Getting these codes when trying to start my car...

[xdewaynex]

Alright thanks. I searched online all of last night, trying to find the layout of the cams (which valves are open and closed) if it were to be cylinder 3 at tdc. I had no luck. My next option being, if I make it out of town today, to stop by the Audi dealership and see if they could help me out.

[xdewaynex]

Just got back in from doing the timing one more time. I lost my paint marker, so I found some craft paint laying around the house, to make marks on the cam gears and belt. I used a torque wrench on the tensioner pulley set at 33 ft/lbs (45NM in the tech article). I looked at the gap of the hydraulic tensioner and the tensioner pulley it presses up on, and I could stick an 8mm allen key between it. I walked away to let the paint dry before I remove the locks and rotate the crank. I came back about 10min later, and noticed the gap between the tensioner and pulley, was smaller. I couldnt fit the 8mm key back in place. So Im now thinking this is the result of a failing hydraulic tensioner, as I wouldnt think the gap should close like that.

[redneck truck]

Wait a minute - are you saying you're nt tensioning the belt with the 8mm gap? That could be your problem! Go back and read the instructions again. The point of that wrench is to set a tolerance in which the tensioner can operate. If the gap went away, I'd say the tensioner is doing what it was designed to do.

[KrautHauler]

I have nothing useful to add, but, I'm going to throw you a party when you finally get this thing running.

[redneck truck]

Seriously! He'll be a master technician by the end of it and, having made every mistake in the book, he won't be repeating them on other people's cars.

[xdewaynex]

No, Im using the the 8mm allen on the roller set at 33ft/lbs to tension the belt. Onnce its torqued, the gap between the casing of the hydraulic tensioner and the tensioner roller plate, is the same width as the 8mm allen bit. I can walk away for a few minutes, come back and that gap is smaller. I wouldnt think the hydraulic tensioner would bleed off like that, if it were good.

[Vinnie981]

so you did a timing belt service and didn't get the whole kit? rollers, tensioners, all that

[redneck truck]

Vinnie, save it.

Dewayne, post pictures of the tensioner, roller, etc as you're doing it. You put the allen wrench between the tensioner piston (compressed) and the roller it pushes on while you apply tension to the belt, and then you remove the wrench and release the tensioner. This ensures that, with the belt tensioned properly, the piston is extended 8mm out of the tensioner body before begins to tension the belt. My guess is that this puts the tensioner piston in a happy range where, if the belt got tighter or looser, the tensioner would have enough play in either direction to pick up the slack without binding.

[Vinnie981]

Vinnie, save it.

little hostility there?

[xdewaynex]

Not really showing much, but this is the gap between the tensioner and the roller, when torqued to 33 ft/lbs



This shows the same 8mm allen that is used to torque to the roller, fits snug in the gap between the tensioner and roller once its torqued



Within a few minutes, that gap closes to about 4.5mm. Im not positive this is a result of a failing tensioner.

A friend of mine stopped by that is more mechanically inclined when it comes to engine timing and sorts. Weve turned the crank several times, going through the firing order and things of the motor, and come to a bit of conclusion the driver side cams are off a few degrees. Still working on this.

[redneck truck]

The tensioner is supposed to compress very slowly, so this might be fine. Is it possible you overtensioned the belt?

Once you're pretty sure the timing and tension are correct, turn the engine over several times (10-15 times) and then reinstall the timing belt lock down tools. If they go in fairly easily, you're probably in good shape.

[xdewaynex]

Its probably been cranked over 30 times since my last post. My marks on the crank gear to the block, and the marks I made on both cam gears, line up after every other rotation. The cam locks also slide right into place. One thing I did notice if the cams were 180* out, the cam lock tools wouldnt actually slide in to place, almost as if the cams tapered different on the opposite sides.

My friend suggested to do a compression test as well, and have the tool to do so. I got the following numbers...

Cylinder 1 140, 2 140, 3 170, 4 150, 5 145, 6 145

Im kind of curious as to why cylinder 3 is the only one over 150.

[redneck truck]

Sounds solid to me!

[xdewaynex]

I thought so too, so I threw it all back together, hoping it would start. As usual, it didnt start. I got out the wrench and started hand turning the engine again, and all of my marks were lining back up. It was getting dark and I got pissed off, so I came inside. Ill give it another try tomorrow as long as the weather holds out.

[craze8]

Clear faults 3 times within 30 seconds, (Resets the ecu, do it all the time at work to clear up ecms that are saying things are happening that really aren't) set basic settings of the throttle valve (Channel 60). Attempt to start and tell us your codes once more. I'll look into them in the am and see if I can't help point you further, still sounds like something is array in a sensor or wiring.

[redneck truck]

Never heard that one. Going to try it on my A6 and my TT when I get home.

[craze8]

Works exceedingly well on 2.5s 1.8ts 2.0t and some VR cars. Its basically a reset and learn everthing all over again. Sometimes (expecially 2.5 and 2.0ts) Will develop a "misfire" code or cam faults. When you check everything, everything will be okay. This proceedure makes the ecu realize its own mistake and the fault is no longer set when the motor is clearly running correctly.

[redneck truck]

Dewayne, I bet if you posted the same thread in Audiworld's C5 section, 4Driver4 would be all over this. He is the guru on these engines, and he's normally willing to help people who are willing to help themselves.

[xdewaynex]

It was piss pouring rain here all day yesterday, so I didnt get a chance to work on the car. Ill give a shot at clearing the codes 3x like craze8 suggested. Would touching the battery cables together do the same?

Ill give Audiworld a shot.

[xdewaynex]

I posted my situation on Audiworld. Just came back in from checking on the car. Cleared the codes like suggested, but it didnt change anything. Car still not starting, and the 4 cam implausible signals popping up.

[Vinnie981]

dude how about i send you my 4 working sensors from my 3.0 just so you can throw them in and see if it changes anything. If it does then send mine back and put your new ones in

[craze8]

What are the exact codes you are getting, please include the 3 digits after the p code listing. As for touching the battery cables together, yes and no. If you put the leads together for 5-10 minutes... You are discharging all capacitors in the cars ecus, technically it should do the same, but doesn't always clear all the learned values in the system.

[xdewaynex]

I went ahead and replaced the 4 cam sensors for the hell of it, since they were just sitting there. It didnt change the situation at all. Cleared the codes, tried starting it a couple times, and still nothing. Scanned with vcds, and still getting the same codes.

VCDS-Lite Version: Release 1.2
Sunday, 24 November 2013, 18:36:52:47197
Control Module Part Number: 8E0 909 559 E
Component and/or Version: 3.0L V6/5V G 0003
Software Coding: 0016752
Work Shop Code: WSC 02325
VCID: 370110820655
4 Faults Found:
16730 - Camshaft Position Sensor (G163): Implausible Signal
P0346 - 004 - No Signal/Communication
16725 - Camshaft Position Sensor (G40): Implausible Signal
P0341 - 004 - No Signal/Communication
16775 - Camshaft Position Sensor (G301): Implausible Signal
P0391 - 004 - No Signal/Communication
16750 - Camshaft Position Sensor B Bank 1 (G300): Implausible Signal
P0366 - 004 - No Signal/Communication

[craze8]

Might not be till later tomorrow before I can respond with some diagnostic info for you. Depends on how my network at work decides to play. If it plays nice and allows access to the forum I will respond with what I have and know.

[xdewaynex]

No problem, and thanks. A member on Audiworld gave me the schematics to trace the cam wires back to the ecu pins. If weather permits, Im going to check things out tomorrow.

[Vinnie981]

good luck man....im starting to feel really bad for you

[craze8]

Okay, as I figured the cam sensors all share a power and a ground. The faults are for an incorrect signal. You've already eliminated sensors by swaping all four out. Heres some tests to do for you with Key on Engine off at the connectors of the sensors.

On pin 1 to a ground source you should see 5V or close to it. Pin 2 to ground and you should see your battery voltage. Pin 3 to Battery positive and you should see somewhere around 10v. If you dont see any of the correct signals, you've found your problem. I would say it would have to be either a ground issue or a power issue in the circuit and not a signal back to the ecm. Pin 3 is the ground side of the circuit. Pin 1 is the 5v reference. Pin 2 is the signal wire back to the ecm. I am willing to bet you have an issue with your 5v reference.

I know you said you've already got the pin out, but here it is again, just incase.

pin 1 on all four sensors go to pin 98 at the ecm
pin 3 all go to pin 108 at the ecm
(May have written that backwards, or wrote the wrong pin down >.< Busy day at work... either way all four go to one or the other pin wise on the ecm)

g40 bank 1 pin 2 goes to term 87 at ecm
g163 bank 2 pin 2 goes to term 86 at ecm
g300 bank 1 pin 2 goes to term 81 at ecm
g301 bank 2 pin 2 goes to term 54 at ecm

The above is the listing for the signal wires back to the ecm. Again, from what your describing, my thought process leads me to think you have an issue with the reference voltage and the ground side of the circuit. Let me know if you need anything else.

[Vinnie981]

craze8......nice work!

[xdewaynex]

I really appreciate it craze8. I done a similar test on the connector ends with the key turned over, but my reads were way off. Ill give it a go again. I didnt get much time today to look at the schematics of the sensors, but looking at them and your repay, youre right on the money. Is the pin layout for the ecu, the same as the 2.7/2.8? Its all I could find online, because I dont know how the pins are numbered.

[craze8]

Yes and no. the 2.7 uses a different harness and different setup for the cam sensors though the sensors would be 3 pin sensors and would still use the reference/signal/ground setup. Pin numbers at the ecu would most likely be different as ecus are different. Let me know if you need further info on the wiring, IE wire color for wires. I could make a schematic for you for the 3.0 but it would be very basic and in paint, but it would have all the info you would need.

Actually, I'll make the schematic tomorrow, if I have a free moment during lunch and can get it to upload from my phone I'll have it up for you. Otherwise might not be till around 7pm est or abit later to have it up

[craze8]

As for pins at the ecm, that gets tricky, at the sensors thats easy, roll the rubber boot back from the connector and you'll see 1 2 3. At the ecm, on the connector itself or in the ecm you will see a small (And I do mean small number) and it goes from left to right. They always label big connections and the first connection and last connection on the harness.

[craze8]

There is one more sensor that could be causing your issue. I'll post about it and a diagram for your wiring for the sensors tonight when I am off of work.

[xdewaynex]

Sounds good. Can't thank you enough.

[craze8]

There is the diagram as I said with the additional sensor. the additional sensor is the brake booster pressure sensor if your car has one. Real simple test. Unplug it and see if everthing clears up. Otherwise use the above for refrencing pins 1 and 3 Let me know what you come up with

[xdewaynex]

Where exactly would that switch be located, or what does it look like?

[craze8]

It will either be directly connected to the brake booster itself or in line in the hose that supplies vacuum to the booster. It looks like a map sensor, similar to the one found in the throttle valve boot on 2.7T cars.

[xdewaynex]

Alright, thanks again. Once mother nature decides to let up, Ill get out there and look around.

[craze8]

If your getting the same weather we are right now here in VA, might be awhile LOL. Good luck and keep us posted

[craze8]

Any luck today?

[xdewaynex]

I havent stepped foot outside. Ive come down with the flu, on top of this craptastic weather going on.