Why didn't the new S6/S7 get the new ZF 8-speed auto?

[acey]

I'm looking into getting a new S6, and I am a bit surprised that is still carries the 7-speed DSG / S-tronic gearbox. Don't get me wrong, for long it was the best double clutch box out there (and I've had it in my TT, S4 and A7), but the RS6 is getting the 8-speed ZF auto, which has quickly become the industry standard it seems.

Does anyone know the reasoning behind keeping the "old" 7-speed S-tronic in the S6?

[Pip]

Excerpt from GTSpirit RS7 review;

"The 8-speed tiptronic moves well in auto mode but take over yourself with the flappy pedals and it shows some flaws. Upshifts and downshifts take longer than the 7-speed dual clutch in the S7 and sometimes when you shift close to the red line you might end up shifting a gear further immediately."

I think the question we should be asking is ... why didn't the RS6/7 get the 7-Speed S-Tronic DSG ? hahahaha ...

Torque Limits I think ...

[superswiss]

Nothing old about the S-tronic. Performance wise a proper sequential manual gearbox like the S-tronic is the way to go. No slushbox is gonna hold a candle. The only reason the RS7 got the 8-speed tiptronic is because the current S-tronic tops out at 440 lb ft of torque.

[acey]

I've driven the new ZF (although not in Audi-trim) in BMW-mode it's fantastic. Chris Harris seems to be raving about it in his latest RS6 review. Indeed it seems to be the main reason why it's faster than the CLS 63 AMG.

Nothing wrong with the S-tronic (apart from clunky downshifts into first in auto mode).

How will the S-tronic cope with some tuning? It seems that the tuners are getting RS6-like figures with a "simple" ECU upgrade?

Too bad I can't have the flared wheel arches of the RS6 on the S6... can't have everything :)

[LINDW4LL]

More and more sports cars are going towards the dual clutch transmissions. Not sure why you would want the Tiptronic over DSG. The 8-speed tip is certainly nice, but it doesn't compete with S-Tronic in my opinion.

Also, as far as longevity- it seems that Audi highly underestimates the amount of torque that the DSG trannies can handle. I don't have specific numbers, but I believe 034 has run A3s and R32s at 2x their rated max torque level, long-term, with no durability issues. Most tunes actually increase the DSGs longevity by fully engaging the clutch packs before max torque is allowed to take over.

[troyguitar]

Chris Harris isn't exactly the smartest guy on the planet, he's an entertainer.

The DSG shifts up in 8ms, the ZF shifts up in 200ms. 50 times slower than DSG...

ZF advantage is it's smoother, gets better highway economy due to the extra overdrive gear, and holds more power - though people are tuning S6 and S7's to put out quite a bit of power and supposedly haven't run into any issues yet.

[acey]

Totally agree on the upshifts, but I really liked the downshifts of the ZF. My main worry was how it would hold up to another 100 horses!

Decision time is looming. But I can't really see any competition for the S6 at the moment (and I'm getting the Avant). The M550d is, well a diesel and even if the torque is impressive the overall experience is not nearly as satisfying.

I'm coming over from a S212 E63 AMG. I'm sure gonna miss the happy tail and the epic soundtrack and instat throttle response. Not going to miss the slightly outdated cabin and poor downshifts (or the fuel economy...).

[sciblades]

Nothing old about the S-tronic. Performance wise a proper sequential manual gearbox like the S-tronic is the way to go. No slushbox is gonna hold a candle. The only reason the RS7 got the 8-speed tiptronic is because the current S-tronic tops out at 440 lb ft of torque.

I dyno with much more tq then 440...as does any other tuned s6

[superswiss]

I dyno with much more tq then 440...as does any other tuned s6

That's at your own risk. The S-tronic is rated at 440 lb ft of torque. You can verify with Audi. The S8, which makes 481 lb ft doesn't have the S-tronic for the same reason. Sometimes Audi opts for the tip in the US market, because they feel the average American buyer is not in tune with the S-tronic. The A6/7 is a good example, which in Europe comes with the S-tronic if you choose the 3.0 TFSI where as in the US we get the tip, but the major driver behind S-tronic vs tip these days is the rated torque.

[Pip]

That's at your own risk. The S-tronic is rated at 440 lb ft of torque. You can verify with Audi. The S8, which makes 481 lb ft doesn't have the S-tronic for the same reason. Sometimes Audi opts for the tip in the US market, because they feel the average American buyer is not in tune with the S-tronic. The A6/7 is a good example, which in Europe comes with the S-tronic if you choose the 3.0 TFSI where as in the US we get the tip, but the major driver behind S-tronic vs tip these days is the rated torque.

What's interesting is that APR dyno-ed the stock S6/7 ...

Stock Figures from Audi: 420hp / 406 tq (ft-lbs)
Stock Dyno by APR: 480hp / 464 tq (ft-lbs)

I think AUDI under-rates the stock HP & TQ of the S6/7 and I suspect the 440 tq limit on the S-Tronic is also on the safe side.

[superswiss]

What's interesting is that APR dyno-ed the stock S6/7 ...

Stock Figures from Audi: 420hp / 406 tq (ft-lbs)
Stock Dyno by APR: 480hp / 464 tq (ft-lbs)

I think AUDI under-rates the stock HP & TQ of the S6/7 and I suspect the 440 tq limit on the S-Tronic is also on the safe side.

Yes, I'm sure they leave themselves enough headroom to be on the safe side and to minimize having to repair transmissions under warranty.

[S7_UAE]

I am 100% sure the DSG Holds over 600 lb of torque easily.. It just MUST BE .... cuz if not.. thats just sad seeing a 2011 Auto mustang supercharged can run +650 rwtq without any issues and the audi can't handle it.

I am sure Audi went to the 8 speed ZF on the RS because of the Ratio gameplay in the lower speeds.

[4rings-rs4]

I've started doing some research into the C7 S7 as possibly my next car and tuning is definitely in its future - especially since there are Audi dealerships that are APR partners.

Have there been any documented cases where the tranny failed under the additional torque??

[sciblades]

I am 100% sure the DSG Holds over 600 lb of torque easily.. It just MUST BE .... cuz if not.. thats just sad seeing a 2011 Auto mustang supercharged can run +650 rwtq without any issues and the audi can't handle it.

I am sure Audi went to the 8 speed ZF on the RS because of the Ratio gameplay in the lower speeds.

I have has a tune on my car since 5k miles and now have 22k on my car, I put down 570lb of wheel tq I launch my car at least twice a week from a light if not more and have no tranny issues. I'm honestly not concerned with our transmissions other then the tcm's built in electronic limiters the mechanical side of things are very strong.


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[4rings-rs4]

I have has a tune on my car since 5k miles and now have 22k on my car, I put down 570lb of wheel tq I launch my car at least twice a week from a light if not more and have no tranny issues. I'm honestly not concerned with our transmissions other then the tcm's built in electronic limiters the mechanical side of things are very strong.


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Which tune are you running??

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[sciblades]

Which tune are you running??

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unitronic.

[4rings-rs4]

Thanks...viewing the post s from my phone so sigs dont show. .. :/

I didnt notice uni had a 4.0T tune... had uni on my rs4 and dealers couldnt see it when they scanned ecu - assume thats still the case?

Curious what factors made you choose uni over others, say apr?

Appreciate the feedback.

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[sciblades]

Thanks...viewing the post s from my phone so sigs dont show. .. :/

I didnt notice uni had a 4.0T tune... had uni on my rs4 and dealers couldnt see it when they scanned ecu - assume thats still the case?

Curious what factors made you choose uni over others, say apr?

Appreciate the feedback.

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I have used Uni for all of my cars, so I trust the guys there and like to support a tuner that I trust, Apr is not lacking in funds and does not need my business.

If you call them up they have the tune, they were flashing s6's at waterfest.

what version ecu do you have?

[4rings-rs4]

I have used Uni for all of my cars, so I trust the guys there and like to support a tuner that I trust, Apr is not lacking in funds and does not need my business.

If you call them up they have the tune, they were flashing s6's at waterfest.

what version ecu do you have?

I agree.. apr seems to be doing well.. lol

Off the top I dont remember exact version, would have to look at my vag codes... they are bosch (want to say ver 8)... its a b7 rs4, n/a v8



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[Ccraig]

How much did you pay for unitronic tune? I might want to add to my 13' s6

[Ccraig]

Do you believe APR dyno numbers for 13 s6 ?

480hp/464lbtq?

Not that 420/406 is bad but it would be nice to know there is more than I originally thought. And I like the s tropic better than t tronic

[sciblades]

Do you believe APR dyno numbers for 13 s6 ?

480hp/464lbtq?

Not that 420/406 is bad but it would be nice to know there is more than I originally thought. And I like the s tropic better than t tronic

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...=1#post8978930

that is a post where I posted my 93 oct and apr's 93 oct whp dyno's, you will have to call and ask for a price

[Ccraig]

Based on what you have found. Hp is less than 420

[sciblades]

Based on what you have found. Hp is less than 420

No, if anything our cars are underrated stock.

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[CreoSTi]

Based on what you have found. Hp is less than 420

The dyno charts show hp at the wheels (lower due to drivetrain loss). Manufacturers advertise hp at the crank (higher).

[VeryBadman]

Not sure why you want ZF instead of S-Tronic. If not for torque handling limitation I'm sure that Audi would put the S-Tronic in RS6 as well. It could also be that is not really a limitation but marketing strategy since R8 can be equipped with S-Tronic. However, RS6 with S-Tronic could be even faster than the flagship R8.


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[b6onboost]

You're right, but its also amounts to splitting hairs. The ZF auto is still shifting quicker than a traditional manual. A 2/10s of a second shift is quick.

Having driven a DSG and 3.0T ZF (A6) I think the ZFs smoothness and better mpg far makes up for it being a fraction of a second slower, especially in a daily driven street car.

The DSG shifts up in 8ms, the ZF shifts up in 200ms. 50 times slower than DSG...

ZF advantage is it's smoother, gets better highway economy due to the extra overdrive gear, and holds more power - though people are tuning S6 and S7's to put out quite a bit of power and supposedly haven't run into any issues yet.