Sequential turbo setup - Need Help Finding Part

**ericpaulyoung** · 08-10-2013 08:20 AM

Ok, I am gathering parts for a sequential turbo setup on my 2.0, and need help finding a crucial part that seem to only exist in Poland and the Czech republic. Any help locating one of these mysterious beasts is very much appreciated. Here is a TDI discussion on using one in a sequential setup on a diesel.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=366332

And here is the part number = 059 145 901B

Here is a picture of it

And here are the schematic and part lookup. It is part 18. (thanks Martin)

**jsandor91** · 08-10-2013 08:22 AM

Sequential turbos! Do you ever stop coming up with stuff Eric !?
Your the pioneer of the b7 section :thumbup:

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 4

**ericpaulyoung** · 08-10-2013 08:31 AM

I am definitely not the first to use this technology, but maybe the first on our platform. This is the combination I am thinking about right now. They should compliment each other quite well, and the plan is to keep my solid 2500-4500 rpm range of the GTX2863 and have the GT3582 roll in from 4000-redline. The spool characteristics is almost perfect with a 500 rpm overlap, and it should get me in the 450-500 awhp range up top. That's the plan at least.

**mec** · 08-10-2013 08:49 AM

jealous!

**ericpaulyoung** · 08-10-2013 08:55 AM

Well if this works I can post any drawings and part numbers etc. so the next guy can build the same setup if they want. It would be a cool kit too! I would love to see ATP watch this thread and then make a kit for everyone. Screw those Supras! They are so last year :)

- EPY

**Jhad** · 08-10-2013 08:59 AM

Just got off the phone with my buddy in parts at a VW/Audi dealer.. he said he cannot order that part for import to the NA market or some BS.

But, I might be able to work something out lol.

**ericpaulyoung** · 08-10-2013 09:15 AM

Originally Posted by Jhad

Just got off the phone with my buddy in parts at a VW/Audi dealer.. he said he cannot order that part for import to the NA market or some BS.

But, I might be able to work something out lol.

That would be great. Everyplace I have asked said "nope, those don't ship to the US". ??

**viperdsa** · 08-10-2013 09:28 AM

You could see if one of the non-US members would be willing to work with you and try to get it that way.

**AudiA4_20T** · 08-10-2013 09:30 AM

You need to ask some guys like Alex@Europrice who get Euro shipments in

**F16HTON** · 08-10-2013 09:41 AM

May not flow enough air to feed the larger turbo. Have you considered a butterfly valve such as a throttle body?

**ericpaulyoung** · 08-10-2013 09:43 AM

Originally Posted by AudiA4_20T

You need to ask some guys like Alex@Europrice who get Euro shipments in

Thank you. I will give him a PM.

-EPY

**ericpaulyoung** · 08-10-2013 09:50 AM

Originally Posted by 500HPS5

May not flow enough air to feed the larger turbo. Have you considered a butterfly valve such as a throttle body?

A guy asked the same question over in the TDI forum with this response "audi valve is more than big enough.. has only 11 mbar pressure drop at at 1000 kg/h (at 3 bar abs)". That would equate to 11 mbar dP at 277 g/s. Assuming the loss is not strongly Reynolds number dependent, the losses would scale proportional to v^2. Making a very approximate assumption of similar densities at the different flows (bad assumption, but just for rough guessing) then my goal of 400 g/s would have a loss of (400/277)^2*11mbar = 22.94 mbar losses. That is 0.33 psi of loss for the poppet valve. Definitely a big contributor, but acceptable. I think the intercoolers have about a 1 psi drop, so it is like added and additional 1/3 of an intercooler into the system.

**ericpaulyoung** · 08-10-2013 09:56 AM

So this is the general overlay of a series sequential turbo setup with a larger low pressure turbo and smaller high pressure turbo chained together.

Which came from this wonderful presentation by Ford.

http://www.gtisoft.com/upload/FordDi...gines.2011.pdf

**seal66** · 08-10-2013 10:51 AM

Dude you are crazy! I can't wait to see this project take off now

**ericpaulyoung** · 08-10-2013 10:57 AM

Originally Posted by viperdsa

You could see if one of the non-US members would be willing to work with you and try to get it that way.

Good call. If Alex can't get it, I will start asking some European members.
EPY

**fly300kts** · 08-10-2013 01:21 PM

Eric,

Let me know if you want me to inquire, I have Family in France

Phil

**ericpaulyoung** · 08-10-2013 01:48 PM

Definitely ask them! If they can send it over, just let me know how much it will cost.

EDIT Unless it is super expensive. Base price should be about 110 euros.

**fly300kts** · 08-10-2013 01:49 PM

Originally Posted by ericpaulyoung

Definitely ask them! If they can send it over, just let me know how much it will cost.

Will call tomorrow

Phil

**glissoar** · 08-10-2013 02:17 PM

I feel like I'm a fairly knowledgeable member of our platform but every time I read the threads on epy's crazy new ideas all I can read is "hey I'm working on this things that's never been done before" then i try to keep reading it, even say it out loud and al my brain hears is derka derka blacka berk bang bung rabble rabble rabble

And then zoommmmmmmm way over my head and I feel like I just joined the forum yesterday

You my friend are a true innovator of our platform! You are setting the new standards of what the b7 2.0t is really capable of!

**aluthman** · 08-10-2013 03:38 PM

I would love to see that setup get built. If anyone is going to pull it off, it will be EPY.

**PNW Avant** · 08-10-2013 03:50 PM

I thought this was called a "compound turbo" setup?

**LoKisSpYdR** · 08-10-2013 04:39 PM

No, it's typically referred to as a twin turbo, i.e. MkIV Toyota Supra Twin Turbo. Same setup. The new BMW 3series diesels use this setup as well.

**ericpaulyoung** · 08-10-2013 04:49 PM

If you look through the linked PDF above you will see the differences.

Compound setups always rely on the high pressure turbo to compound the flow from the low pressure.

Traditional twins just dedicate a single turbo to a set of cylinders, and the other turbo to the rest.

Sequential is the most complex in that it relies on only the high pressure tirbo down low in the rpm's, and only the low pressure turbo at the high rpm's. Then there is an overlap region where you switch from one to the other and hopefully deliver a smooth transition. This requires the most control parts.

**aluthman** · 08-10-2013 05:07 PM

What purpose exactly does that part serve? Why not do something like this?

**LoKisSpYdR** · 08-10-2013 05:12 PM

Yeah don't get me wrong, Toyota or BMW calling what they call a twin turbo makes no sense, sequential turbos on an inline 6 setup wouldn't be a literal twin turbo by definition. This is why, I think, Audi decided to call it's twin turbo setup on the 2.7TT and 4.2TT, "Bi-Turbo", although, by definition, they were two identical turbo performing the same task at the same time - or twins.

**LoKisSpYdR** · 08-10-2013 05:15 PM

Originally Posted by aluthman

What purpose exactly does that part serve? Why not do something like this?

Holy shit that thing has to get HOT!

Also, I'm pretty sure that's a compound turbo setup not sequential.

**ericpaulyoung** · 08-10-2013 06:31 PM

That is a straight compound setup, and likely for a Diesel, as straight compounds make serious boost (like 40-200 psi!). I am looking to keep running around 30 psi, I just want 100 g/s more flow at 30 psi. That is beautiful though ;)

**aluthman** · 08-10-2013 07:48 PM

Yeah, it says Cummins on the valve cover. It would be tits if you could get a setup like that to make 30ish psi though.

**ericpaulyoung** · 08-10-2013 09:29 PM

You can! It's called a series sequential ;)

**canadianA4B7** · 08-11-2013 05:24 AM

Damn you! I followed your lead on building the S3 k04 and i think ive done an ok job, was looking into some bigger turbos out of curiosity but figured id hold off. No you go and start talking about doing something like this! Looks like id bring this set up to canada as yer usually the first to complete these amazing set ups. Ill see if i can contact some germans and ask if they cay get that part.

**JTC85** · 08-11-2013 06:33 AM

not trying to thread jack, just curious if anyone has attempted twincharging this motor?

**derrek** · 08-11-2013 08:08 AM

Why not use a k04or k03 for the smaller turbo? To much of a gap in compressor maps maybe not enough flow to spool the bigger turbo? What are your going to do for fuel? Ive thought about doing something like this a few times but I always get stuck on what to do for fueling and if I want to go threw the headache of finding someone to tune it. I hope you get this setup running nice it would be an awesome seconded big turbo route!

**aluthman** · 08-11-2013 08:14 AM

His GTX2863 already spools plenty fast, and he wants more flow on the top end. This means he needs something bigger than the GTX2863 for the big turbo.

**derrek** · 08-11-2013 08:27 AM

Originally Posted by aluthman

His GTX2863 already spools plenty fast, and he wants more flow on the top end. This means he needs something bigger than the GTX2863 for the big turbo.

I understand that he's going to run a sequential turbo set up. But if hes going this far why not use a smaller turbo then the 28 for the least amount of lag possible?

**aluthman** · 08-11-2013 08:29 AM

I'm guessing that with the K03/K04 turbos having a one piece manifold/turbine housing, the fabrication would be a lot more difficult.

**derrek** · 08-11-2013 08:36 AM

Originally Posted by aluthman

I'm guessing that with the K03/K04 turbos having a one piece manifold/turbine housing, the fabrication would be a lot more difficult.

True, being a fabricator I always overlook these things.

**ericpaulyoung** · 08-11-2013 09:49 AM

Originally Posted by JTC85

not trying to thread jack, just curious if anyone has attempted twincharging this motor?

Not that I am aware of. It is fairly common in the big diesel truck community, and is even used in some OEM applications as mentioned above. Each applies it a little differently for different goals, but most people would just buy a different engine (e.g., 2.7tt) and swap it as the cost could be around 5k for the additional turbo, hardware, and fabrication costs. However, I started thinking about how nice it would be to keep factory ECU control over the car, and also about the fact that we have a little extra space under our hood with the little four cylinder, and this seems to fit :)
EPY

**ericpaulyoung** · 08-11-2013 10:02 AM

Originally Posted by derrek

I understand that he's going to run a sequential turbo set up. But if hes going this far why not use a smaller turbo then the 28 for the least amount of lag possible?

Actually this would be best, and I was thinking a GT2560R would be perfect as the thing is basically spooling at idle :) Also it is a smaller package and makes the fitment better too. However, I already own a GTX2863 and it is fit really nice already, so I am thinking to just build on that. There is a chance I go with the little guy, and if I did it from the start I would definitely evaluate it further. However, the 2863 is a pretty fast spool and the way that it can run up into the GT35 lower range should give me a very smooth transition between the two without having to use active change over. So the plan is to rely on the large overlap in performance to allow me to just run the TDI biturbo bypass valve as a passive change over as the ECU opens up the wastegate the high pressure turbo to control charge, then the low pressure will be running alone and the high pressure turbo will just be free wheeling.

- EPY