps they are same except they show the 3071 at higher shaft speed. There are other GT28 turbine that shows shaft speeds up to 165000rpm [the bigger GT28 turbine as their is 2 different sized GT28 turbines]so I don't think its the shaft speed but the actual higher flow rate of the 2871 that Garrett limits their 2871 flow to 45lb min which is not enough to push 375whp with on pump) Unless you plan on Meth or race gas the GT2871R is just as good the as the GTX2867R. The turbines are the exact same as is the bearings etc. The only difference is the Compressor housing and compressor.

The GT28 turbine gets you to 350AWHP somewhat safely. That is the most I have seen on one in an Audi and it was built completely. For any goal above 350AWHP the GT30 series turbos are better suited. I think I mentioned it above but the 56 trim GT2871R has mae 350AWHP. The GT3071R which uses the same compressor with a larger turbine is good for 400AWHP. If it were me I would be interested in the GTX3071R as it is rated at 55lb min and should still be very responsive. You can actually get it in a internal wastegate option.

[demonmk2]

I guess we'll see ( I don't know )
That's one of the reasons why I said I was expecting 375 but 350 is not bad.
I read a while back a vw gti 1.8t with a gt2860rs made 395 who but I do think it
Was high octane tune with method. I've been trying to find it but have been unsucsessfull
in find the link. ( for comparison, anything is possible and yes I know fwhp is more than awhp)
I don't want a laggy turbo which is why I'm not going with a gt30 style turbo.
I'll guesstamating running about 26-28 psi.

[demonmk2]

this is a comparison to the gt3071r (blue)
all around I cant see how someone would say the gt3071 is better...
low end boost/power band is way better and that's what I want. ( I plan on tracking the car**sometimes)

[demonmk2]

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...gtx2867r-spool

[demonmk2]

I found that link hope it helps with any comparisons people may want to look at, they're a lot of graphs.

[zandrew]

this is a comparison to the gt3071r (blue)
all around I cant see how someone would say the gt3071 is better...
low end boost/power band is way better and that's what I want. ( I plan on tracking the car**sometimes)

Compressor is simply one part of the equation. The turbine is actually the major limiting factor when it comes to hp potential. You can mate a compressor that makes 50lb min which theoretically should produce 500hp but if your turbine can only handle 35ln min flow your stuck at that which is only 350hp and you leave the rest of the compressor potential on the table. This is why I suggested the difference between the GT3071R and the GT2871R since the only difference between the 2 is the turbine itself.

If you research you will find that the GT3071R does not give up that much spool (powerband), if any to the turbo you mentioned. There are GT3071R dyno that show similiar spool as the GT2867R and even the GT2871R. Its all in the build and tune.

The 350AWHP build I know of using the GT2871 was by 034 motorsports and it was built completely with a 2.0 block. Even with 45lb min of flow it would be very hard to make 350AWHP without meth due to drivetrain loss.

Also there is 3 different 71 compressors. There is a 48 trim, 52 trim, and 56 trim. The comparison you posted does not show the full map. By using an oversized compressor on an undersized turbine you can and will encounter pumping loss which robs hp directly from the crank.

Even the GT3071R dyno I am referring to that broke 400whp was a well thought out and executed build as is the GT2871R build. I would think the AWHP range for these are closer to 325AWHP for the GT2871R and 375AWHP for the GT3071R.



I am not trying to discourage you at all. If you are dead set on 350AWHP I would wait on Nate to finish his build and see where he gets and base off of that.

[Seerlah]

400whp is not as easy to get as people may think. 350whp, yeah. 400whp is a different story with 1.8-2L of displacement. Well, it is easy. Just not cheap.

[Nateness]

After talking with some of the locals who've had similar setups tuned by 034, it seems pretty common for them to cap the boost pressure on 28-series turbos to around 22 PSI and advance the ignition as much as they can. For example, there was a B5 A4 with a HTA2868 where the 034 tuner kept peak boost pressure at 22 PSI. I've asked the guys at 034 if they actually tried running my setup at higher pressure, just to see if there is any power being left on the table given the GTX2867R's higher mechanical efficiency. They haven't responded, but I'll see if they will humor me next time I run by their shop.

In the meantime, I'm contemplating whether or not to change my intake camshaft. I already have an adjustable cam gear, so perhaps a more sporting cam profile and some additional tuning may get me closer to at least ~300 AWHP on 034's dyno. However, I don't want to sacrifice area under the curve. Below are options that I'm considering:


1. Keep the Martindale intake camshaft that I have now: ~210* duration & ~8.4mm lift. Note: currently in use with VVT. For reference, the OEM intake camshaft is 190* duration & 7.6mm lift. I did a before and after dyno with the Martindale intake and exhaust camshafts with my old F21 setup and the 034 dyno showed no change in power. It's hard to say whether or not these cams are a benefit on the larger GTX turbo, but I suspect that they don't hurt performance vs. the OEM cams.

2. CAT 3651 intake camshaft: 245* duration & 8.25mm lift. Note: advertised as compatible with VVT.

3. CAT 3653 intake camshaft: 239* duration & 8.8mm lift. Not sure if this can be used with VVT, but I suspect not.

4. Integrated Engineering intake camshaft: 249* duration & 8.26mm lift. Not sure if this can be used with VVT.

5. Piper "Fast Road" intake camshaft: 252* duration & 8.26mm lift. Waiting to hear back on whether or not this can be used with VVT.

6. Piper "Ultimate Road" intake camshaft: 256* duration & 8.69mm lift. Waiting to hear back on whether or not this can be used with VVT, but I suspect not.

[demonmk2]

What will your read line be?

[thenj3]

400whp is not as easy to get as people may think. 350whp, yeah. 400whp is a different story with 1.8-2L of displacement. Well, it is easy. Just not cheap.

and that shows why modding these cars is pointless...

[Nateness]

The redline is flexible. I have the valve train hardware and custom ME7 tuning available.

What will your read line be?

[Nateness]

You said it... My RX7 is still way faster with less overall cost... The rotary has definitely been more reliable too, lol.

and that shows why modding these cars is pointless...

[Seerlah]

and that shows why modding these cars is pointless...

If chasing high horsepower, I would say yes for a street car. But for someone like me, it is very suitable. No other 4 cylinder AWD classy car that is tuner friendly that I know of. I too am chasing 400whp. But that is more of a goal, as I am rather pleased with my car at it's current state. Just want to utilize the turbo I have, and that costs money.

[zandrew]

making the 400awhp is easy. making it dependable is whats hard. I don't think modding these cars is pointless. They have a range that is fairly easy to achieve but beyond that it gets increasingly difficult and more costly. I constantly wish I'd had just kept gt2871r now. Once you go bigger you can't go back. It's like herion, the only way it ends is in a wreck. ...

[demonmk2]

Updates!!!???

[viceprp]

This turbo is made for High boost levels. If you want to get more out of your setup without adding meth then you will need larger cams and injectors. CAT 3658's or 3664, IE V2 or Piper are my choice. The Piper's will yield the lowest power of the three. Does cali offer E85?

[Nateness]

Updates!!!???

I spoke w/ 034 about the tune and they confirmed that the engine did not make more power at higher boost pressure. So a re-tune without any hardware changes is a dead end.

I followed up with Doug @ Frankenturbo to talk more about his cams and he made the suggestion to switch to the IE CVA3 intake camshaft and to return to the stock exhaust camshaft. So I am making arrangements to install both in the near future and have 034 re-tune using the adjustable cam gear and tweaking the software as necessary.

[Nateness]

My 550 injectors still have plenty of headroom left, so they're not the limiting factor here. I have not seen E85 in CA, but I wouldn't use it if I did see it. My objective is to run off of plain California 91 octane from any pump in the state.

This turbo is made for High boost levels. If you want to get more out of your setup without adding meth then you will need larger cams and injectors. CAT 3658's or 3664, IE V2 or Piper are my choice. The Piper's will yield the lowest power of the three. Does cali offer E85?

[M-Hood]

This turbo is made for High boost levels. If you want to get more out of your setup without adding meth then you will need larger cams and injectors. CAT 3658's or 3664, IE V2 or Piper are my choice. The Piper's will yield the lowest power of the three. Does cali offer E85?

Don't really need a cam set with high duration for the GTX he has, just a mild intake cam with a good amount more lift then stock and the stock exhaust cam should be plenty. Duration isn't the only way to get more air into the motor, more lift does that too. Even Bob started offering a CAT mild intake cam with a stock exhaust cam as a set for people running a BT.

There are plenty people running the smaller CAT cams with 30r size turbos, pretty sure Jet Jockey runs one of the smaller CAT cams on his race car and Jake took the CAT 58's out of his B6 with the 30r and put the smaller CAT cams in. Larger doesn't always mean more power.

[demonmk2]

^^very useful information, thank you