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  1. #1
    Veteran Member Four Rings
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    Eurocode USS Stabilizer Bars and Solid Endlinks - my review

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    Yesterday, after a 1 month long wait, I received my box full of Eurocode USS goodies, specifically the front & rear stabilizer bars, and front & rear solid endlinks, and associated hardware. Of course the box arrived on a Monday and I will not have the opportunity to install anything and do a performance review until the coming weekend at the earliest, but in the meantime I figured I would at least review the product itself as it was delivered:

    The box that was waiting for me when I got home:


    This is how everything was wrapped inside the box. Very thorough/careful packaging. The endlinks (pictured in the white foam pouches) were actually inside a smaller white box filled with foam packing peanuts, not pictured here:


    All of the pieces unwrapped:


    First-class. I like seeing "Made in USA" printed on the major components:







    One downside was that there was a small chip in the red coating (powdercoating I believe) on one of the flanges of one of the bars, down to the bare metal. I will coat this with some paint after installing it to inhibit corrosion. Otherwise, these parts feel and appear to be extremely high-quality and so far I have no regrets with my purchase.

    The other downside is that I am going to have to buy a triple-square spline type bit for my ratchet wrench in order to remove the sway bar bushing brackets, but I suppose this is no fault of Eurocode since the OEM bolts have this type of socket head. I just mention it as a heads-up for anyone budgeting/planning to do this modification, so that you go out and get this tool ahead of time to save yourself any rework and aggravation. The Eurocode instruction manual says it is a 10mm socket, and you can get the appropriate triple-square spline type driver from Amazon among other places:
    http://www.amazon.com/Vim-Products-1...sxp_grid_i_1_0


    I am planning to install the rear bar and endlinks first and drive around to get my impressions of having just the rear upgraded, and then install the front bar and links later. My car is a non-sport diff model and I already have the Alu Kreuz brace installed, so I'm thinking the result of having just the rear bar and links upgraded will not be too extreme (while I imagine doing the same thing in a sport diff equipped car would result in too much oversteer). But ultimately I plan to end up with both bars and both sets of links installed, with the rear bar at the 'stiff' setting and the front bar to 'soft'.

    I will update this thread ASAP, hopefully this coming weekend, with initial impressions and any relevant commentary regarding the installation process.

    Update#1 (June 5th) - Rear sway bar and endlink installation and impressions
    Installation took me 4.5 hours. Yep, you read that correctly. Here's my story:

    * I backed the car onto my ramps to get the back end up in the air. Eurocode's instructions give you the option of doing the work on jackstands or ramps when installing their solid endlinks, so I chose ramps because it is easier/quicker than jacking up the car.

    * I got underneath and pulled the rear mufflers out of their hangers to get the rear exhaust out of the way (BTW, get one of these if you haven't already....it saves a lot of effort and frustration: http://www.amazon.com/Lisle-38350-Ex.../dp/B0012S9A5U )

    * I removed the bolt that connects the stock endlink to the lower control arm, no both sides of the car, per Eurocode instructions.

    * I removed the 10mm XZN bolts securing the sway bar mount/bushing brackets to the chassis. At this point the sway bar and endlinks are no longer bolted to the car. So at this point the sway bar and endlinks should be simple to remove from the car, right?
    WRONG. fucking WRONG.
    To the best of my ability, I could not maneuver that thing out. The endlinks interfered with the lower control arms and adjacent suspension member (not sure what it is, it's sort of a curved shaped piece above the lower control arm toward the rear of the car). So then I thought "OK, no big deal, I'll just reach in there and rotate the endlinks relative to the sway bar to put them into a position that will allow the bar+endlink to come out of the opening".
    fucking WRONG again. There was no way those endlinks were rotating relative to the bar with the limited leverage you have on them in this position, at least not with with the torqued OEM bolt holding them together. So then I thought "hmm, ok, well I guess I need to loosen that bolt to relieve the squeeze between the endlink and the bar and then I can rotate the endlink. Should be as simple as putting my 16mm socket on the head of the bolt and cranking away".
    Goddamn it, fucking WRONG a third time!
    (Side note: Eurocode's instruction manual says simply "Remove the stabilizer bar from the car" LOLOL)
    Anyway, there isn't enough clearance between the head of the screw and the strut to get a ratchet wrench with 16mm socket on there, and if you slide the bar over to gain more clearance then you don't have enough room between the lower control arm and the adjacent suspension member to actually turn the wrench. What WOULD HAVE BEEN F$%^KING AMAZING is if I had a 16mm ratcheting box wrench, but the instructions did not include this in the list of necessary tools.
    (Anyone getting bored yet?)
    So I started going at it with my 16mm combination wrench. First, though, I remounted the sway bar to the chassis with the 10mm screws and bushing brackets to prevent the bar from walking around while trying to loosen the endlink bolts. Due to the limited space between the suspension members, I had to do a sequence of incrementally turning the wrench one way, then flipping it the other way and tuning, then flipping it around and using the box wrench end to turn it another increment, then repeat, and repeat, and repeat.
    It took me probably 20 minutes to turn the screw ~3 turns. The endlink still wasn't loose enough to be rotated by hand in this position. I said FUCK this, I'm going to the hardware store and finally picking up a set of Craftsman or Gearwrench brand metric ratcheting box wrenches. I get to Sears hardware and they have various sets of 6-8 metric wrenches, but none of them, repeat NONE, included a 16mm wrench. 12, 13, 14, 15, 17, 19. WHERE THE HELL IS THE 16MM wrench?!? I found one sold by itself for $29 while the sets of 8 were priced around $70, and I said "ok, now fuck THIS! I'd rather spend an extra hour turning the crappy wrench I already have then get blatantly taken to the bank on this one tool".

    Went back home and got back to it with the 16mm combo wrench. Finally got the driver side link loose enough to move it. Went to the passenger side and started in on that sucker. Went a bit quicker since I knew the endgame but still probably ~20 minutes until that one was loose enough to move. Finally got it repositioned (just about dropped a nut in doing so). Now, with both endlinks positioned to be parallel with the end legs of the bar, surely it will just wiggle right out of position.
    Round four: *ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh* (buzzer sound) You, sir, are fucking wrong again. I spent another half hour or more trying to figure out just exactly how to get this thing out. Finally, I realized that part (if not all) of my problem is that the car was on ramps, which I'm pretty sure minimized the space between the lower control arm and adjacent suspension member, through which the sway bar ends must pass to remove from the vehicle. So I got out my scissor jack and my floor jack and jacked up the rear of the car to unload the rear suspension. (NOTE: Eurocode's instructions tell you that the installation can be performed on ramps, but I'm not really seeing how that's possible.)
    Now, with the suspension unloaded I was able to get both ends of the bar out and then it was just a matter of walking the bar along the top of the exhaust pipes and mufflers and out the back of the car. The finish on the stock bar is scraped to hell from all of this.

    We are currently at ~3.5 hours since start.

    Installation of the new equipment was relatively simple. Installed the new endlinks to the sway bar ("Stiff" position) and torqued the bolts, lubed up the new bushings and fit them to the bar, fished the bar+endlinks assembly over the exhaust just like the old one came out. And somehow, the new bar+endlinks just fit right into the suspension without any fuss. I was expecting a fight since the bar diameter is larger than stock, but it went right in with no issues.
    The bar did get a little scuffed up where it bends up into the suspension, due to having to rest it on the lower control arms while getting it positioned. Tip to prospective DIY'ers: leave the bubble wrap on the bar in those locations until after the bar is installed.

    The new endlinks resist rotation pretty well, but you can position them as needed by applying some force and they won't just flex+jump around like the crappy stock rubber ones.

    Took me 4.5 hours from start to clean-up. I'm not really happy about that. There must be something simple that I missed. Did I not need to rotate the endlinks relative to the bar in order to remove it from the car? If so, what's the trick to properly maneuvering the bar to get it out? Seems like I was always running into the exhaust pipe, the bottom of the gas tank, or both.

    Impressions
    So finally at 11:10 PM I got to take the car for a drive. I noticed no unusual sounds which was a good start. It seems that I can feel some more feedback from the road but maybe that's placebo (noticed the same thing after having my Alu Kreuz installed). Turn-in is more crisp but there is still some body roll and the feeling like the car wants to fly off on a tangent, although noticeably reduced from stock. Maybe not night-and-day, but noticeable. Still some noticeable body roll.....I'm guessing this is due to the front end of the car, where I'm sitting, having the stock bar and therefore exhibiting stock levels of flex, while the rear of the car is tightened up. Feels almost unbalanced. I think it will feel better with the front bar + endlinks installed in the "soft" position. I bet a sport-diff car with just the rear bar set to "stiff" setting would feel pretty unruly.

    I'll do some more driving tonight and post up some more thoughts. My drive to the gym is mostly winding back roads so I will have plenty of opportunities to observe the car's behavior.
    Thanks to everyone for putting up with my ranting.

    More impressions
    Got some time behind the wheel tonight, still with just the rear bar and endlinks and Alu Kreuz installed. The car is noticeably more planted when pushing it through turns. I took some turns faster and more confidently tonight in the rain more than I ever have before in dry conditions. The key for me is that the decreased body roll means less weight shift / wobble back and forth when coming out of a turn, which allows me to get on the throttle sooner and heavier and really accelerate out of the turn.
    Anxious to get the front bar and links on this weekend, if I can muster the courage to do it myself.
    Last edited by SteveYem; 06-06-2013 at 06:23 PM.
    SOLD 2015 Daytona Gray S4
    6MT / Sport Diff / B&O / Tech Pkg / Carbon Atlas / Black Alcantara
    Mods: Xpel Ultimate, 3M Color Stable Tint 35%, Bilstein PSS10, Euro Code Alu Kreuz, Eurocode Sway Bars, Moog Endlinks, CR-15, Eurocode Meisterwerk ASTS, AWE Resonated Touring Exhaust, 034 Transmission Mount, HCX LED 3000k Fog Lights, Apikol Rear Diff Mount

  2. #2
    Senior Member Two Rings
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    looking forward to you installing it and reporting back with your findings.
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  3. #3
    Veteran Member Four Rings steve0827's Avatar
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    Eurocode USS Stabilizer Bars and Solid Endlinks - my review

    X2


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  4. #4
    Senior Member Three Rings xmikegx's Avatar
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    It's almost a shame these arent more visible after installation. They look so nice! On my to do list.. Have fun with these.
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  5. #5
    Veteran Member Four Rings drob23's Avatar
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    Funny about that spline bit, I had the same issue when going to install my AK which I believe needed a 12mm, which no local hardware store carried. Ended up with this kit http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...9SIA04007C4854
    2013 S4 Monsoon Gray - S-Tronic - ADS
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  6. #6
    Veteran Member Four Rings
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    Quote Originally Posted by drob23 View Post
    Funny about that spline bit, I had the same issue when going to install my AK which I believe needed a 12mm, which no local hardware store carried. Ended up with this kit http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...9SIA04007C4854
    I saw that kit and thought the price looked very reasonable. Did these get the job done for you? Any deformation in the splines after putting some torque through it?
    SOLD 2015 Daytona Gray S4
    6MT / Sport Diff / B&O / Tech Pkg / Carbon Atlas / Black Alcantara
    Mods: Xpel Ultimate, 3M Color Stable Tint 35%, Bilstein PSS10, Euro Code Alu Kreuz, Eurocode Sway Bars, Moog Endlinks, CR-15, Eurocode Meisterwerk ASTS, AWE Resonated Touring Exhaust, 034 Transmission Mount, HCX LED 3000k Fog Lights, Apikol Rear Diff Mount

  7. #7
    Senior Member Two Rings
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    I would take care of the chipped coating prior to install. You can prep, paint, and cure properly without rushing the process or being under the car.

    Also, verify if the swaybar ends both touch the ground when set on the floor. Not a big issue if they don't, you'll just need to adjust the end links to avoid preload.
    Current: 2022 e-tron: Navarra Blue P+

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  8. #8
    Veteran Member Four Rings
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    Quote Originally Posted by grnfool View Post
    I would take care of the chipped coating prior to install. You can prep, paint, and cure properly without rushing the process or being under the car.

    Also, verify if the swaybar ends both touch the ground when set on the floor. Not a big issue if they don't, you'll just need to adjust the end links to avoid preload.
    The Eurocode instructions just say to adjust the endlinks to be the same length as the stock ones, if I remember correctly. Maybe I should read through it again.

    Regarding the coating, I'm actually planning to touch it up once it's on the car in case it gets dropped or scraped during the installation process. The affected area is right on the end so it should be accessible once installed.
    SOLD 2015 Daytona Gray S4
    6MT / Sport Diff / B&O / Tech Pkg / Carbon Atlas / Black Alcantara
    Mods: Xpel Ultimate, 3M Color Stable Tint 35%, Bilstein PSS10, Euro Code Alu Kreuz, Eurocode Sway Bars, Moog Endlinks, CR-15, Eurocode Meisterwerk ASTS, AWE Resonated Touring Exhaust, 034 Transmission Mount, HCX LED 3000k Fog Lights, Apikol Rear Diff Mount

  9. #9
    Veteran Member Four Rings drob23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveYem View Post
    I saw that kit and thought the price looked very reasonable. Did these get the job done for you? Any deformation in the splines after putting some torque through it?
    :sigh: still haven't installed the AK, hopefully this weekend. The bit fits really snug and is the proper size, so I think it should work well. They don't seem of fantastic quality but I'll let you know how it goes...
    2013 S4 Monsoon Gray - S-Tronic - ADS
    Alu Kreuz - EC USS - H&R OE - Roc Euro - Milltek Resonated - JHM Test Pipes - SPC UCA - Apikol - 034 Mounts - Forgestar CF5V - ST-60 355mm BBK - JHM LW Rotors - AMS CPS - APR Stg 2/TCU

  10. #10
    Veteran Member Four Rings mrmomo313's Avatar
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    Looking forward to your review, particularly the difference with just the rear bar and with rear set to stiff + front to soft.

  11. #11
    Senior Member Three Rings Taint Fair's Avatar
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    Eurocode USS Stabilizer Bars and Solid Endlinks - my review

    I think you're gonna love it. Just got mine installed today, because I'm lazy, and can't tell you how much happier I am. Went on a quick canyon run after picking it up and the car just seemed planted on the road. Reminded me of how my E93 M3 handled. This is how the car should have come from the factory. I set for soft on the front and stiff on the back. Also installed the Alu Kreuz at the same time so I'm not sure what made the biggest difference, but can't be happier with the results. I think you'll love it!
    2012 Audi S4 | Brilliant Red/Black | Premium+ | DSG | Sport Diff | Nav | Carbon Inlays | Advanced Key | B&O | RS4 Grill | Hoen Xenonmatch Fogs | STaSIS DSG Exhaust | 18" 5-Parallel Spoke wheels/ Winter Sport 3D(winter) | Alu Kreuz | USS Sways/Ends | P3 Vent Guage | APR Stage 2 Intake |
    FOR SALE

  12. #12
    Veteran Member Three Rings
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    Steve, looking forward to hearing how the car behaves with just the rear, particularly with regards to roll. Subscribed
    2012 S4 Prestige - Ibis and Titanium - 6MT - MMI - B&O - Rear Parking - Advanced Key
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  13. #13
    Veteran Member Four Rings QTC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveYem View Post
    I saw that kit and thought the price looked very reasonable. Did these get the job done for you? Any deformation in the splines after putting some torque through it?
    I've had this set for a few years...has held up pretty well. I highly suggest buying the whole set rather than buying one at a time - Audi uses triple square hardware throughout the car, and they're impossible to find locally, so keep them handy. FWIW, Amazon has the same set for ~$23 (free shipping with Prime).
    Dahlback | AWE | Milltek | Vogtland | H-Sport | Oettinger | Thule | OEM+

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    Veteran Member Four Rings wwhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QTC View Post
    I've had this set for a few years...has held up pretty well. I highly suggest buying the whole set rather than buying one at a time - Audi uses triple square hardware throughout the car, and they're impossible to find locally, so keep them handy. FWIW, Amazon has the same set for ~$23 (free shipping with Prime).
    I have a VIM triple square set, which seems to work fine, like this:

    http://www.amazon.com/8Pc-Triple-Squ...+triple+square
    BMW M3 Competition X-drive
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  15. #15
    Senior Member Two Rings
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveYem View Post
    The Eurocode instructions just say to adjust the endlinks to be the same length as the stock ones, if I remember correctly. Maybe I should read through it again.

    Regarding the coating, I'm actually planning to touch it up once it's on the car in case it gets dropped or scraped during the installation process. The affected area is right on the end so it should be accessible once installed.
    Yes, you're correct. The instructions tell you to set the end links to the same length as stock.

    The instructions also assume that manufacturing was exact and the swaybar bends are identical. This wasn't the case with my front sway bar. When I laid the bar on the floor with the ends pointing down, one end did not make contact with the floor. The end in the air was about half an inch off the ground. If I followed the instructions and adjusted both end links the same length as OEM, I would have had some pre-load in the swaybar. How much pre-load? I don't know, it may have been negligible but adjusting the endlinks are easy..why not just do it while you're already under the car. My .02
    Current: 2022 e-tron: Navarra Blue P+

    Previous: 2011 A4 Quartz Grey Metallic P+ 6MT Sport Package

  16. #16
    Veteran Member Four Rings
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    Updated my original post with observations/impressions/rantings, etc.
    SOLD 2015 Daytona Gray S4
    6MT / Sport Diff / B&O / Tech Pkg / Carbon Atlas / Black Alcantara
    Mods: Xpel Ultimate, 3M Color Stable Tint 35%, Bilstein PSS10, Euro Code Alu Kreuz, Eurocode Sway Bars, Moog Endlinks, CR-15, Eurocode Meisterwerk ASTS, AWE Resonated Touring Exhaust, 034 Transmission Mount, HCX LED 3000k Fog Lights, Apikol Rear Diff Mount

  17. #17
    Veteran Member Four Rings
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveYem View Post
    Updated my original post with observations/impressions/rantings, etc.
    LOL. Sounds about like most of my self-installs go. I figure it will be a hour, ends up taking 4-6...
    2013 6MT S5 - Monsoon/Black
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    Res AWE exhaust | USP intake | USS Sways | OEM 19" speedline | AluKreuz | 034 Trans mount | Interior LED | VCDS tweaks | F1 tint | Xpel PPF


    Previous : 2009 6MT A4 | Quartz/Black | Prem+ 2001 5MT A4 | Silver/Black | Premium pkg

  18. #18
    Veteran Member Four Rings
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    Quote Originally Posted by B8_Jim View Post
    LOL. Sounds about like most of my self-installs go. I figure it will be a hour, ends up taking 4-6...
    I must have missed something very basic, especially when the instructions include steps like "Remove the bar from the vehicle" and I'm sitting there for 1.5 hours wiggling and contorting and scraping the thing all to hell to get it out. Hopefully someone in the know will chime in and tell me what I did wrong, for the benefit of anyone else who is about to attempt this job in their driveway with the car on ramps.
    I'm seriously considering paying a shop an hour of labor to do the front for me. Not worth the aggravation and honestly made me a little bitter toward the whole thing.
    SOLD 2015 Daytona Gray S4
    6MT / Sport Diff / B&O / Tech Pkg / Carbon Atlas / Black Alcantara
    Mods: Xpel Ultimate, 3M Color Stable Tint 35%, Bilstein PSS10, Euro Code Alu Kreuz, Eurocode Sway Bars, Moog Endlinks, CR-15, Eurocode Meisterwerk ASTS, AWE Resonated Touring Exhaust, 034 Transmission Mount, HCX LED 3000k Fog Lights, Apikol Rear Diff Mount

  19. #19
    Veteran Member Four Rings wwhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveYem View Post
    I must have missed something very basic, especially when the instructions include steps like "Remove the bar from the vehicle" and I'm sitting there for 1.5 hours wiggling and contorting and scraping the thing all to hell to get it out. Hopefully someone in the know will chime in and tell me what I did wrong, for the benefit of anyone else who is about to attempt this job in their driveway with the car on ramps.
    I'm seriously considering paying a shop an hour of labor to do the front for me. Not worth the aggravation and honestly made me a little bitter toward the whole thing.
    The rears are the hard part, you need to unbolt the exhaust hanger to get it in. I did it on ramps. A pair of 16mm box end ratchets works well.

    The front sway bar is easy.
    BMW M3 Competition X-drive
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  20. #20
    Veteran Member Four Rings
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    Quote Originally Posted by wwhan View Post
    The rears are the hard part, you need to unbolt the exhaust hanger to get it in. I did it on ramps. A pair of 16mm box end ratchets works well.

    The front sway bar is easy.
    I did disconnect the two rear mufflers from their hangers but still had a hard time.
    When you did yours, did you have to reposition the endlinks relative to the bar in order to remove the bar from the vehicle? Or is there a certain way you can maneuver the bar out of there without changing the position of the stock endlinks?

    Thanks for the feedback on the front bar. I had assumed it would be harder just due to being closer to the engine and transmission (i.e. more crap to get in the way), but based on your vote of confidence I'll give it a try this weekend.
    SOLD 2015 Daytona Gray S4
    6MT / Sport Diff / B&O / Tech Pkg / Carbon Atlas / Black Alcantara
    Mods: Xpel Ultimate, 3M Color Stable Tint 35%, Bilstein PSS10, Euro Code Alu Kreuz, Eurocode Sway Bars, Moog Endlinks, CR-15, Eurocode Meisterwerk ASTS, AWE Resonated Touring Exhaust, 034 Transmission Mount, HCX LED 3000k Fog Lights, Apikol Rear Diff Mount

  21. #21
    Veteran Member Four Rings wwhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveYem View Post
    I did disconnect the two rear mufflers from their hangers but still had a hard time.
    When you did yours, did you have to reposition the endlinks relative to the bar in order to remove the bar from the vehicle? Or is there a certain way you can maneuver the bar out of there without changing the position of the stock endlinks?

    Thanks for the feedback on the front bar. I had assumed it would be harder just due to being closer to the engine and transmission (i.e. more crap to get in the way), but based on your vote of confidence I'll give it a try this weekend.
    I removed the original rear end links, before removing the rear bar. The first time, I did tighten the end links while on ramps, what a pain.

    Putting on the new end links is easy with jack stands, since it does not need to be at ride ride height for Ecode end link install.

    The easiest way to install the new Ecode end links is to put the rear of car on jack stands & use swivel socket with a long extension on the nut/bolt facing the center differential. Use a thin box end ratchet on the other side (facing shock).
    BMW M3 Competition X-drive
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  22. #22
    Veteran Member Four Rings
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    Let me clarify, installing the new Eurocode parts was a breeze. It's the removal of the stock bar and links that was difficult. Their instructions say the following:

    Step 2: Remove the bolts that attach the end links to the lower control arm. You will need a 16mm end wrench or ratchet with 16mm socket attached to it. Repeat for other side.

    Step 3: Remove the two sway bar bushing bracket bolts with ratchet that has a XZN 10MM triple square socket attached to it. Repeat for other side.

    Step 4: Remove sway bar from vehicle, separate the sway bar bushing bracket from the bar and place bar in a safe area. Repeat on other side.


    Steps 2 and 3 are simple. Step 4 seemed impossible. I could not figure out how to remove the stock bar, with the stock endlinks attached in their stock orientation. And the only way I could manipulate the position of the stock endlinks relative to the bar was to loosen the bolts that connect them, and that was the most difficult part. Eurocode is pretty top-notch and thorough so it seems to me that if it was truly necessary to loosen the endlink-to-swaybar bolts then their instruction manual would have covered that, but if it is truly necessary to do that then it's a big omission by Eurocode.
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    Established Member Two Rings Dubber4life's Avatar
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    When I did my install, I ran into the same issues as you did but was able to get around it pretty easily. I just unbolted the muffler hangers and the clamps for the mufflers and removed the mufflers. Gave a lot of extra space to move the bar around. Then I just jacked up the car a little to gain a little clearance between the control arm and subframe and wiggled it out in about 10-15 minutes.
    Cesar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dubber4life View Post
    When I did my install, I ran into the same issues as you did but was able to get around it pretty easily. I just unbolted the muffler hangers and the clamps for the mufflers and removed the mufflers. Gave a lot of extra space to move the bar around. Then I just jacked up the car a little to gain a little clearance between the control arm and subframe and wiggled it out in about 10-15 minutes.
    Thanks for that commentary. Makes me feel not-so-crazy. Seems to me that it is absolutely necessary to do the removal portion of the job with the rear wheels unloaded. I wish the instructions had included this caveat, as opposed to leading me down the path of doing the job with the car on ramps. And I have to admit that some of the times I got jammed up were because I did not pull the rear end of the exhaust down as much as I needed to, i.e. about twice as far down as where it went under its own weight when the rear hangers were disconnected.

    Now, for the front - should I be on ramps, or jack stands? I will be installing the Eurocode solid endlinks so I know ramps vs. jack stands doesn't matter in that regard, but as far as maneuverability goes would I be better off using jack stands or doesn't it matter for the front?
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    Established Member Two Rings Dubber4life's Avatar
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    I did the fronts on ramps too and it was way easier than the rear. Just need to remove the splash shield then undo the bolts holding the factory end links to the suspension and then undo 4 nuts holding the bar. The only thing I found to be impossible was torquing the bolt holding the Ecode endlinks to the front suspension. It is impossible to get anything other that a ratchet box wrench or regular box wrench in there. Maybe if you had a crows foot (eg. http://www.sears.com/performance-w35...4&blockType=G4) you could torque it. I just tightened it down until what I felt was close to the torque spec then did another quarter turn.
    Cesar

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  26. #26
    Veteran Member Four Rings achilleas101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveYem View Post
    Impressions
    So finally at 11:10 PM I got to take the car for a drive. I noticed no unusual sounds which was a good start. It seems that I can feel some more feedback from the road but maybe that's placebo (noticed the same thing after having my Alu Kreuz installed). Turn-in is more crisp but there is still some body roll and the feeling like the car wants to fly off on a tangent, although noticeably reduced from stock. Maybe not night-and-day, but noticeable. Still some noticeable body roll.....I'm guessing this is due to the front end of the car, where I'm sitting, having the stock bar and therefore exhibiting stock levels of flex, while the rear of the car is tightened up. Feels almost unbalanced. I think it will feel better with the front bar + endlinks installed in the "soft" position. I bet a sport-diff car with just the rear bar set to "stiff" setting would feel pretty unruly.

    I'll do some more driving tonight and post up some more thoughts. My drive to the gym is mostly winding back roads so I will have plenty of opportunities to observe the car's behavior.
    Thanks to everyone for putting up with my ranting.

    More impressions
    Got some time behind the wheel tonight, still with just the rear bar and endlinks and Alu Kreuz installed. The car is noticeably more planted when pushing it through turns. I took some turns faster and more confidently tonight in the rain more than I ever have before in dry conditions. The key for me is that the decreased body roll means less weight shift / wobble back and forth when coming out of a turn, which allows me to get on the throttle sooner and heavier and really accelerate out of the turn.
    Anxious to get the front bar and links on this weekend, if I can muster the courage to do it myself.

    if you're concerned about body roll, have you done anything to your shocks? i.e. get stiffer ones? in your sig you mention sport springs, but nothing about shocks. those can make a HUGE difference. when i swapped out the stock sport shocks in my B6 A4 with Koni Yellow adjustable shocks, i initially set them to 1/4 turn from full stiff, and i had so little body roll it was crazy. i mean, the nose of the car barely moved up on hard acceleration, and didn't dive down on hard braking. i couldn't believe it. but of course the ride was way too harsh so i softened them up to the 50% stiff mark. these finding were without any mod to the springs or sway bars or anything of the sort. just the shocks.

    i'm finding that the S4 has a lot more roll than i had with my A4, stock to stock, and the ride feels softer too - as in going over rough road isn't as harsh (at least on similar tires/wheels). i'm not sure if that's because the shocks are softer or what.

    i don't know what kind of adjustable shocks are out there for our cars, but if you want less body roll on a track, i'd try to find something that's adjustable and stiffer than our stock ones, and then adjust them when you're off the track.
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    Veteran Member Four Rings wwhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveYem View Post
    Let me clarify, installing the new Eurocode parts was a breeze. It's the removal of the stock bar and links that was difficult....
    I guess it is a good thing I don't always follow instructions exactly. I think you are right, Eurocode should update the instructions and just suggest to do the rear sway bar on jack stands, it's a lot easier.

    The only reason to consider ramps is the installing the OEM end links. But, the OEM end links can be torqued on jack stands also, by using floor jack to compress the rear spring lower control arm to normal compressed load (one does not need to do this with the Ecode end links).

    The front bar is easy on ramps. I use a long box end on the upper bolt & torque till it feels right for 29ftlbs (also use blue Loctite).
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    Veteran Member Four Rings wwhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by achilleas101 View Post
    if you're concerned about body roll, have you done anything to your shocks? i.e. get stiffer ones? in your sig you mention sport springs, but nothing about shocks. those can make a HUGE difference. when i swapped out the stock sport shocks in my B6 A4 with Koni Yellow adjustable shocks, i initially set them to 1/4 turn from full stiff, and i had so little body roll it was crazy. i mean, the nose of the car barely moved up on hard acceleration, and didn't dive down on hard braking. i couldn't believe it. but of course the ride was way too harsh so i softened them up to the 50% stiff mark. these finding were without any mod to the springs or sway bars or anything of the sort. just the shocks.

    i'm finding that the S4 has a lot more roll than i had with my A4, stock to stock, and the ride feels softer too - as in going over rough road isn't as harsh (at least on similar tires/wheels). i'm not sure if that's because the shocks are softer or what.

    i don't know what kind of adjustable shocks are out there for our cars, but if you want less body roll on a track, i'd try to find something that's adjustable and stiffer than our stock ones, and then adjust them when you're off the track.
    The benefit of the stiffer sway bar is to reduce the roll without overly stiff springs and shocks
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    Quote Originally Posted by achilleas101 View Post
    if you're concerned about body roll, have you done anything to your shocks? i.e. get stiffer ones? in your sig you mention sport springs, but nothing about shocks. those can make a HUGE difference. when i swapped out the stock sport shocks in my B6 A4 with Koni Yellow adjustable shocks, i initially set them to 1/4 turn from full stiff, and i had so little body roll it was crazy. i mean, the nose of the car barely moved up on hard acceleration, and didn't dive down on hard braking. i couldn't believe it. but of course the ride was way too harsh so i softened them up to the 50% stiff mark. these finding were without any mod to the springs or sway bars or anything of the sort. just the shocks.

    i'm finding that the S4 has a lot more roll than i had with my A4, stock to stock, and the ride feels softer too - as in going over rough road isn't as harsh (at least on similar tires/wheels). i'm not sure if that's because the shocks are softer or what.

    i don't know what kind of adjustable shocks are out there for our cars, but if you want less body roll on a track, i'd try to find something that's adjustable and stiffer than our stock ones, and then adjust them when you're off the track.
    I have noticed reduced body roll with just the rear bar and solid links installed, although of course it's not eliminated completely. For me the benefit is that decreased body roll plus stiffer chassis bracing means less side-to-side oscillation when exiting a turn, meaning I can get on the throttle more swiftly and with more confidence, not to mention the steering feels much more direct in this scenario. And I think the front bar+solid links will serve to clean up some of the "mushy" feeling that I am getting from the front end.
    To answer your question, I am running H&R OE sport springs on the stock shocks. I actually do not plan to install stiffer shocks because this is my DD and I do not want to make the ride any more unpleasant. This car will not see any track duty under my ownership, just some spirited driving on twisty back roads.


    Quote Originally Posted by wwhan View Post
    I guess it is a good thing I don't always follow instructions exactly. I think you are right, Eurocode should update the instructions and just suggest to do the rear sway bar on jack stands, it's a lot easier.

    The only reason to consider ramps is the installing the OEM end links. But, the OEM end links can be torqued on jack stands also, by using floor jack to compress the rear spring lower control arm to normal compressed load (one does not need to do this with the Ecode end links).

    The front bar is easy on ramps. I use a long box end on the upper bolt & torque till it feels right for 29ftlbs (also use blue Loctite).

    Thanks for the suggestion on the blue ('removable') Loctite. I use it all the time at work and probably never would have thought to use it for my personal projects haha. I guess I'm good at compartmentalizing (or bad at seeing the big picture). That will certainly make me feel better if a torque wrench does not fit. I suppose a crow's foot would work, but I will likely only resort to buying another tool if I notice an issue with the bar after installing (creaking, knocking, etc.). Not to mention, using a crow's foot throws off the torque reading anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by wwhan View Post
    The benefit of the stiffer sway bar is to reduce the roll without overly stiff springs and shocks
    I agree, and my observations support that theory.
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    Veteran Member Four Rings achilleas101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wwhan View Post
    The benefit of the stiffer sway bar is to reduce the roll without overly stiff springs and shocks
    oh i know.. i just posted that because the fact that the OP put in stiffer springs would make me think he'd put in stiffer shocks. usually the 2 would go hand in hand, since you want the spring rate to be a match with the shock.
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    Hey Steve, when you have everything installed, let me know. Maybe we can meet up and test drive each other's car to compare the difference between sways+endlinks+springs+crossmember vs coilovers+crossmember.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dawei213 View Post
    Hey Steve, when you have everything installed, let me know. Maybe we can meet up and test drive each other's car to compare the difference between sways+endlinks+springs+crossmember vs coilovers+crossmember.
    Please post your findings if you guys do this, would be very interesting!

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    Quote Originally Posted by dawei213 View Post
    Hey Steve, when you have everything installed, let me know. Maybe we can meet up and test drive each other's car to compare the difference between sways+endlinks+springs+crossmember vs coilovers+crossmember.
    I finished up the front bar and links on Saturday so it's all done. I'll shoot you a message in the coming weeks when I'm free.
    It would be a good comparo for sure, although I think we will need to put your handy-dandy sport diff in Comfort mode to really make an apples to non-sport-diff-rotten-oranges comparison : )

    I haven't gotten a chance to drive it much since installing the front bar and links, but the little I have driven gives me the following impressions (subject to change as I log more wheel time):

    1) When hitting bumps/imperfections in a turn, they feel more like a "thud" than a "crash". Meanwhile, the car feels like it wants to 'hop' sideways if the bump/imperfection is drastic enough and if I'm heavy enough into the turn

    2) The car feels more "solid" around turns, but almost feels like it wants to plow more now than it did when I just had the rear bar and links installed. I am feeling more resistance in the steering wheel and maybe I am mistaking that for an unbalanced plowing sensation, when I really just need to fight back a little harder to keep the car in the turn. Again, I don't have the sport diff to overcome any inherent understeer the car has. Note, my rear bar is set to full stiff and the front is set to full soft. I think the car felt more "playful" with just the rear bar and links installed, but I'm going to give it some more time and see how I really feel about that.

    3) The car feels very flat going through turns. Feels like now my tires are the limiting factor.

    4) Less roll in the turns means less oscillations side-to-side when exiting turns, means higher confidence in rolling heavy onto the throttle coming out of the turn

    5) There is no noticeable change in ride quality when driving in a straight line. I didn't really expect there to be, but I wasn't sure so I'm just posting this sentiment as an FYI.

    6) I feel very happy knowing I have the full complement of Made-in-USA Eurocode suspension goodies bolted to the belly of my car. Once again the Americans are keeping the Germans in line : )
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveYem View Post
    I finished up the front bar and links on Saturday so it's all done. I'll shoot you a message in the coming weeks when I'm free.
    It would be a good comparo for sure, although I think we will need to put your handy-dandy sport diff in Comfort mode to really make an apples to non-sport-diff-rotten-oranges comparison : )

    I haven't gotten a chance to drive it much since installing the front bar and links, but the little I have driven gives me the following impressions (subject to change as I log more wheel time):

    1) When hitting bumps/imperfections in a turn, they feel more like a "thud" than a "crash". Meanwhile, the car feels like it wants to 'hop' sideways if the bump/imperfection is drastic enough and if I'm heavy enough into the turn

    2) The car feels more "solid" around turns, but almost feels like it wants to plow more now than it did when I just had the rear bar and links installed. I am feeling more resistance in the steering wheel and maybe I am mistaking that for an unbalanced plowing sensation, when I really just need to fight back a little harder to keep the car in the turn. Again, I don't have the sport diff to overcome any inherent understeer the car has. Note, my rear bar is set to full stiff and the front is set to full soft. I think the car felt more "playful" with just the rear bar and links installed, but I'm going to give it some more time and see how I really feel about that.

    3) The car feels very flat going through turns. Feels like now my tires are the limiting factor.

    4) Less roll in the turns means less oscillations side-to-side when exiting turns, means higher confidence in rolling heavy onto the throttle coming out of the turn

    5) There is no noticeable change in ride quality when driving in a straight line. I didn't really expect there to be, but I wasn't sure so I'm just posting this sentiment as an FYI.

    6) I feel very happy knowing I have the full complement of Made-in-USA Eurocode suspension goodies bolted to the belly of my car. Once again the Americans are keeping the Germans in line : )
    I'm no suspension guru, but I've always felt like these cars have a high caster offset. Compared to my dad's B7 S4, the steering wheel wants to straighten itself out in turns much more. This resistance didn't seem to change much stock vs. bars + links (mine are also set to the recommended front soft, rear stiff).

    I have also felt some plow in tight corners a few times after installing bars + links. This may just be more perceptible to me now that the whole car is more communicative and responsive though. Slow in, fast out still applies as this is a nose-heavy car after all, though rotation on throttle and chassis responsiveness are definitely improved with the USS.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveYem View Post
    I finished up the front bar and links on Saturday so it's all done. I'll shoot you a message in the coming weeks when I'm free.
    It would be a good comparo for sure, although I think we will need to put your handy-dandy sport diff in Comfort mode to really make an apples to non-sport-diff-rotten-oranges comparison : )

    I haven't gotten a chance to drive it much since installing the front bar and links, but the little I have driven gives me the following impressions (subject to change as I log more wheel time):

    1) When hitting bumps/imperfections in a turn, they feel more like a "thud" than a "crash". Meanwhile, the car feels like it wants to 'hop' sideways if the bump/imperfection is drastic enough and if I'm heavy enough into the turn

    2) The car feels more "solid" around turns, but almost feels like it wants to plow more now than it did when I just had the rear bar and links installed. I am feeling more resistance in the steering wheel and maybe I am mistaking that for an unbalanced plowing sensation, when I really just need to fight back a little harder to keep the car in the turn. Again, I don't have the sport diff to overcome any inherent understeer the car has. Note, my rear bar is set to full stiff and the front is set to full soft. I think the car felt more "playful" with just the rear bar and links installed, but I'm going to give it some more time and see how I really feel about that.

    3) The car feels very flat going through turns. Feels like now my tires are the limiting factor.

    4) Less roll in the turns means less oscillations side-to-side when exiting turns, means higher confidence in rolling heavy onto the throttle coming out of the turn

    5) There is no noticeable change in ride quality when driving in a straight line. I didn't really expect there to be, but I wasn't sure so I'm just posting this sentiment as an FYI.

    6) I feel very happy knowing I have the full complement of Made-in-USA Eurocode suspension goodies bolted to the belly of my car. Once again the Americans are keeping the Germans in line : )
    Great review, Steve. As a fellow non-sport diff guy, I'm really interested to hear your final impressions re: rear bar only vs full sway set.
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    Quote Originally Posted by motionneon View Post
    Great review, Steve. As a fellow non-sport diff guy, I'm really interested to hear your final impressions re: rear bar only vs full sway set.
    I had a feeling you'd be following along here : )
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveYem View Post
    I had a feeling you'd be following along here : )
    Yeah. Sorry to let you down before. But after changing my mind at least a thousand times I finally decided to buy her off lease. The extra money and hassle just didn't seem worth it for me. Did not feel like I was missing all that much without sports diff. also, since all of my previous cars were manual transmission and this is the first car i ever owned with a dual clutch automatic, I realize that it in itself is quite unique. Now I'm back to modding away.
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    Quote Originally Posted by motionneon View Post
    Yeah. Sorry to let you down before. But after changing my mind at least a thousand times I finally decided to buy her off lease. The extra money and hassle just didn't seem worth it for me. Did not feel like I was missing all that much without sports diff. also, since all of my previous cars were manual transmission and this is the first car i ever owned with a dual clutch automatic, I realize that it in itself is quite unique. Now I'm back to modding away.
    Don't worry about it! Ultimately I'm glad I did not plunk down the big bucks to trade in for a sport-diff model. The Eurocode setup seems like a great alternatice so far. I need to work out out one issue with the front endlinks before I can really solidify my review, though. Specifically, when I installed the front bar and endlinks I had to apply a considerable amount of force to pull down the sway bar so that the upper endlink hole would line up with the threaded hole in the strut fork. I basically had to hang on it to get the holes to line up so that I could get the bolt started. The result is a lot of pre-load in the assembly which is noticeable in that the car wants to dart one way or the other over any road imperfection, and the steering wheel really tries to unwind itself when I'm powering through a turn.

    The problem is that I had set the new endlink to the exact length of the stock link (per the Eurocode instructions), but in fact I should have adjusted the link on the car until the holes lined up without having to apply any force on the bar. I talked through it with David at Eurocode and he explained that not all sway bars are manufactured equal, and also the position of the strut fork could be different from one side to the other, so the beauty of adjustable endlinks is that you can adjust the length to suit the "as-built" distance between the sway bar hole and suspension fork hole and avoid any pre-load in the system.

    I'm hoping to get back under the car tomorrow evening to fix this issue and then take the car out to get further impressions.
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    Steve
    Thanks for the review. Now that you've stiffened up the front I'm sure your perception of the car wanting to plow more compared to the the rear-only set up is accurate.

    This is totally subjective of course but how would you rate the trade off in reducing body roll vs the "playful" feeling of just having the rear bars and links? I want to dial out my body roll but if the car felt that lively with just rear stiffer in relation to the front I'm not sure I'd want to give it up. In another thread, David/Eurocode had commented that the end links improved stiffness by about 22%. Hearing your account, what I am considering doing is upgrade the front bar set to soft on stock links and upgrade the rear bar set to stiff plus end links in an attempt to retain some of the playful rear action that you initially described but with the front roll contained.
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    1991 Ducati 851 - 888cc High Compression Pistons - Big Valve Corsa Heads - High Flow Fuel Injectors - Open Airbox - Braided Steel Lines - Corbin Seat - Fast by Ferracci Chip and Mufflers - Carbon Fiber bits

    Hex-Can-USB in Northern NJ

  40. #40
    Veteran Member Three Rings
    Join Date
    Aug 18 2011
    AZ Member #
    79982
    Location
    Seattle, WA

    Quote Originally Posted by Schadenfreude View Post
    Steve
    Thanks for the review. Now that you've stiffened up the front I'm sure your perception of the car wanting to plow more compared to the the rear-only set up is accurate.

    This is totally subjective of course but how would you rate the trade off in reducing body roll vs the "playful" feeling of just having the rear bars and links? I want to dial out my body roll but if the car felt that lively with just rear stiffer in relation to the front I'm not sure I'd want to give it up. In another thread, David/Eurocode had commented that the end links improved stiffness by about 22%. Hearing your account, what I am considering doing is upgrade the front bar set to soft on stock links and upgrade the rear bar set to stiff plus end links in an attempt to retain some of the playful rear action that you initially described but with the front roll contained.
    From what I've heard, it would be better to just upgrade the front links, leaving the front stock bar if you want something a bit firmer than stock. The EC end links are great for dialing out some slop and apparently a stiffer bar on stock endlinks makes them wear down faster.

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