Wheel Bolts: Ball Seat v. Cone Seat

**Greg Nelson** · 05-15-2013 07:31 PM

We all know that A4 B8 OEM rims use ball seat bolts - well I hope we do

However many posts over the years have stated that aftermarket rims use cone seat bolts.
VMR rims, and at least one other manufacturer mentioned recently (can't recall name) in actuality use ball seat bolts - they fail to mention this on their websites.

Could this - installing cone seat bolts instead of ball seat bolts - be a cause of problem that so many aftermarket rim owners are experiencing high-speed wheel vibration issues?
Input welcome re your aftermarket rim experiences, and whether specific manufacturers indicate ball seat or cone set usage.

Looking to help the new member community.
Cheers

**RainReign** · 05-15-2013 07:54 PM

VMR and Hartmann - Ball seat for sure.

Hartmann does say for each wheel description that they're ball seat.

It is weird that it's not something that is put right up front by all the manufacturers. The rep at the company I bought my VMRs through was even unsure about the seat that they used. Some quick research on the forums got the answer though.

**Greg Nelson** · 05-15-2013 08:04 PM

Originally Posted by RainReign

. The rep at the company I bought my VMRs through was even unsure about the seat that they used. Some quick research on the forums got the answer though.

I had the same experience, VMR after seller in CA told me I needed cone seats, so I bought 20. installer, knowing better, used the OEM ball seat.
Waste of money.

**TheHeiko** · 05-15-2013 09:49 PM

I have been told that using cone seat bolts when ball seat bolts are needed could be dangerous as the conical shape does not get properly supported in ball seats. Your theory about complaints about vibration seems plausible. I recently bought a set of H&R spacers with bolts and I discovered they are cone seat bolts and I will not use them on my OEM ball seat wheels. The seller is an AZ member and I believe that he used them with OEM wheels and used those bolts. Giving him the benefit of the doubt, I think someone sold him the wrong bolts and he never really knew the difference and got lucky that he never had a problem.

**Liquid Smoke** · 05-15-2013 10:47 PM

what about replica OEM wheels from like modbargains or oemwheelsplus, are those ball just like the OEM?

**Wah** · 05-15-2013 11:08 PM

Almost all aftermarket wheels use cone seat bolts. TSW is one of them.
My vibration issue was greatly diminished once I switched to cone bolts.... so you're theory does have some light to it.

**John@Roc-Euro** · 05-16-2013 07:36 AM

It is definitely NOT a good idea to mix and match bolt type and wheel type. No no no.

Think of it like this:

ball to ball- mates flush upon contact and immediately begins to allow application of torque to secure the wheel.

Cone to cone- mates flush upon contact and immediately begins to allow application of torque to secure the wheel.

Cone to ball- cone mates to inner diameter of ball seat and due to being soft aluminum (compared to steel bolt), the wheel immediately begins to deform, under the guise of 'torque' being applied. In short, you could likely crank until the cows come home and still be coming up short on effectively tightening the wheel down.. all while destroying the wheel's ball seat..

Ball to cone- ball contacts tangential to cone seat, implies solid mate and you begin to torque.. torque rating 'achieved' with lesser clamping force than implies.. wheel is not really tight and can shift.

Make sure you physically check any wheel before you install it. VMR and Hartmann use ball seat which is great because you can reuse OEM lugs. Most other companies do NOT, and should tell you, so be ready for new hardware in that department!

**jshwon** · 05-24-2013 11:56 AM

Wanted to bump this for a question I have. The wheels I am putting on the car take ball seat which is a good thing as that is what the OEM bolts are. The question is will I be able to run the OEM bolt (27mm) with my aftermarket wheels? I know I'd still need to test fit the wheels. I will not be running any spacers (hopefully). The wheels are 19x9.5 et40 with 225/40 tire.

**zee007** · 05-24-2013 12:25 PM

Just FYI - rotiform (at least the SNA) use ball seat.

**TCHUN003** · 05-24-2013 12:31 PM

IIRC, you want to get 8 full turns of engagement. Just measure how many mm's the stock lugs stick out past the oem wheel and compare it to your new wheels

**jshwon** · 05-24-2013 01:43 PM

Originally Posted by TCHUN003

IIRC, you want to get 8 full turns of engagement. Just measure how many mm's the stock lugs stick out past the oem wheel and compare it to your new wheels

Good reference point. Thanks

**jbradle7** · 05-24-2013 06:49 PM

Originally Posted by zee007

Just FYI - rotiform (at least the SNA) use ball seat.

My BLQ's use ball-seat as well

**Liquid Smoke** · 05-25-2013 12:16 PM

so even replica OEM wheels still use cone seat? or do the replicas use ball since they are a copy of the OEM wheel design?

**Greg Nelson** · 05-25-2013 12:33 PM

Originally Posted by Liquid Smoke

so even replica OEM wheels still use cone seat? or do the replicas use ball since they are a copy of the OEM wheel design?

Why I posted this thread. Doesn't seem to be whether its a replica OEM rim, rather rim manufacturer.

At this time, based on input -
VMR - ball seat
Hartmann - ball eat
Rotiform - at least some ball seat
TSW - cone seat

Lots of others not yet heard from, HRE, Advan, BBS, BBS replicas, etc.

Mod bargains - they sell several mfgr. rims - call them.
Cheers

EDIT: corrected a couple things for you, Greg. FYI- BLQ is a Rotiform wheel design.

**dracolnyte** · 05-25-2013 12:51 PM

thanks for letting me know TSW is cone, was thinking about them.

**Blake P** · 05-25-2013 01:02 PM

FWIW, my ADV.1 wheels used ball seat wheels, as they communicated that they build their wheels to accept OEM lugs so there is no need to buy/supply additional hardware. My HRE wheels used conical, which were supplied with my order. When I've purchased other quality aftermarket wheels (BBS, etc.), most times new bolts were provided if OEM bolts were not to be used. If your wheel dealer does not provide them, they should at least be able to sell them to you for a nominal fee. If they don't know what bolts to use, you probably need to find a new dealer...

**Greg Nelson** · 05-25-2013 01:11 PM

Originally Posted by Blake P

FWIW, my ADV.1 wheels used ball seat wheels, as they communicated that they build their wheels to accept OEM lugs so there is no need to buy/supply additional hardware. My HRE wheels used conical, which were supplied with my order. When I've purchased other quality aftermarket wheels (BBS, etc.), most times new bolts were provided if OEM bolts were not to be used. If your wheel dealer does not provide them, they should at least be able to sell them to you for a nominal fee. If they don't know what bolts to use, you probably need to find a new dealer...

Blake, you had HREs previously - did they use cone or ball seats.

I want to disprove the 'urban legend' that ALL aftermarket rims use cone seat bolts.
Cheers

**Blake P** · 05-25-2013 01:23 PM

My HRE's used conical, but they are completely custom so I'm sure if you asked for ball seat they would make them that way. To further complicate matters, there are 3 ball radius sizes, so you need to know if the wheels are made to accept, R12, R13, or R14 lugs. Thankfully, there is only one cone size, which is probably why aftermarket manufacturers typically use them to avoid confusion/liability.

**Jlambe67** · 10-30-2014 09:19 AM

Updating thread ecs tuning alzor wheels use both con and ball seat. so be sure to check before ordering

**ultra** · 10-31-2014 10:42 AM

does anyone know on BBS?

**AvusPdx** · 06-03-2017 10:05 AM

resurrecting this thread from the dead. Just want to make sure all TSW wheels are cone seat lugs. I've had a horrible experience with lug choices (cone on ball seat) and want to make sure. Wheels are TSW Bathursts. TSW website didn't have a description.

**BrewDude** · 06-03-2017 01:54 PM

Originally Posted by ultra

does anyone know on BBS?

BBS is cone.

**ets141** · 07-22-2017 11:01 AM

Originally Posted by Blake P

FWIW, my ADV.1 wheels used ball seat wheels, as they communicated that they build their wheels to accept OEM lugs so there is no need to buy/supply additional hardware. My HRE wheels used conical, which were supplied with my order. When I've purchased other quality aftermarket wheels (BBS, etc.), most times new bolts were provided if OEM bolts were not to be used. If your wheel dealer does not provide them, they should at least be able to sell them to you for a nominal fee. If they don't know what bolts to use, you probably need to find a new dealer...

Heres a black spline bolt I pulled off my set of ADV10's. The previous owner or other installer appeared to use conical seats and the wear pattern shows exactly where the seat was contacting;

**Boston RS5** · 04-13-2020 02:47 PM

Without starting another thread, I'll raise this one from the dead. Basic question. Are our Audi stock rims and more importantly our stock lug bolts 'Ball' or 'Conical'. I believe they are 'Ball' but need to confirm.

**Blake P** · 04-13-2020 02:52 PM

Originally Posted by Boston RS5

Without starting another thread, I'll raise this one from the dead. Basic question. Are our Audi stock rims and more importantly our stock lug bolts 'Ball' or 'Conical'. I believe they are 'Ball' but need to confirm.

Ball