Is there a cell phone antenna in the car?

[Redd]

Since the MMI navi system would require a cell phone antenna someplace in the car, I was wondering if the 2014 stock (Premium Plus, without nav, no radio upgrades) had the cell phone antenna and cable already installed as part of the basic wiring harness, like some of the BMWs do.

I use an active cell phone signal booster, and figured if there's an antenna and cable already in there someplace, I'd rather use that than install a hardwired one.

--Redd

[snowbird]

why would MMI need a cell phone antenna? Nav uses GPS, not cell signals.

[MP4.2+6.0]

why would MMI need a cell phone antenna? Nav uses GPS, not cell signals.

You're forgetting about the Google Earth overlay as one example via Audi Connect, which would be through the cellular data side, not SAT.

For the OP, I expect the antenna is in the same shark fin roof mount as the other ones. AFAIK they have all been clustered there for many years. But where (besides tied into Audi Connect) there might be any connection to tie to it, I don't know. My D3 A8 and others of the era had a place in the console where you could use a docking module that in turn had an antenna feed of some sort, but I'm not aware of any similar functionality with the Q5.

[josedebardi]

There doesn't appear to be an option on US spec cars but there are 3 variants of Bluetooth from Audi...
http://www.audi.co.uk/new-cars/q5/q5...le-phones.html

If you have the full MMI Nav then they appear to bundle 'high' prep as you get the Audi connect features (whereas here in the UK we have to spec high as separate option).

What I can't work out, is if you don't have the Nav, do you get standard or 'low' prep...
If it is standard then there is no aerial in the car, if it is 'low' then there is and you can get a cradle built into the armrest to allow you phone to make use of it.

As all I can find on the Audi USA website is this http://microsites.audiusa.com/my09/p...patibility.pdf it's not clear (and it's 4 years old...), but there is a note at the end saying you can get a cradle for non-Bluetooth phones which suggests maybe 'low' prep is the default on US spec'd cars...
There is also this which is up to date, it is generic to Audi rather than USA/Q5 but gives you some more details on the feature... http://www.audi.com/com/brand/en/mod...eparation.html

Armed with this knowledge of 3 Bluetooth variants I would suggest you approach the dealer with the direct question of 'Is it low or standard prep on a vehicle with MMI Nav?'

Hope that helps a bit!




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[spijun]

There doesn't appear to be an option on US spec cars but there are 3 variants of Bluetooth from Audi...

On U.S. market all models Q5 come standard with BLUETOOTH ® wireless technology preparation for mobile phone (with or without navigation) and Prestige package has Bluetooth ® streaming audio
Do not exist three options of Bluetooth

[spijun]

Since the MMI navi system would require a cell phone antenna someplace in the car, I was wondering if the 2014 stock (Premium Plus, without nav, no radio upgrades) had the cell phone antenna and cable already installed as part of the basic wiring harness, like some of the BMWs do.

I use an active cell phone signal booster, and figured if there's an antenna and cable already in there someplace, I'd rather use that than install a hardwired one.

--Redd

Depends on what level of equipment you have in your car.

If you have a Phone adapter for mobile phone preparation with Bluetooth this is the front center armrest, and then you have a GSM antenna
I have a model of Generation III and I used it only a few times
http://www.audi.com/etc/medialib/ngw...ne_adapter.pdf

http://www.audi.com/com/brand/en/too...n.browser.html


This is the location of GSM / GPS antennas

[josedebardi]

On U.S. market all models Q5 come standard with BLUETOOTH ® wireless technology preparation for mobile phone (with or without navigation) and Prestige package has Bluetooth ® streaming audio
Do not exist three options of Bluetooth

This is my point... Audi has 3 options, but does not offer them as options in the U.S. market...
The Prestige = high prep which is offered elsewhere in the world
The Premium/Premium Plus = standard OR low prep that is offered elsewhere - it is not clear what 'BLUETOOTH ® wireless technology preparation for mobile phone' means - does this include the cradle or not?

As you said, if the cradle is included, then this will include the external antenna - and so will be equivalent to low prep.
If the cradle is not included no antenna will be present - and so will be equivalent to standard prep.

The question is, does the cradle come as standard as I cannot see any option for it...

[Redd]

Thank you, Spijun.

My mistake to say MMI when it is the Connect that uses the cellular data connection for the Nav system.

In the US, there would be no cellular "dock" in the cars anymore. Dedicated car phones, bag phones, were almost always analog phones and analog support was dropped by the major carriers--totally--something like five years ago. So now, whether it is GSM or CDMA (and the form of LTE that is used in the US is actually a hybrid of both, it is not the same 4G or LTE that the rest of the world uses) the phones used "as" car phones are always conventional "pocket" phones with a Bluetooth link. Convenient but not the best way to do things technologically.

In any case...is there a URL I can access to see that placement diagram in full resolution? It look like there is a provision to install a horizontal bar (dipole?) GSM antenna not just one in the shark fin? I hate to make a hole in the roof, but anything short enough to fit in the fin wouldn't be a terribly good antenna anyhow. Good enough in the city, not good in the woods.

[josedebardi]

Ummmm, you seem a little mis-informed... (please note I sell cellular switches to the likes of T-Mobile/AT&T so know mobile technology very well...)

The cradle has an adaptor, which will allow you to use you latest generation iPhone/Android etc in the car. Idea being it charges, and no longer uses it's internal antenna while control is achieved over bluetooth handsfree profile... It is not designed that you have a handset to actually pick up in the car which seems to be what you a referring to with analog car phones of old...
GSM/CDMS is of course important - the Q5 only has GSM... The latest generation A3 has LTE (whether or not is is US compatible I'm not sure).

The bluetooth connection is also potentially smarter than you give it credit for...
The 'high' prep I mention, and that is part of the Prestige line on the U.S. cars has a full GSM module built in - you can use this in 2 ways, either put a SIM in the dash (and so it really is a car phone) OR if your phone supports rSAP (remote SIM Access Profile) over bluetooth your phone will go to sleep and pass remote control of it's SIM to the car, so it can then use its external antenna and use GPRS/UMTS data etc (for Google Earth/Audi Connect), your text messages will also come to the car in this mode (which is actually a bit annoying as they are then not on your phone when you leave the car).

You're approach of adding extra hardware seems a bit mad if I am honest, when the cradle with adaptor for your phone or rSAP (if you went Prestige) are perfectly good solutions...

[MP4.2+6.0]

Ummmm, you seem a little mis-informed... (please note I sell cellular switches to the likes of T-Mobile/AT&T so know mobile technology very well...)

The cradle has an adaptor, which will allow you to use you latest generation iPhone/Android etc in the car. Idea being it charges, and no longer uses it's internal antenna while control is achieved over bluetooth handsfree profile... It is not designed that you have a handset to actually pick up in the car which seems to be what you a referring to with analog car phones of old...
GSM/CDMS is of course important - the Q5 only has GSM... The latest generation A3 has LTE (whether or not is is US compatible I'm not sure).

The bluetooth connection is also potentially smarter than you give it credit for...
The 'high' prep I mention, and that is part of the Prestige line on the U.S. cars has a full GSM module built in - you can use this in 2 ways, either put a SIM in the dash (and so it really is a car phone) OR if your phone supports rSAP (remote SIM Access Profile) over bluetooth your phone will go to sleep and pass remote control of it's SIM to the car, so it can then use its external antenna and use GPRS/UMTS data etc (for Google Earth/Audi Connect), your text messages will also come to the car in this mode (which is actually a bit annoying as they are then not on your phone when you leave the car).

You're approach of adding extra hardware seems a bit mad if I am honest, when the cradle with adaptor for your phone or rSAP (if you went Prestige) are perfectly good solutions...

You are probably generally on the right track here, but note there is no cradle concept in the US Q5. I have a high end/Prestige 2013 with Nav/Audi Connect, etc. and still no such thing. The center console is simply basically a big hole that looks like it has some molding/shaping for (quasi obsolete) CD cases. I know the cradle set up well, since I have that in my 2006 A8 W12 down underneath the dual armrests. In fact, I just bought a new iPhone 5 cradle accessory--the part that pushes down onto the base and contacts built into the D3 A8 center console. I had a 4/4S one before. In both cases I had to source them from an Audi dealer in Europe (either Ireland or England); they were last seen in the U.S. back with like Motorola V3 phones. There is no such console cradle base on a US Q5, so the only connection option is bluetooth and the only power option a cigarette lighter charger.

[josedebardi]

You are probably generally on the right track here, but note there is no cradle concept in the US Q5. I have a high end/Prestige 2013 with Nav/Audi Connect, etc. and still no such thing. The center console is simply basically a big hole that looks like it has some molding/shaping for (quasi obsolete) CD cases. I know the cradle set up well, since I have that in my 2006 A8 W12 down underneath the dual armrests. In fact, I just bought a new iPhone 5 cradle accessory--the part that pushes down onto the base and contacts built into the D3 A8 center console. I had a 4/4S one before. In both cases I had to source them from an Audi dealer in Europe (either Ireland or England); they were last seen in the U.S. back with like Motorola V3 phones. There is no such console cradle base on a US Q5, so the only connection option is bluetooth and the only power option a cigarette lighter charger.

The cradle won't exist on a prestige (aka high prep) as the idea is you use rSAP instead. Their thinking is you won't need to charge the phone as it isn't doing much in that mode so the battery won't get used up.


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[Redd]

Jose-
Not misinformed but simply uninformed.

"The cradle...no longer uses it's internal antenna while control is achieved over bluetooth handsfree profile"
What you are describing requires a picocell (aka femtocell aka active repeater) in the car then. Phone manufacturers stopped putting external antenna links in cell phones some time ago, so the internal antenna is actually ALWAYS used on modern cell phones. A very low power repeater, about $300 worth of active electronics, can be used to then connect the phone to an external antenna. That's the technology I use (from Wilson). On my older Palm Treo, and the Motorola StarTac before that, I could simply plug in the external antenna and skip all the repeater electronics, but the new phones no longer allow for that direct connection.
AUDI-USA makes no mention of any "cradle" or booster connection for cell phones. I know BMW also used to offer a cradle, but they also required one of a dozen specific hardware adapters, making the cradle rubbish unless you happened to own 9or went out to buy) the matching phones. I suspect the issue of matching phones and too many variations on the US market, which is way more fractious than the EU market, is the reason for the difference here.

The picture that was linked showed what looked to me like a dedicated handset. Those have disappeared from the US market in general--but they're not obsolete yet. As to LTE compatibility, no, the US standard for LTE is not compatible with the EU standard. And our "plain 4G" isn't the same 4G that is in the EU either. In fact there were going to be massive fraud lawsuits here because the "4G" speeds were not 4G at all, until someone in the ITU changed their specs to make the fraud legal. Our cellular industry is a disgrace compared to the rest of the world.

"The bluetooth connection is also potentially smarter than you give it credit for..."
How do you mean? The BT is mainly just audio here, the extended specs for everything else are still quite a patchwork jumble.

"The 'high' prep I mention, and that is part of the Prestige line on the U.S. cars has a full GSM module built in"
I don't recall any "Prestige" line being available on the Q5. It is Premium, or Premium Plus, in the US. Here a SIM "in the dash" would be part of the navigation package, which uses a cellular connection. I have no idea if the car can take over the phone's own connection as part of that. Given the price of the package and the fact that I normally don't want to play with computers while I'm driving, I didn't explore the details.


"You're approach of adding extra hardware seems a bit mad if I am honest, when the cradle with adaptor for your phone or rSAP (if you went Prestige) are perfectly good solutions... "
Again, there's no cradle option that was offered to me, and no "Prestige" line mentioned here. Maybe that's bad sales & PR, maybe that's just EU market.
But in any case, if you think a real antenna is madness, you may be familiar with the cellular industry but I'm a licensed radio operator. I can tell you for a fact that the laws of physics are fairly simple and fairly immutable, and a whip antenna will outperform any short amplified fin, for any radio service, every time. Does it look as pretty? No, but performance is incredibly better. A plain 1/4 wave or 5/8 wave antenna, or a "stacked" collinear antenna, will show 3db to 7db of increased signal strength compared to anything short and stubby. The general public wants "tiny and pretty" but the laws of physics don't give a damn about that. And since the cellular radios (i.e. the towers too) all are still basically FM radios, they are still subject to the "FM capture effect". That is, if a tower has the capacity for 100 calls, it will take the 100 strongest connections. If you have a solid connection to a tower which is operating at full capacity, and I come along with a connection that is 3db stronger, guess what happens? The tower drops your call and takes mine! Happens every time unless the carrier has done some exotic programming which none will publicly claim to have done yet.

That's why I don't care if it is pretty. Sure, I'd like pretty, and I'd like built-in, but if it isn't already in there, I won't waste my time and money installing a technically inferior antenna. (And of course it isn't just cell phones, the same laws of physics apply to all radio antennas. Bigger isn't always better, but in practical terms, it generally will be, until the size becomes inconvenient.

[josedebardi]

I also happen to be a CB radio enthusiast so know how the radio bit works...

I suggest you take a look at the Audi USA website, there is a prestige line, it's one above the premium plus. Also a couple of posts above here another member has one!!
It has Bluetooth ability which is WAY more than just an audio connection... Technically calls would be possible with the phone off as it plays no part in the call as the cars GSM module is at work (you may actually get a text from your operator congratulating you on your new phone when it pairs as it looks like the SIM has been put in a new device from their point of view).
I think you are right though that this type of connection is available only in conjunction with the Nav, however technically they are not linked, it is just that the Nav can then make use of the cellular data connection which comes as a byproduct of an rSAP Bluetooth connection.

I completely agree that the US has a nightmare of cell phone systems, and am also aware that they have been marketing 3G+ as 4G and I'm sure this puts car manufacturers off of providing hardware to try and work with it all...

My point, and it still has not been confirmed what the situation is as we need someone with a premium/premium plus to comment, is that Audi has 3 types of Bluetooth installation on the Q5...
The prestige model line system it is clear it has its own GSM module included, and for GSM operators at least it works very well if you have a phone that supports rSAP (and you don't mind a stubby antenna... and paying through the nose for it as you have to have the Nav as well as it is bundled that way)
The other option offered in the US on the premium/premium plus it is not clear if this so the very basic handsfree 'standard' option, which as you say, is just an audio interface, OR if it has a cradle as well, which as you say is a picocell repeater which uses both the internal and external antenna (but also charges the phone so it's no big deal that the phone is doing work...), meanwhile the Bluetooth connection is used for the audio. The cradle actually has no bearing on how the phone interfaces with the car audio system, it's just a booster as you say.

If you really are a radio nut and want the best possible reception then obviously none of these will work for you, but I thought it important to explain clearly the minefield of options and different technologies on offer. I'm beginning to wonder why you started the thread when it seems clear you were intend on adding a 'proper' antenna anyway!?
I wish you all the best on your quest for phone integration!


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[Redd]

Thanks, Jose, I'll check further into that this week.

A decent CB antenna would be an 8' stick, although many years ago I wound a 4-5' helical, using a surplus magnetron magnet as a base, that could outperform anything available commercially. An eight foot magmount would have been a bit much, but a thin stiff 4-5' managed very nicely. These days, much better magnets are so easily available.<G>

I thought that if Audi did what Mercedes did on the M-class and placed (multiple) cellular antennas in the harness that ALL of the Q5s used (the M-class all had 2 or 3 diversity antennas as I recall) then it would be so simple and clean to just plug in someplace. (MB left the antenna connection coiled up under the arm rest, accessible simply by lifting it, but buyers could order the phone cradle OR the CD multiplayer, as both were installed in the same one place.) I'd rather plug in and see how it works, than drop the headliner and pillar trim in order to snake in an NMO mount behind the sunroof. Then if I still hit dead spots, I'd install the NMO. Sounds like that's the way I'll have to do it though, since even a "factory" upgrade at this point would mean running a new cable up there.

Not a radio nut, but yes, I have provided serious volunteer emergency communications, and I'm involved in disaster response. Radios that perform 100% reliably, to the limits of the technology, can be a very good thing. Sneaking some of them into a passenger car without butchering it, not so easy.<G> And while cellular isn't always the right or best way to go, it certainly is a great tool to have in the toolbox.

[spijun]

Thank you, Spijun.

My mistake to say MMI when it is the Connect that uses the cellular data connection for the Nav system.

In the US, there would be no cellular "dock" in the cars anymore. Dedicated car phones, bag phones, were almost always analog phones and analog support was dropped by the major carriers--totally--something like five years ago. So now, whether it is GSM or CDMA (and the form of LTE that is used in the US is actually a hybrid of both, it is not the same 4G or LTE that the rest of the world uses) the phones used "as" car phones are always conventional "pocket" phones with a Bluetooth link. Convenient but not the best way to do things technologically.

In any case...is there a URL I can access to see that placement diagram in full resolution? It look like there is a provision to install a horizontal bar (dipole?) GSM antenna not just one in the shark fin? I hate to make a hole in the roof, but anything short enough to fit in the fin wouldn't be a terribly good antenna anyhow. Good enough in the city, not good in the woods.

There is also a amplifier signal for mobile phone.
I think that this option does not exist for the U.S. market (I have not read anywhere that there)

[Redd]

Jose-
Thanks for making me look! Apparently I blocked the "Prestige" offering out of my mind, since it is diesel-engine-only. A loaded car with all sorts of extra features, but to me the "diesel" isn't just an option, it is a different product. I know, I have to get used to diesel as a mere option on the market again.<G> Nice price tag they put on that model.

But even there, the list of included toys on the AudiUSA web site for the Prestige doesn't really indicate anything special about the phones, except the mention of the voice interface. Which as I understand it, will allow voice dialing of BT phones from the car, as opposed to just being able to voice dial from the car's own stored numbers on my lesser model.

[josedebardi]

The AUDIUSA site is very poor when it comes to explaining features when compared to its European counterparts...
Essentially as Audi Connect is included it will have the ability to do rSAP... But if you go this route you need to be using a GSM operator and a compatible phone. I would say you would want to talk to a dealer to get confirmation from Audi directly on this.

TDI technology is pretty impressive these days, performance wise it is on par if not beyond gas. It still looses out on short journeys though. I would only recommend TDI if you are doing 12k plus miles per annum and most of your trips are over 20 miles...
You do pay a premium up front as well, although it is skewed by AUDIUSA as they also are offering more gadgets so the price is a lot higher...
There are still parts of the world you can't get diesel so easily at the pumps as well.

Anyhoo, be interested to see what you end up with and what mods you make!


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[Redd]

We're pretty much past hurricane and blackout season, so I can take my time about making permanent holes in the sheet metal. And finding a source for some manuals. (Presumably for sale at the parts counter, even to an unauthorized uncertified owner? <G>)

[Redd]

Then again...What's involved in taking the stock "shark's fin" off the roof?

I'm thinking that maybe the cleanest and simplest solution is to take that off and replace it (with a junkyard or parts purchase) with a modified mount in the same location. No extra holes needed, and I just need to know the trick to popping that off. ??

[spijun]

Then again...What's involved in taking the stock "shark's fin" off the roof?

I'm thinking that maybe the cleanest and simplest solution is to take that off and replace it (with a junkyard or parts purchase) with a modified mount in the same location. No extra holes needed, and I just need to know the trick to popping that off. ??

Maybe it's easier this way or similar: glass-mount antenna
http://www.mobilemark.com/shop/category.asp?catid=670

Procedure for removing roof antenna

[Redd]

That's great, thanks again!

Looks like some gentle prying on the trim panel will reveal all and then the rest is mainly one nut. I'm guessing the three possible wiring connectors means one for the AM/FM, which should be an obvious coax cable, a second only if there's cellular, and the third might be power for amplified antennas. In any case...whatever is there will explain itself and that's half the battle. Snaking a new coax down and forward, a "simple" exercise after that.

But as my friend Homer Simpson said to me, "Gee, why would you need to make a hole in the roof when there's already a perfectly good one under there? D'OH!"

[keenez]

I'm gong to install an android unit into my 2016 q5 premium plus with no navigation system and no mmi. The android unit comes with a GPS antenna but I was hoping to connect it to one built into the car. Is one of the powered antennas for gps?

[Redd]

A GPS "antenna" is not just some piece of coat hangar like an old AM/FM radio antenna. It usually is a bit of a flat patch combined with active electronics attached to it, partly to boost the signal level and make it strong enough to carry down the specific cable it is made to be used with.

So randomly plugging in a GPS "antenna" that wasn't designed for the GPS, can result in poor performance, or major damage. I'd be really cautious about trying to plug in anything that wasn't sold as a matched system. Typically, the GPS is putting out power to the "antenna" and if yours wasn't designed for that long a run of that type of cable, it could burn out the GPS, or just keep losing position signals.

PITA, yes, but that's how magic works.

These days? Put the antenna under the dash, up near the windshield, and it should work perfectly well. The specs for the system should say if it is a 3rd generation (G3) chip, or fourth (G4) and even G3 was good enough to work when trapped between the sun visor and car roof. WAY better than the old G1 equipment.

[keenez]

Thanks for the information