Compressor Side Turbo Leak - GT28R

[218army]

Hey Guys-

I am looking for some feedback on a diagnosis that I received today from my tuner about an oil leak around the turbo. (Pictured below)



Here is a little background on my set-up. I have had the AWE GT kit & FMIC running for about 1 yr 8 months and 17,000 miles on my Avant. I have had the BSH Block off plate PCV solution going since Stage 2 @ about 25,000 miles around 2010, no problems. My oil consumption has been about 1 qt every 2,000 miles since I have owned the car, Got it with 10K now has 62K. Recently it had increased to 1 qt in 1,000 miles. I had also been noticing some smoke on wide open pulls now and again, but no smoke at start up, idle, or low boost. This lead me to believe the VC was bad, especially since I saw a little oil around the gasket and some of the Torx screws.

I was poking around in the motor and noticed a fine mist of oil residue on the silicon TIP and hose connected to the rear PCV passage (The GT kit removes the Rear PCV completely and its basically just a silicone hose going right into the Pre-turbo intake.) I bought another stock VC and gasket and replaced it, thinking problem solved. Nope, drove to work that day and and stretched her legs little bit on the freeway, got to work and checked my vc job for leaks. No VC leaks, but still a slight oily mist on the TIP. So, I probe deeper with a bright light and notice some oil on the Turbo housing. Never thought to check there before since the kit is still young and I wasn't having boost issues.

Now I am stressing out, so i take it back to TAG motorsports where I had the kit installed to check it out. Seems way to early in the kits life for the turbo seals to go bad. They looked at the car and came back with the below.

"Brett,

This is what my technician's response is to the oil buildup.... He is basically saying that the block off that you have in there, is causing excess pressure into the crank case preventing the oil flowing to/from the turbo to not flow properly causing excess oil in the turbo.

The recommended solution would be a catch can system/PCV fix which would then help bring the crank case pressure down, letting the oil to flow properly in/out of the turbo without causing too much drama.

Let me know your thoughts.




Begin forwarded message:


Here is a good explanation of possible causes for the issue.

If the oil return line of the turbocharger is clogged
or constricted by a kink, the oil can no longer flow out of the turbocharger.
A possible cause for clogged oil return lines is the coking of the return line,
which might be due to missing heat shields, a poorly routed return line,
heat soak, inadequate oil quality, or the use of liquid sealants. As the
turbocharger is still supplied with oil from the engine circuit, the oil then
escapes to the turbine or compressor side.

If the engine is supplied with too much oil, the oil can no longer flow
back out of the oil return line into the oil pan. The crankshaft also splashes up the oil. This results in the oil foaming, which
forms an additional barrier for the returning oil from the turbocharger
If the pressure in the crankcase is too high—either because of too high
blow-by or due to blocked crankcase ventilation, this pressure will also be transferred to the oil return
line of the turbocharger. The oil drainage from the turbocharger is thus
hindered, and the oil escapes from the turbine or compressor side.

Do you guys think the BSH Block plate could cause issues with the oil return line? The Block plate has a chamber carved out that links the rear PCV passage with the crankcase so its not really blocking that passage off. I feel like it would do the same thing as a catch can except with a catch can set up a hose runs from VC to Can and then back to VC before exiting into the intake. I don't know if that would lower the Crankcase pressure. I am trying to rule out a problem with the turbo, is it ruined?. I am happy to put in a catch can set up, but I am worried that it's not going to solve the problem.

I love to know if anyone with the APR or AWE kits have faced this issue, and what PCV solutions you are running.

Thanks for you expertise.

[mec]

pcv issues become more heavily accentuated with symptoms when you up the boost on an engine. The best thing you can do for PCV is to cap off the rear PCV system (exhaust side), then take the hose from the Valve cover, and from the oil filter bracket, connect them using a "t" then the third port on the "t" goes to a catch can, the second port on a catchcan goes to the Turbo inlet pipe. THen you will never have pressure buildup, because the turbo inlet pipe is always under vacuum. In boost the compressor sucks in air, and off boost, the pistons create vacuum, all air is drawn through the turbo inlet pipe so it fixes the PCV shenanigans.

[218army]

Thanks, I had read about t'ing the tube to the oil separator and venting it with a filter. Hadn't seen it set up with a tube going back to the TIP. My TIP has ports for the rear Pcv passage and the n80, so I guess if have to block the silicone and the valve cover port.

I just don't see how if I'm only pushing 19lbs of boost the pressure would be so great it would force oil thru the turbo seals before blowing the VC gasket.

[218army]

Going to throw a Rev P stock PCV valve in and see if the turbo is still leaking oil. Trying to rule out a faulty turbo, we'll see

[218army]

*update*

Welp, the turbo seals are blown. The turbo is out of its 12 mo warranty, so AWE won't cover it. Apparently running the BSH Stage 1 PCV fix will blow your turbo seals due to excess crankcase pressure. I really wish this information was called out somewhere in the description of a $6,000 dollar turbo kit, or on BSH's website. Don't ask me how the block-off plate won't blow out a K03 running stage 2+ software, but blows the seals on a GT28R.... Super bummed on both companies now... Especially AWE since this turbo is only a year and a half old.

I hope this can be a lesson to anyone that is wanting to step up the performance of a 2.0T to this level. Pay close attention to crankcase pressure. DO NOT RUN A BLOCK OFF PLATE! If you want to maintain the stock PCV system, you must use a old Rev L PCV valve since the the new Rev P will not work with out the check valve the is in the rear PCV breather tube.

Once I come up with the $$ to rebuild the turbo, I want to get a catch can setup, but I want to run all options by AWE for approval so I don't blow the seals out again.

I hope this information can save some people some headaches.

[mec]

Garrett turo seals don't really blow...at least not that new. Garrett's use labyrinth style seals http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labyrinth_seal and so you can get them to leak pretty easily, but if you fix the issue that is making them leak they are generally reusable.

Meaning.

1. You have oil spray out of the turbo
2. You must have some kind of overpressurization of the oil passages in the turbo.
3. Fix the overpressure
4. Seals are still good.

I had a very similar scenario. I had oil in my turbine and compressor housing, got advice from the shop I bought it from, had to ship it to them, they shipped to distributor, distributor returned to garrett. Garrett held it for like 3 months, then sent it back saying nothing was wrong, put it on, still leaking oil, took it to a shop, they couldn't figure it out, took it to a garrett distributor and installer for examination, and they couldn't figure it out.

In the end I bought a ton of 5/8's coolant hose, and tried tons of different PCV setups, ultimately, a catch can did help to remove quite a bit of the recirculating oil, but yeah often times its stupid little things, either your turbo is clocked too much, the oil feed shouldnt be more than 15* from perfectly vertical, you have a kink, the turbo drain isn't draining properly( there is no pressure for the drain to funnel out, it is all based off gravity, past the ball bearings the oil pressure is 0, so you need the oil drain to not have kinks, bend, etc, it needs to be straight down to the oil pan.), possibly too much crankcase pressure forcing oil up through the drain.

Try doing this. Order a catch can. I use one that looks like this http://www.amazon.com/ADD-W1-Univers...+oil+catch+can

Then buy a 5/8ths coolant "t" from autozone or similar, and 10-15 ft of coolant hose. And order a silicon hose tap from here http://www.siliconeintakes.com/produ...2cbc5b3fd7305d

Then you need like 8 hose clamps, those worm gear will work, or the catch can might come with some, can't remember. Either way they are like $1 each, they just hold the hose to the cathc cahn.

Final thing you need is a some AN adapters. you need a -10 AN male to NPT, and a pushlock 90* -10AN connector.

So now pull off your turbo inlet pipe, drill out a hole and install the silicon port system. Install the -10AN to NPT in that, and then the pushlock -10 onto that, push some coolant hose onto the -10 AN pushlock, and run that to the catch can outlet. This will be your vacuum, what will suck crankcase vapor out.

On the other end. attach some coolant hose to the valve cover where the PCV hose used to go, and then route it to a "t", on the other leg of the "t", connect hose and route it to the oil filter PCV hose. Now take the third leg of the "t" and run that to the catch can inlet. Now all of your catch can vapors will be sucked into the catch can, so you will need to empty it, from there the excess air will be returned to the Turbo inlet pipe, which is always under vacuum. Under boost the compressor creates suction in the TIP, and under part throttle or idling, the pistons generate vacuum that is pulled all the way back to the turbo inlet pipe, ensuring you always have suction.

[218army]

Thanks for the information on the seals. I had thought that, but the customer service person at AWE said that once oil made its way out, the seals were done. I am hopeful now, the if I can solve the pressurization issue which I think we might have done, the turbo will be fine.

So out of the box, AWE forces you to use and old rev L PCV valve, which everyone knows is prone to failure. The new REV P valves have a check valve in the rear breather pipe. This latest revision won't work with the AWE kit b/c there is no rear breather pipe, only a silicon port to the TIP. Now with a little thought and innovation, the guys at TAG motor-sports were able to get the rear check valve in-line with the TIP port and the valve cover. This is allowing us to use the newest rev PCV with the GT kit.

So far I only have put about 50 miles on the fix, and it seems to be working and the crank pressure most be lower than with the block-off plate b/c the turbo is no longer leaking. This will be a temporary solution until I figure out which Catch can set up to go with. I may need to get a new TIP that has no ports if I plan to block off the turbo side of the valve cover like you post suggests. I am just happy the turbo isn't leaking any more.

We'll see how it holds up.

[218army]

Hey guys-

So I am still battling this issue. I ditched the BSH Block-off plate and went back to a stock PCV set up. The drivability improved, and seepage around the compressor lessened, but I am still getting oil "Misting" from somewhere. It's a very weird symptom that only pops up once the engine has cooled. For example, I'll finish a long drive and pop the hood to asses the leak and there won't be any oil residue. The next morning, I'll come out and pop the hood, and the whole TIP will be glazed with a film of oil. I figure this has to be coming from the turbo seal as there is no evidence that the valve cover is leaking. Don't know where else it could be coming from.

I am getting differing opinions on the seals of my garret GT28RS. ATP/AWE say that once oil has made its way out the seals are compromised and will always seep even if the over-perssurization issue in the crank case has been fixed. Folks on this forum say that the seals could still be good as long as the over-pressurization issue is fixed. Can you guys recommend a method for measuring crank case pressure? I would love to be able to test this before I send the turbo back to ATP to rebuild the center section. I would hate to have that done only to blow the new seals. Would a simple catch can set up lessen crank case pressure more than the stock PCV set up?

Hoping someone else from the BT community may have dealt with this before.

Thanks