Apr k04 v1 versus v2, dyno results are in!!!!

[Arin@APR]

Comparison between the 2 graphs:

I think this graph is throwing everyone off.

This is a graph of Horsepower and BOOST. The other lines are not torque.

[Arin@APR]

Here are the two dyno charts overlaid.

Red is v2

Blue is v1.

There is basically no loss of low end torque. Just more linear and more everything all over. : )

[Highlander1010]

Here are the two dyno charts overlaid.

Red is v2

Blue is v1.

There is basically no loss of low end torque. Just more linear and more everything all over. : )

So looking forward to this!

[K1_Builder]

I think this graph is throwing everyone off.

This is a graph of Horsepower and BOOST. The other lines are not torque.

better? Wrong hyperlink. Sorry. And APR, I am not trying to dis on you guys. I am totally happy.

Why would we not be interested in selling the APR K04 kit for the B8 A4?

The reason power is different is it's a different engine with terrible intercooling.

The fact most customers are tiptronic and quattro doesn't help for power figures at the wheels compared to a 6MT front wheel drive vehicle. The transmission and drivetrain losses add up quickly, and make the results much different.

So since I have the Eurocode FMIC and a 6spd, would that make a difference? Road trip to Alabama to be a guinea pig and hush up haters for a free tune?!?!

[dscline]

Why would we not be interested in selling the APR K04 kit for the B8 A4?

I have no idea, that's why I'm so puzzled. Questions about the K04 tune have been coming up for quite a while, but they are never addressed, and no new information has been posted on your site, so without any further clarification, I'm left to perceive that as lack of interest, or something mysterious.

The reason power is different is it's a different engine with terrible intercooling.

Ok, THAT is helpful. If you help us understand what the limitations are, we can have more realistic expectations, and even plan our builds to possibly help alleviate them. As far as the engine being different, I was basing that on your comment here that said the engine was the same just mounted differently. If there's more to it than that, that's fine, I'm just trying to understand it. I know the stock HP/torque figures are a little different, but I just assumed they were different tunes... Audi has been known to do that for a long time. If part of the answer is a better intercooler, then that's good news, since that can be alleviated. But one of the bigger mysteries to me is why the power seems to come on sooner on the transverse application. Seems to me the intercooler would only be a significant factor at the higher end of the band.

The fact most customers are tiptronic and quattro doesn't help for power figures at the wheels compared to a 6MT front wheel drive vehicle. The transmission and drivetrain losses add up quickly, and make the results much different.

But I'm comparing your "crank" graphs for each platform. I know the the tips and quattros will hurt wheel HP. That's why we're trying to get as much at the crank as possible!

I'm not trying to rag on you guys... on the contrary, if there wasn't interest in your products, we wouldn't even be hounding you for answers. But this is an "enthusiast" site, and speaking for myself and probably many others, I like discussing these things and understanding them, especially when there's the potential of me spending lots of money on these toys. We just tend to get frustrated when we can't get the information we crave. The more you help us understand the issues, the more accepting we will be with the limitations.

[PaperishPlastic]

That's kind of how I'm seeing it too. Since it's the same hardware, I don't understand why a sacrifice needs to be made in the lower RPMs to get more in the higher RPMs. In fact, the result is the opposite of what I was hoping V2 did. In my post here I compared the graphs of the B8 K04 kit to the K04 kit for the TT. Same engine, same turbo, but the TT kit not only makes more power, but also brings it on at a lower RPM than the B8 kit. I was HOPING V2 would make the B8 kit more similar to the TT kit. Interestingly, both K1 and NYSpeedRacer previously mentioned noticing some hesitation around 3k RPM in the V2 update, and you can see it in the V1/V2 comparison graph above. That's where the V1 map has a bit of a torque surge, and the V2 has a bit of a torque dip.

I really, really want more power, but I don't want to give up any low speed punch to get it. K04 does great things for the upper band, and the V2 improvement in that area is admirable. If only they could tweak it to make it more similar to the K04 upgrade for the transverse engines, it would be MUCH more appealing.

I dont understand How are you giving up low speed punch.

[K1_Builder]

Damn, such controversy. I was just hoping to show you guys how much better V2 is over V1!!! lol. I was only expecting neglible gains. Maybe around 10 hp. But guys, I gained 35 WHP!!!! FOR FREE!!!

[dscline]

I dont understand How are you giving up low speed punch.

The more power you have in the lower RPM ranges, the faster you can jump off the line. I'm looking at it from the perspective of deciding between Stg2 or K04. Stg2 should have a faster initial surge of power, while K04 has a lot more once you get going. The plots for the transverse K04 SEEMS to be a nice compromise... bringing on power a little sooner while still having plenty in the upper ranges, which is why I'm so hung up on that.

Damn, such controversy. I was just hoping to show you guys how much better V2 is over V1!!! lol. I was only expecting neglible gains. Maybe around 10 hp. But guys, I gained 35 WHP!!!! FOR FREE!!!

Sorry, I'm not trying to make it a controversy, just looking for information.

[Highlander1010]

Ok, THAT is helpful. If you help us understand what the limitations are, we can have more realistic expectations, and even plan our builds to possibly help alleviate them. As far as the engine being different, I was basing that on your comment here that said the engine was the same just mounted differently. If there's more to it than that, that's fine, I'm just trying to understand it. I know the stock HP/torque figures are a little different, but I just assumed they were different tunes... Audi has been known to do that for a long time. If part of the answer is a better intercooler, then that's good news, since that can be alleviated. But one of the bigger mysteries to me is why the power seems to come on sooner on the transverse application. Seems to me the intercooler would only be a significant factor at the higher end of the band.

FYI on this - I have a CTS Turbo upgrated FMIC that I included in my car when I was still APR Stage II. It made a HUGE, noticeable difference on Stage II alone.

The more power you have in the lower RPM ranges, the faster you can jump off the line. I'm looking at it from the perspective of deciding between Stg2 or K04. Stg2 should have a faster initial surge of power, while K04 has a lot more once you get going. The plots for the transverse K04 SEEMS to be a nice compromise... bringing on power a little sooner while still having plenty in the upper ranges, which is why I'm so hung up on that.

Personally (Quattro + Tip), I felt no difference off the line with my K04 after having APR Stage II for over a year. I'm looking forward to proving that the same on the V2 file.

[Arin@APR]

better? Wrong hyperlink. Sorry. And APR, I am not trying to dis on you guys. I am totally happy.

Oh, I'm taking 0 offense to your post! That other link helps a lot. The first one was confusing (I was confused at first!)

So since I have the Eurocode FMIC and a 6spd, would that make a difference? Road trip to Alabama to be a guinea pig and hush up haters for a free tune?!?!

We've tested the exact same combo in house. An upgraded intercooler helps for sure!

I have no idea, that's why I'm so puzzled. Questions about the K04 tune have been coming up for quite a while, but they are never addressed, and no
new information has been posted on your site, so without any further clarification, I'm left to perceive that as lack of interest, or something mysterious.

I'll see about getting the info up. Truth be told, I thought it was. I think this all happened around waterfest, so I got slammed and never had a chance to put up the info.

But I'm comparing your "crank" graphs for each platform. I know the the tips and quattros will hurt wheel HP. That's why we're trying to get as much at the crank as possible!

Part of that comes from estimating a little conservatively early.

Damn, such controversy. I was just hoping to show you guys how much better V2 is over V1!!! lol. I was only expecting neglible gains. Maybe around
10 hp. But guys, I gained 35 WHP!!!! FOR FREE!!!

I''m not mad or upset with anyone. More info is good for all. : )

[PaperishPlastic]

The more power you have in the lower RPM ranges, the faster you can jump off the line. I'm looking at it from the perspective of deciding between Stg2 or K04. Stg2 should have a faster initial surge of power, while K04 has a lot more once you get going. The plots for the transverse K04 SEEMS to be a nice compromise... bringing on power a little sooner while still having plenty in the upper ranges, which is why I'm so hung up on that.



Sorry, I'm not trying to make it a controversy, just looking for information.

Your looking at it the wrong way. what it makes slightly less horsepower for the first 2000-3000 RPM? how long does it take you to Rev from 800RPM-4000RPM in 1st gear? half a second? Less? well thats all you will lose out on the first half second, after 1st gear it doesnt make a difference, just stay in the higher RPM's and you wont have an issue. The car will be much faster.

[PaperishPlastic]

never mind, I saw arins post on the 2nd page, you dont lose anything on the low end and gain on the top end. Its a win win situation.

[oc cc]

Can the K04 be tuned more aggressively with an intercooler? Wouldn't surprise me if we can squeeze a little more power out of it.

[NYSpeedRacer]

Arin, if I take my car down to your shop, can you guys see why there is a hesitation around 3k RPMs?


Sent telepathically

[dscline]

Your looking at it the wrong way. what it makes slightly less horsepower for the first 2000-3000 RPM? how long does it take you to Rev from 800RPM-4000RPM in 1st gear? half a second? Less?

First off, sorry for derailing this thread. But to respond, I understand what you're saying, but one of the biggest frustrations I've had with this car since getting it is the lag. Living in the city and having to dart out in traffic on a daily basis has been frustrating. Start from a stop, I punch the pedal, and sit there for one second before anything happens while traffic is coming towards me. I know part of it is due to DBW, part of it is the auto tranny, and part of it is turbo lag. Each part may be a small moment, but they all add up, and I don't want to do anything to make matters worse. K04 is very tempting, but when I look at the graphs that show it having less power than stock below 2400 RPM, I get nervous. My past car was a NA V6 with a MT, so perhaps my expectations are just too high. Stg 2+ should help improve the situation, I'm just trying to quantify how K04 would compare. Without being able to "try before you buy", you tend to over-sweat the details. But it is reassuring that others don't notice any additional lag.

[englishbay]

But guys, I gained 35 WHP!!!! FOR FREE!!!

Ok there are a couple posts talking about WHP, I will have to ask the question....are the dyno's wheel or crank horse power?

[Okan509]

6MT > auto lulz

[Arin@APR]

Can the K04 be tuned more aggressively with an intercooler? Wouldn't surprise me if we can squeeze a little more power out of it.

Yes, and it is. IAT compensation is built into the ECU.

Arin, if I take my car down to your shop, can you guys see why there is a hesitation around 3k RPMs?


Sent telepathically

Yes, absolutely. If something's not correct on our end, we'll fix it. Bring it in.

[Arin@APR]

Hey guys, I went back and updated our page.

I have 93 and 100 octane dyno graphs, both wheel and crank, and the gain over stock.

http://www.goapr.com/products/turbo_...si_vl_k04.html

[dscline]

Hey guys, I went back and updated our page.

Awesome, thanks!

[K1_Builder]

Ok there are a couple posts talking about WHP, I will have to ask the question....are the dyno's wheel or crank horse power?

My graphs are wheel horse power on a Dyno Dynamics Dynamometer. None of my figures are crank. I also do not know the formulas to calculate estimated crank HP.

First off, sorry for derailing this thread. But to respond, I understand what you're saying, but one of the biggest frustrations I've had with this car since getting it is the lag. Living in the city and having to dart out in traffic on a daily basis has been frustrating. Start from a stop, I punch the pedal, and sit there for one second before anything happens while traffic is coming towards me. I know part of it is due to DBW, part of it is the auto tranny, and part of it is turbo lag. Each part may be a small moment, but they all add up, and I don't want to do anything to make matters worse. K04 is very tempting, but when I look at the graphs that show it having less power than stock below 2400 RPM, I get nervous. My past car was a NA V6 with a MT, so perhaps my expectations are just too high. Stg 2+ should help improve the situation, I'm just trying to quantify how K04 would compare. Without being able to "try before you buy", you tend to over-sweat the details. But it is reassuring that others don't notice any additional lag.

Saying the car is below stock at low RPMs is waaaaay off base. If anything, my biggest gains were down low in early gears, which I had noted when I initially installed the K04 on my car in my build thread. Mind you, I am on a 6spd. First and second gear was what made me fall back in love with my car again after I made the addition.

Now...I see that your driving habits require you to be quick off the line, but seriously...you will only spend a fraction of a second below 2400 RPMs. If you ever make it to FL, let me know man, I will take you for a spin. The difference in power throughout the entire RPM range, especially in first and second gear is MASSIVELY different. Maybe not so much on a dyno, but the difference between driving it and looking at these charts is why I am so happy with where I am at.

[dscline]

Saying the car is below stock at low RPMs is waaaaay off base...

Well, that may just be the result of having to rely on the charts. But that is what the charts suggest. You can see it in Arin's updated chart above. Below 2400 rpm, the K04 plots drop below the stock (dotted) plots. But it is reassuring to know that you and others don't notice it in the real world.

[Highlander1010]

Well, that may just be the result of having to rely on the charts. But that is what the charts suggest. You can see it in Arin's updated chart above. Below 2400 rpm, the K04 plots drop below the stock (dotted) plots. But it is reassuring to know that you and others don't notice it in the real world.

Trust me. In a Tip too it is not noticed at all. I'm going V2 this afternoon. The file has been sent After that, I have to finally get around to installing my a few more little bits () and then see where my numbers come out on a dyno. I'm hoping to dyno locally next Friday afternoon. I'll post in here and my build thread as well once I do.

[K1_Builder]

Trust me. In a Tip too it is not noticed at all. I'm going V2 this afternoon. The file has been sent After that, I have to finally get around to installing my SPM Track Pipe + Downpipe and see where my numbers come out on a dyno.

Do you already have a dyno appointment set up? If so, do you know what brand dynamometer you will be measured on?

[Highlander1010]

Do you already have a dyno appointment set up? If so, do you know what brand dynamometer you will be measured on?

I spoke with a guy locally, but forgot to take down the info. As soon as I setup my appointment I'll let you know.

[englishbay]

Hey guys, I went back and updated our page.

Thanks Arin, its great to finally see the numbers

[k9lovr]

I spoke with a guy locally, but forgot to take down the info. As soon as I setup my appointment I'll let you know.

Looking forward to the info....

K1 as always great info and I am really appreciative as I am still trying to decide the route to more power..

[Razzel]

First & foremost: THANK YOU so much for getting this finally documented. Very much inclined to pull the trigger on this after being proved wrong about the gains!

2ndly, super keen to hear if there indeed would moar available for 6MT + Eurocode fmic owners?

better? Wrong hyperlink. Sorry. And APR, I am not trying to dis on you guys. I am totally happy.





So since I have the Eurocode FMIC and a 6spd, would that make a difference? Road trip to Alabama to be a guinea pig and hush up haters for a free tune?!?!

[gtg196w]

I don't buy the transmission loss thing. The APR graphs correct for transmission loss... so that has no bearing on the differences in your performance graphs when comparing transverse and longitudinal applications.

As far as the intercooling goes, are you just saying that the stock intercooler sucks?

[PaperishPlastic]

I don't buy the transmission loss thing. The APR graphs correct for transmission loss... so that has no bearing on the differences in your performance graphs when comparing transverse and longitudinal applications.

As far as the intercooling goes, are you just saying that the stock intercooler sucks?

Don't quote me on this, but I don't think APR corrects for the transmission when they show WHP numbers. Also yes the stock intercooler sucks. You should know you live in Florida.

[ultra]

good job K1, I wish I could have your back with another dyno from back when I had the k04 and v2
but all I have is the butt dyno. Basically I am not surpized at your dyno results. It was a signifigant difference
to me right away when going to v2

[NoR32]

Need to read this I do

[Wah]

Looking forward to see videos of pulls with a Stage II.

[K1_Builder]

Looking forward to see videos of pulls with a Stage II.

Stage 2 or V2? I have some dashcam footage of V2 pulls here:

0-120


Rolling - 120

[Wah]

Thanks for sharing K1. With the K04 V2 kit, your boost holds strong to red-line and is very consistent in all gears. :thumbsup: Boost almost never goes below 20 psi but you never go over 25 (26).

Stage 2 or V2?

I was actually more interested in pulls from a Stage II vs K04 V1 or V2. Someone mentioned that in the coming weeks they will be making a video of that. Thought it was you, but I guess not.

[A4 Centaur]

T = 5252 x HP
rpm

Around 277 Lb. Ft.? at the wheels on a known tough dyno.

[K1_Builder]

Thanks for sharing K1. With the K04 V2 kit, your boost holds strong to red-line and is very consistent in all gears. :thumbsup: Boost almost never goes below 20 psi but you never go over 25 (26).



I was actually more interested in pulls from a Stage II vs K04 V1 or V2. Someone mentioned that in the coming weeks they will be making a video of that. Thought it was you, but I guess not.

It was me. I am still trying to pull that together.

[Wah]

^^^Word.

[k9lovr]

K1 - so to be clear this was ran on a 93 file with regular 93 gas and nothing else to obtain 290whp?

[dame drizzo]

K1 - so to be clear this was ran on a 93 file with regular 93 gas and nothing else to obtain 290whp?

x2.. what other mods do you have? I can't even believe a 35 whp gain from v1 to v2, don't understand why it wasn't done in the first place? I would've went k04 had i know v2 tune would provide so much extra power, without water/meth, and then another 30 whp gain from 93oct to 100 oct. Good job APR