C7 A6/A7 3.0T - APR Stage 2 Info

[Wusty]

I thought I'd start a new thread so it could be referenced for future inquiries as I searched pretty thoroughly on the zine & Google and couldn't find much. I'm looking to do an APR Stage 2 tune & pulley upgrade on my new 14' A6 3.0T. I had the same setup on my 13' S4 and absolutely loved it. Before I get it done I was trying to get some feedback from people that have already done it. Any issues? Has the power increase been noticeable? Stage 1 for me on my S4 wasn't to noticeable but stage 2 definitely was and I found very worth it. Also, if anyone has C7 A6/A7 dyno's, HP & TQ gain over stock figures? 0-60 & 1/4 mile times, that would be awesome. APR's website only has dyno's & stats for the B8 S4 for Stage 2 which I'm assuming will be close but with DSG vs Tip trans I wanted to see if anyone has real results. I did see there was a C6.5 A6 3.0T that logged a 4.37 second 0-60 & 12.6 quarter mile time running APR Stage 2. Thanks guys!

[Brent91]

I have an A7 with APR stage 2. I went 12.40 @112 mph in the summer heat. I bet it will be quicker on a nice 40 degree night
I picked up about 90 hp to the wheels if I remember correctly ....the car rips for about $2200 it's worth it

[Wusty]

I have an A7 with APR stage 2. I went 12.40 @112 mph in the summer heat. I bet it will be quicker on a nice 40 degree night
I picked up about 90 hp to the wheels if I remember correctly ....the car rips for about $2200 it's worth it

Great feedback & 1/4 mile time for sure. Glad to hear it's power you can feel.

[jrsAudiA6]

I have the GIAC stage 2 tune and could feel the effects right away. I do not have any drag numbers yet but hopefully will in the near future. Based on the dyno numbers I have about 336 whp and 319 wtq. That is about 22 HP and 10 TQ gain over stage 1. My seat of the pants seems to feel there is more than the numbers indicate, possibly since the dyno's were done over year apart. In any case love the stage 2 tune.

[Wusty]

I have the GIAC stage 2 tune and could feel the effects right away. I do not have any drag numbers yet but hopefully will in the near future. Based on the dyno numbers I have about 336 whp and 319 wtq. That is about 22 HP and 10 TQ gain over stage 1. My seat of the pants seems to feel there is more than the numbers indicate, possibly since the dyno's were done over year apart. In any case love the stage 2 tune.

Did you mean 436 AWHP & 419 AWTQ? APR's Stock C7 A6/A7 dyno's at 294 AWHP & 320 AWTQ which would mean your GIAC Stage 2 car dyno's at less than stock. APR's Stage 2 Tune & Pulley upgrade adds 108 AWHP & 80 AWTQ putting it at 402 AWHP / 400 AWTQ. To the crank depending on how you convert it that's 450+ HP/TQ running APR Stage 2.

[jrsAudiA6]

Did you mean 436 AWHP & 419 AWTQ? APR's Stock C7 A6/A7 dyno's at 294 AWHP & 320 AWTQ which would mean your GIAC Stage 2 car dyno's at less than stock. APR's Stage 2 Tune & Pulley upgrade adds 108 AWHP & 80 AWTQ putting it at 402 AWHP / 400 AWTQ. To the crank depending on how you convert it that's 450+ HP/TQ running APR Stage 2.

The numbers I provided are from the Mustang 500 dyno used by GMG Motorsports. My original stock numbers are 244 awhp and 272 awtq. Now the stock numbers reported by GIAC for A7 test vehicle are 281 awhp and 296 awtq. After the stage 1 tune my numbers as measured by GMG are 316 awhp and 312 awtq for gains of 72 hp and 40 tq. My numbers are about 10 - 12% lower than GIAC's numbers and APR numbers probably due to the differences in the dyno's. What I concerned myself with are differential numbers. When looking at the plots the max HP gain is about 95hp and 53 tq from stage 1. These gain are near redline. The tune HP increases all the way to redline and the torque does not fall off as much near redline. The stage 2 tune max gains from my dyno plots are about 22 HP and 20 TQ. When you convert to crank HP/TQ numbers I use a powertrain loss of 25%. According to GMG that is very close to the actual loss based on their measurements. So my crank numbers would be 448 HP and 425 TQ. Hope this better explains my numbers. I really do not concern myself with trying to compare absolute numbers with someone else's numbers unless you are able to use the same dyno.

[Wusty]

So my crank numbers would be 448 HP and 425 TQ. Hope this better explains my numbers. I really do not concern myself with trying to compare absolute numbers with someone else's numbers unless you are able to use the same dyno.

Agreed. Comparing the numbers when not on the same dyno with the same weather conditions doesn't really work. Thanks for the info. I bet your car is a blast to drive, I look forward to getting mine done.

[jrsAudiA6]

You bet it is especially on the track!!!!!

[cramazing]

do you have an exhaust?
if not do you plan to get one and which one?

You bet it is especially on the track!!!!!

[jrsAudiA6]

do you have an exhaust?
if not do you plan to get one and which one?

No exhaust yet but will be working with son-in-law on one in the future.

[king12sky]

How did you guys get such high numbers. Im on Stage 2+ and im nowhere near those crank numbers you guys have. lol!

[Wusty]

How did you guys get such high numbers. Im on Stage 2+ and im nowhere near those crank numbers you guys have. lol!

The Stage 2 numbers based on vendor, car being tuned, dyno, weather, altitudes, etc. vary SO much it is super hard to know what a good average is. I would guesstimate APR & GIAC Stage 2 see crank numbers between 400-450 HP/TQ. That's my 2 cents on guessing at least.

[Brooklyn]

I've been meaning to do some in-depth research on the different types of HP/TQ numbers. Which one is the most accurate without having to do a bunch of loss calculations?

[Wusty]

I've been meaning to do some in-depth research on the different types of HP/TQ numbers. Which one is the most accurate without having to do a bunch of loss calculations?

Keeping it simple, add 15%-25% to the "wheel" figures to = crank figures. Anyone else?

[jrsAudiA6]

Here is a link that talks about powertrain losses. Suffice it to say that any attempt we make at trying to correlate our wheel HP/TQ numbers to the flywheel is nothing more than a pure guess.

http://www.modified.com/tech/modp-10...s/viewall.html

[Brooklyn]

Thanks guys. Great article jrs.

[NvThs1]

I don't have many numbers to back up the gains on the tune, but it is very apparent my car is not stock. I just have the 93 tune and have not done the pulley. According to the APR peeps I talked to this past summer at a race, they claim I will notice just the same bump in power if I go stage II. I have had my tune pretty much since it was released and have not had a single problem with it. The car feels like it has an endless supply of power. I tracked the car a couple times and it performed very well considering I was running a sedan. 2 thumbs up here.

[AudiA6A5]

I don't have many numbers to back up the gains on the tune, but it is very apparent my car is not stock. I just have the 93 tune and have not done the pulley. According to the APR peeps I talked to this past summer at a race, they claim I will notice just the same bump in power if I go stage II. I have had my tune pretty much since it was released and have not had a single problem with it. The car feels like it has an endless supply of power. I tracked the car a couple times and it performed very well considering I was running a sedan. 2 thumbs up here.

I visited my local APR dealer yesterday.....~2k+tax...and they can do it in a half a day....so tempted just never tuned any of my Audi's before...

[cramazing]

Im debating if i should go from stock to stage 1 or straight to stage 2??

[kiku]

Stage 1 is a great start IMO because it's software only. Gets you a taste to see if it's enough power.

[AudiA6A5]

same here cramazing.......kiku do you think jumping right to stage 2 is a bad idea?

Local APR dealer said two guys went stage 1 on their S4's prior to Christmas and by New Years both made appts for the pulley....

[cramazing]

Stage 1 is a great start IMO because it's software only. Gets you a taste to see if it's enough power.

i was thinking of that just so i can feel the difference from stock to stage 1 and then from Stage 1 to 2..
my local APR dealer is only 25 miles so I can drop by pretty much anytime

[Brooklyn]

TD1 is TD1, so when I eventually pull the trigger I'm going straight to S2.

[kiku]

TD1 is TD1, so when I eventually pull the trigger I'm going straight to S2.

Very true, the difference is that stage 1 you can fairly easily revert back to original code and go into dealer for expensive warranty work.

If you have a pulley, not so sure of your options to not get tagged.

[cramazing]

correct me if i am wrong but the power train warranty is 4 years 50k miles right?

[jrsAudiA6]

Correct

[Brooklyn]

Good point. My understanding is that the aftermarket pulleys look almost identical to the stock pulley, but I imagine if they don't or if the dealership does a more thorough inspection, that would certainly result in a flag.

Very true, the difference is that stage 1 you can fairly easily revert back to original code and go into dealer for expensive warranty work.

If you have a pulley, not so sure of your options to not get tagged.

[kiku]

Best thing is to go to a dealership service advisor who can have an honest conversation about it. Simply ask - will the work to be performed flag a td1? Before they hook anything up....

[Wusty]

To the naked eye, and especially installed, there is no way a tech can tell the pulley is smaller. They look identical. If any one has a concern of a tech looking under the hood and thinking "that pulley looks smaller" it's NEVER gonna happen. Only if you had them both out, side by side. From the feedback I'm hearing on the people who have done stage 1 upgrades on the C7 A6's can feel a difference. On my S4, I couldn't really feel much of a difference from stock to stage 1 but stage 2, I felt a definite difference. Now I'm curious if stage 1 tunes on the A6 really wake the car up a lot more than the S4, the S4 is already tuned a bit more aggressively from the factory.

[NvThs1]

I visited my local APR dealer yesterday.....~2k+tax...and they can do it in a half a day....so tempted just never tuned any of my Audi's before...

$2k +/- is not bad if you are going right to stage II. I would have but I had two issues. 1) It was my first time modiding an engine. 2) the pulley was brand new and I think my dealer had one that they could not sell just yet. It was that new. So I skipped it for now. Still debating as I don't know how many more times i truely want to track my car. I am more interested in buying a track car if I am going to continue with that hobby.

I say go all the way though. Price is not bad, the power should be incredible, and just one trip to the dealer.

[AudiA6A5]

$2k +/- is not bad if you are going right to stage II. I would have but I had two issues. 1) It was my first time modiding an engine. 2) the pulley was brand new and I think my dealer had one that they could not sell just yet. It was that new. So I skipped it for now. Still debating as I don't know how many more times i truely want to track my car. I am more interested in buying a track car if I am going to continue with that hobby.

I say go all the way though. Price is not bad, the power should be incredible, and just one trip to the dealer.

Thanks NvThs1. I agree, pricing looks good. Dealer actually said could go stg1, then stg 2 when ready at the same overall total price. Even though the dealer is 15 mins away, one visit sounds better than two lol. IMO stock is fairly quick, can't imagine stg 2. My biggest concern is the ol' TD1, but I'm at 41k miles. A lot of good advice on here that is leading me to go for it........just have to take the plunge!

[king12sky]

Stage 2 right from the get go. you will notice the difference more than Stage 1 to Stage 2. Best $2200 spent! Period.

[hodrosS42001]

I just made a post and somehow missed this one.. there is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY.. that 8 speed + quattro is anywhere near 25% in drive train loss... in most applications with that trans they are seeing 15% loss and sometimes a little less. A stage 2 A6 should put down near 380whp.

The earlier A6's with the 6hp19 suffered from horrible drivetrain losses.. cus that transmission frankly sucks.

[jrsAudiA6]

I just made a post and somehow missed this one.. there is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY.. that 8 speed + quattro is anywhere near 25% in drive train loss... in most applications with that trans they are seeing 15% loss and sometimes a little less. A stage 2 A6 should put down near 380whp.

The earlier A6's with the 6hp19 suffered from horrible drivetrain losses.. cus that transmission frankly sucks.

And you know this how?

[30v6tfsi]

are dealer able to detect APR stage 1 tune now? Does the package include flashing the ECU back to stock before warranty service?

[hodrosS42001]

And you know this how?

I have a B5 S4 tiptronic with the 5hp19FLA. I have dyno'd it multiple times and that transmission has nearly identical friction material as a 6hp19. I also have a close friend who rebuilds ZF transmissions and specializes in older ZF's. The new 8 speed ZF was purposefully designed to be universal and be the most efficient auto trans (basically ever) the drivetrain loss when comparing the 8 speed v the 6 speed A6's should be somewhat significant. When looking at other applications of the 8 speed ZF.. drivetrain losses with Quattro seem to be less than 15%.. whereas the older ZF'z tend to be more than 20% closer to 25% if they have some wear in their clutchpacks. When comparing a 6 speed A6 and an 8 speed A6 with the exact same mods.. the 8 speed should without a doubt put more power to the wheels. I just wanted to see if there is any data of this.. I saw the numbers you listed no way should they be that low.. unless you are shifting early or its 100F outside. The numbers you listed are actually even lower than more 6 speed A6's.. there is something wrong.

[Josec70]

[QUOTE= My biggest concern is the ol' TD1, but I'm at 41k miles.[/QUOTE]

I'm also considering the APR Stage 1 and 2. Can you elaborate on the TD1. I assume it's an error code but just wanted to confirm.

[jrsAudiA6]

I have a B5 S4 tiptronic with the 5hp19FLA. I have dyno'd it multiple times and that transmission has nearly identical friction material as a 6hp19. I also have a close friend who rebuilds ZF transmissions and specializes in older ZF's. The new 8 speed ZF was purposefully designed to be universal and be the most efficient auto trans (basically ever) the drivetrain loss when comparing the 8 speed v the 6 speed A6's should be somewhat significant. When looking at other applications of the 8 speed ZF.. drivetrain losses with Quattro seem to be less than 15%.. whereas the older ZF'z tend to be more than 20% closer to 25% if they have some wear in their clutchpacks. When comparing a 6 speed A6 and an 8 speed A6 with the exact same mods.. the 8 speed should without a doubt put more power to the wheels. I just wanted to see if there is any data of this.. I saw the numbers you listed no way should they be that low.. unless you are shifting early or its 100F outside. The numbers you listed are actually even lower than more 6 speed A6's.. there is something wrong.

Your basis is like most others out there, that is based on anecdotal observations. Let's see if I can further your knowledge on this subject. Please read the article at this link http://www.modified.com/tech/modp-10...in-power-loss/.

[Austin@GIAC]

The numbers I provided are from the Mustang 500 dyno used by GMG Motorsports. My original stock numbers are 244 awhp and 272 awtq. Now the stock numbers reported by GIAC for A7 test vehicle are 281 awhp and 296 awtq. After the stage 1 tune my numbers as measured by GMG are 316 awhp and 312 awtq for gains of 72 hp and 40 tq. My numbers are about 10 - 12% lower than GIAC's numbers and APR numbers probably due to the differences in the dyno's. What I concerned myself with are differential numbers. When looking at the plots the max HP gain is about 95hp and 53 tq from stage 1. These gain are near redline. The tune HP increases all the way to redline and the torque does not fall off as much near redline. The stage 2 tune max gains from my dyno plots are about 22 HP and 20 TQ. When you convert to crank HP/TQ numbers I use a powertrain loss of 25%. According to GMG that is very close to the actual loss based on their measurements. So my crank numbers would be 448 HP and 425 TQ. Hope this better explains my numbers. I really do not concern myself with trying to compare absolute numbers with someone else's numbers unless you are able to use the same dyno.

Have you dyno tested or run the car on race mode yet? It's quite surprising. Very nice explanation regarding comparing different cars on different dynos. No matter the dyno, you should see similar deltas in wheel horsepower. Peak wheel torque differences will depend on the dyno type and whether it's load bearing or not (inertia & hub dynos tend to have a different torque curve shape than a load bearing dyno).

[jrsAudiA6]

Have you dyno tested or run the car on race mode yet? It's quite surprising. Very nice explanation regarding comparing different cars on different dynos. No matter the dyno, you should see similar deltas in wheel horsepower. Peak wheel torque differences will depend on the dyno type and whether it's load bearing or not (inertia & hub dynos tend to have a different torque curve shape than a load bearing dyno).

Yes, I have dyno'd both the stage 1 and stage 2 tunes using GMG's dyno separated by about 18 months. I used 100 octane gas once at Spring Mountain Motorsports Ranch last year. As far as if I could tell a difference from 91 octane I would say I could tell some difference but others that were in my group said they could tell quit a lot of difference during my runs down the straight aways of the course because I would pull away noticeably faster. I have not had a chance to run with 100 octane since getting stage 2 but hopefully in the near future. I'll be out on the big track at Willow Springs in Feb for some more track fun. With stage 1 I was getting to low 130's on the front straight expect that to approach 140 with the stage 2 tune.