Oll Filter Comparison: Fram (USA) vs. Mann

[RustyBucket]

So, when doing my oil change this week, I initially looked at the Fram filter because I read that they were often made in Germany and identical to the Mann Filters. The one I picked up at Canadian tire this past week wasn't. It was made in the USA and looked different than the Mann filter. I bought a Mann filter from the local VW dealer for only $2 more than the Fram.

Since I had both in my posession, I decided to do a side-by side comparison...
(My gf called me nutty for doing this)

As you can see, the Fram is a more complex design with rubber and plastic end caps. The construction of the filter was also of good quality.

There does not appear to be much difference in the thickness of the filter media between the two filters.

Both filters came with the internal housing gasket

The Mann filter came with a new crush washer for the drain plug

The Fram filter came with a second gasket for the outside of the filter housing

Given what I've seen from these side by side, is the poor reputation that Fram has deserved?
Might the plastic inner ring cause sealing issues and result in oil getting past the filter?

Granted, this comparison does also not go into the effectiveness of the filter media between the two nor does it answer any real-world questions of longevity.

Thoughts?

[Jay-Bee]

Fram is totally fine for these cartridge filters... i ran them my last 2 oil changes. And I actually like how they had plastic end caps.

However mine did not look like that one, no red inner ring and were made in China, just like many other OE parts.

[Mister W]

I think by eye it look good. I never tried anything else than Mann or Meyle for my VW and Audi. I think the oil filter quality is important, but i only know what i've read. I hope some people with knowledge can prove why the FRAM is worst that other. I would like to see some numbers as well.
PS: dont worry about you GF, you're not alone in this.

Do you have the Canadian tire part number, i'll check at mine in QC to see if they have it.

[Hugh@EuropaParts]

odd... we probably have about 2,000 2.0t Mann filters in the warehouse and I don't understand why it comes with a crush washer for the drain plug as OEM drain plugs/crush washers are all one piece and cannot be separated. The picture below shows a magnetic drain plug which comes with 10 washers that are removable.

[CharlesP2009]

I've used the Fram PS-7010 and after 5,000 miles the thing collapsed down into the shape of a corset or hour glass. My OEM filters never do that after 5,000 miles so I'll be sticking with the Mann Filter. They're only about a dollar more on Amazon so I think the Mann is worth it.

[RustyBucket]

Do you have the Canadian tire part number, i'll check at mine in QC to see if they have it.

The Fram filter I got was CH-9911... $12.99

I've used the Fram PS-7010 and after 5,000 miles the thing collapsed down into the shape of a corset or hour glass. My OEM filters never do that after 5,000 miles so I'll be sticking with the Mann Filter. They're only about a dollar more on Amazon so I think the Mann is worth it.

Aha... real-world experience!
This is exactly the kind of thing I was wondering. You can only do so much with a visual side-by side comparison.
It's a different part number though... How long ago was that?

[Jhad]

I have used the fram for my last 3 oil changes (easier to pick up at a local store), and i have not experienced any deformation. I do my oil changes between 3-5k miles.

[clemsongt]

In the past, the FRAM filter PN CH-9911 was manufactured in Germany and looked exactly like the MANN filter. They recently (past 6-8 months) changed manufacturers and design. The PN is still the same but it looks like what you showed in your picture. I always ran FRAM filters (German version) with no collapsing or issues. I ran one of the new design and did not have any issues.

I have run 1 MANN branded filter and it did not do well. It collapsed like a straw when drinking a thick milkshake. I don't know if it was the filter or if it was due to the PCV system I am running as I changed both at the same time.

[typeslone]

odd... we probably have about 2,000 2.0t Mann filters in the warehouse and I don't understand why it comes with a crush washer for the drain plug as OEM drain plugs/crush washers are all one piece and cannot be separated.

The original one is meant to be cut off and replaced. I think the original one from the assembly line is a tad bit smaller so there is no chance of it falling off during the assembly process, and so a tech can't forget to install one. All the drain plugs I have in stock here all have the ring that can't be separated without cutting it off.

Some of the newer vag cars actually use a true crush style washer now instead the of the flat crush washer that the older cars used. Part N-013-815-7, it is round and has some sort off sealing goop in it that comes out when it gets crushed.

[Jay-Bee]

FWIW my OEM/dealer filter had the whole "sucked up" issue too, I bought one on ebay, it's no different and Fram is available at any Canadian Tire... and there is plenty of info on bobistheoilguy forums discussing the CH9911 filter.

[jimrobbington]

I haven't used the Fram, but just from the picture, it looks like a better product. It looks like an equal amount of parties have had issue with either one. Go with the Fram, since it's cheaper and easier to find locally! Just because not OEM, doesn't mean crap. I know there are those out there that feel that way. But it's selective. For instance, I bet you those same people don't use OEM oil. Lol.

And don't worry. My wife thinks I'm weird every time I'm taking pictures of something random I'm doing for a DIY I post or something. But it's fun. If you can learn something, and teach others something, worth the weird looks.

[RustyBucket]

I have run 1 MANN branded filter and it did not do well. It collapsed like a straw when drinking a thick milkshake. I don't know if it was the filter or if it was due to the PCV system I am running as I changed both at the same time.

I've used the Fram PS-7010 and after 5,000 miles the thing collapsed down into the shape of a corset or hour glass. My OEM filters never do that after 5,000 miles so I'll be sticking with the Mann Filter. They're only about a dollar more on Amazon so I think the Mann is worth it.

I haven't used the Fram, but just from the picture, it looks like a better product. It looks like an equal amount of parties have had issue with either one. Go with the Fram, since it's cheaper and easier to find locally! Just because not OEM, doesn't mean crap. I know there are those out there that feel that way. But it's selective. For instance, I bet you those same people don't use OEM oil. Lol.

And don't worry. My wife thinks I'm weird every time I'm taking pictures of something random I'm doing for a DIY I post or something. But it's fun. If you can learn something, and teach others something, worth the weird looks.

From hearing about the "sucked in" issue happening on both OEM and Fram filters, I wonder if it might be something to do with the installation of the filter?

I noticed when putting mine in that the housing with the filter didn't slide in really easily - there was some resistance. If the filter is subject to mechanical pressure from the ends while there is oil flowing through it, maybe it causes the centre to be pulled inward?

And as far as the non-OEM oil goes, I put Shell Rotella T6 in for this change, which is not VW certified, but everyone who's used it gives it good reviews.

[CharlesP2009]

Yeah, Audizine LOVES Rotella T6 though no one really has a qualitative reason. Just butt dynos and "it feels better" or "seems quieter". I'll give it a shot sometime but thus far I've had the lowest oil consumption with Mag 1. Motul went quickly. Pennzoil lasted longer than Motul but not as long as Mag 1. Sometime I'll probably spring for oil analysis reports on various oils as well.

[LoKisSpYdR]

Yeah, Audizine LOVES Rotella T6 though no one really has a qualitative reason. Just butt dynos and "it feels better" or "seems quieter". I'll give it a shot sometime but thus far I've had the lowest oil consumption with Mag 1. Motul went quickly. Pennzoil lasted longer than Motul but not as long as Mag 1. Sometime I'll probably spring for oil analysis reports on various oils as well.

I agree that my car is a bit quieter and feels like it has more low end power, but I also saw a drop in consumption. Before I started using T6, I used Castrol Synthetic as per AoA's recommendation, and was burning 1+qts every 5k. Now I am consuming 1/2 qt or so, and that's with my PCV venting to my downpipe.

[Jay-Bee]

Yeah, Audizine LOVES Rotella T6 though no one really has a qualitative reason. Just butt dynos and "it feels better" or "seems quieter".

Head over to the bobistheoilguy forums, plenty more info than, "It feelz gud"

There's tons of used oil analysis reports from users who sent it to Blackstone labs after various oil changes... it has an excellent ZDDP package and does not sheer down at high heats and stress. And the best part... it's 29-35 bucks at various stores like Walmart and NAPA and the likes.

[AudiA4_20T]

Yeah, Audizine LOVES Rotella T6 though no one really has a qualitative reason. Just butt dynos and "it feels better" or "seems quieter". I'll give it a shot sometime but thus far I've had the lowest oil consumption with Mag 1. Motul went quickly. Pennzoil lasted longer than Motul but not as long as Mag 1. Sometime I'll probably spring for oil analysis reports on various oils as well.

There have been objective reviews from multiple places that prove its great stuff... It's also cheap

[Brillo]

Can you provide a reference or link for these "objective reviews" please? So far I haven't seen any credible scientific evidence that shows much difference between any of the premium synthetic oil brands. As CharlesP2009 states its mostly anecdotal butt dyno commentary none of which is very persuasive.

[CorneliusRox]

Lots of race teams and race engine builders only use Fram. I've been using fram for years also and it has never given me an issue. My truck is close to 300000miles, at least 100000 of those were at well over double the HP rating from stock and it hasnt missed a beat and still has low blowby and no sludge.

[RustyBucket]

Can you provide a reference or link for these "objective reviews" please? So far I haven't seen any credible scientific evidence that shows much difference between any of the premium synthetic oil brands. As CharlesP2009 states its mostly anecdotal butt dyno commentary none of which is very persuasive.

Well, this iss no direct link, but does point you in the direction...

Head over to the bobistheoilguy forums, plenty more info than, "It feelz gud"

There's tons of used oil analysis reports from users who sent it to Blackstone labs after various oil changes... it has an excellent ZDDP package and does not sheer down at high heats and stress. And the best part... it's 29-35 bucks at various stores like Walmart and NAPA and the likes.

The big issue for our FSI engines is the cam follower: Rotella contains higher levels of zinc which helps reduce wear on high pressure metal-on metal situations. It's also a known issue for older cars that use flat-tappet cams. The zinc content is one of my big motivators to go with Rotella.

[CharlesP2009]

Well, this iss no direct link, but does point you in the direction...


The big issue for our FSI engines is the cam follower: Rotella contains higher levels of zinc which helps reduce wear on high pressure metal-on metal situations. It's also a known issue for older cars that use flat-tappet cams. The zinc content is one of my big motivators to go with Rotella.

Meanwhile the higher concentration of Zinc dialkyldithiophosphates might be killing your catalytic converters.

Oh wait, I forgot, most 'ziners like to cut out their cats and pollute the air.

[MedicCarter]

I just put in a fram we will see if my oil pressure issue is fixed. The filter I changed was thinner than when I put it in so we will see I had a bosh but I have always had fram in my other cars. I have my butt dyno ready and my fingers crossed besides I just changed to NGK7 plugs and want to see if those do anything from my 6's.

[Jay-Bee]

Can you provide a reference or link for these "objective reviews" please? So far I haven't seen any credible scientific evidence that shows much difference between any of the premium synthetic oil brands. As CharlesP2009 states its mostly anecdotal butt dyno commentary none of which is very persuasive.

Twice now i've said to go to the bobistheoilguy forums, plenty of info there, i'm not gonna search for an exact link, if you doubt it then that's your job to do the research lol.

[Brillo]

Jay-Bee: I've been all through BITOG forums. While there is some useful information there it is replete with opinion and anecdote. As one example, the opinions on Royal Purple vary all over the place - some swear by it and others will never use it. I run a tribology laboratory and understand lubrication theory quite well, so I look for bona fide scientific evidence for differences in performance between brands of oil, filters, etc. Very little exists that I am able to find - on BITOG or anywhere else. I stand to be corrected on this point, and therefore asked for references. Regardless, the point can be made that some premium brands contain more ZDDP. It could reasonably be expected that they might perform slightly better in extreme metal-to-metal conditions. One such condition could be the hpfp cam follower wear issue that we are all familiar with, but there is no scientific study that high ZDDP oils are decidedly better relative to cam follower wear. We also know that the balance of zinc and phosphorous is important so just pouring a ZDDP additive into your oil is perhaps unwise. More is not always better. It is known that the wrong concentration of Zn and P can adversely affect wear and degrade the performance of the catalytic converter. Due to the later reason our wonderful government has pushed for lower levels of Zn and P, and many oil companies have complied. They have rebalanced the wear additive package to compensate so it's no longer just a matter of the Zn and P concentration in any particular brand of oil. The only point I was trying to make is to watch out for anecdotal stories and butt dyno testimony and look for scientifically credible evidence.

[Luis_Heineken]

I've used the Fram PS-7010 and after 5,000 miles the thing collapsed down into the shape of a corset or hour glass. My OEM filters never do that after 5,000 miles so I'll be sticking with the Mann Filter. They're only about a dollar more on Amazon so I think the Mann is worth it.

That part number is from a K&N oil filter, not Fram

http://www.knfilters.com/search/prod...x?prod=PS-7010

[wding2000]

Use only Mann, Mahle, or Hengst OE filters, or genuine Audi if you want to spend money.

[Charles.waite]

I got a filter at the dealer two weeks ago and it was branded MANN along the top. Mann is OEM.

[wding2000]

Yeah, they just mark up the price. Get OE filters - the best quality at lower prices.

[waiapasi2006]

I think I have a k&n filter in there right now. I'll see what it looks like when I do my oil change.

[Sanjman]

Not everyone will have issues but quite the many people hade had issues with fram (also made for mobil 1 filters) do yourself a favor and avoid them at all costs . I might be annoying by posting something about them every time it comes up but I'm doing anyone who comes up on this thread a favor. I have no idea who manufactures the k&n ones but my only recommendation is to go with Mann. I buy them at bulk from GAP or ECS with oil pan crush washers bolts and oil.

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