Black Forest Industries (BFI) Sucks.

[ibmiked]

Well, this is the second time I'm having a problem doing anything aftermarket with my 2013 S4. Apparently there are a few things just 'slightly' different with the 2013 that make certain things incompatible with the 2012.

After doing exhaustive research here I decided to go with spacers for my 18" factory wheels. I ordered 15mm for the front and 20mm for the rear. I ordered 20 pieces of the 50mm ball lug bolts all from Black Forest Industries (BFI). I ordered 50mm all around because they were listed on BFI's website as being compatible for the car both front and rear and I didn't want to use different length lugs on the front if I didn't have to . My worry was that if I ever got the car serviced and the tech accidentally got the lugs from the front on the back.

So everything arrives and I decide to wash the car and clean it before raising it up and doing the 'install'. Let me interject here that I made my living many moons ago as a mechanic and restored several cars in the intervening years. I have a scissor lift in my garage and a full suite of Snap-On tools. This ain't my first rodeo. The wheels come off and because I'm OCD I wash the insides while I can. Next I install the rear and front spacers, all with no problem.

Once the car is back down on the ground I torqued the wheels to 90 ft/lbs with a 3/4" hand torque wrench. Next I start the car to take it for a spin before re-torquing everything (the way I was taught 20 years ago and still do it). Here's where it gets ugly. The car won't move. Not in forward and not in reverse. I figure, 'What the hell?' and decide to turn off and re-start the car to make sure it isn't an ebrake problem. Nope, not it. So before doing anything else I call BFI.

I get a very nice (everyone has been nice so far) guy on the phone named 'Pete'. I explain that I am concerned that my 50mm front lugs may be too long and interfering with the front hub. Pete assures me that this is just not possible. He tells me that they have sold "dozens and dozens" of this set-up to S4 owners with never a complaint. I suggest that he explain to me why my wheels won't move and he tells me just to be safe I should take the spacers out and see if that fixes the problem.

Well, I can tell you that the front lugs did not want to come out. No way. Apparently, they were too long and stuck out through the rear of the hub and were bashing against the hub when I tried to drive the car (which was about 4 inches in each direction). The threads on the end of the lug bolts were shot. Now if you've ever worked on a front end before you know that you can't do anything with the wheel still on, so I slowly and carefully backed the lugs out, although I knew based on the super-human effort required that I was hurting the hub. Sure enough, a pile of metal shavings came out and the ends of the lug bolts were mangled.

I called Pete back and explained that I was basically screwed. He said that I should clean and re-tap the holes in the hub and I should be fine. Because I was a mechanic I happened to have the proper tap and thread chaser, so I went back and did just that, but only 4 holes on each front hub are even close to being acceptable and one on each side is totally wasted. I told Pete that I was going to need the front hubs replaced because I did not feel safe driving a 300+ hp all wheel drive sports sedan anywhere near it's capabilities with the hubs in the shape they are in.

All I'm getting now is silence. I have pictures of everything and I even took a screenshot of their website where they say that you can use their 50mm lugs with 15mm spacers. Shortly after I reported the problem they actually changed their website. I'm sure they did this to prevent it from happening to anyone else, but based on their silence I'm guessing that their next step is to say that they never recommended that set-up.

I'm posting here as a warning, and in the hopes that they wake the hell up and realize that my 700 mile car was damaged by their product and that nothing less than returning it to factory correct with new hubs is going to make me happy or even just be 'the right thing' to do. Sorry to rant, but I believe it's not how a company acts when everything is hunky-dory that counts, it's how they act when they screw up that shows who they are.

-Mike

[skeelo]

What an ordeal, sorry to hear... BFI spacers were on my list of things.

Subscribed to see how they respond.

[S4charged]

Damn man, I was also considering BFI spacers as my next "mod"

I guess i'll wait and see how this plays out, good luck.

[Rodmar]

Sue and everyone should call them up. That is rediculous, and they should take care of it especially after they reccomended it and even reccomended it again without hesitation after you made sure. I say take the information you got and sue them for new hubs.

[Pitbull's S4]

i have BFI Spacers on My 2012 S4, its funny u say that. cause i took mine in for service and a tire rotation and the dealer said that the spacers ruined my hubs. im not a mechanic but its pricy, 1200 each hub. the end of my front wheel lock was stripped about 5 threads on the end. but mine are only 5mm in front and BFI said i could just use my stock lugs. i swapped out the lug with a spare lug and don't think i have any other issues.

[ibmiked]

Here's what happened on the lug holes that could not be cleaned with a tap. These are the factory lugs getting chewed up by the hub:



I can tell you that it's not a lot of fun driving around with 4 lug bolts on each front wheel.

-Mike

[phillips2024]

Sorry to hear that man. Currently I run BFI bolts/11.5mm ECS spacers in front and BFI/15mm BFI in back. Overall No problems here. Had a few chewed oem bolts when i had BFI 5mm in front

[A4Quattro > all]

That's absolutely terrible. If you have documents, you really should go ahead with legal action.

[Kay87]

OK, after hearing this I'm doing to do my lug conversion for sure. btw good luck.

[SteveYem]

Sorry to hear of your misfortune Mike. Does anyone know off-hand the length of the stock bolts? Because it seems to me that the proper length of an aftermarket bolt should be Stock Length + Spacer Thickness. Would this not ensure that the amount of thread protruding into the hub is equivalent to stock?

I suppose the moral of the story is that the 15mm spacers required 45mm bolts, while the 20mm spacers were ok with 50mm bolts? I see your point about wanting to have the same bolts all the way around, it just seems that we're caught between insufficient thread engagement on the thicker rear spacers, or too much protrusion on the thinner front spacers (depending whether you try to standardize on the shorter or longer bolts all the way around).

[PitchS4]

If you were as good a mechanic as you say (think) you are, you would have tried to rotate the wheels by hand to ensure the new, longer bolts cleared the hub. I don't see how this is their fault.

Stock lugs are 28mm if you added 15 you should have gone with ~43mm. If you did as much research you said you did you would have realized that is spacers 101. Ultimately you are the one responsible for safely installing the proper length lugs.

Their website was right in that the 14x50mm bolts fit your vehicle...as would 14x10mm or 14x150mm since it is the width of the threads that make it fit. It is on you to get the proper length for the application.

Good luck with that legal action...

Also, unrelated but more spacers 101 to help others: You should torque the lugs with the tire off the ground when installing spacers in order not to stress the thin lip that goes into the wheel. Put the car in gear to do this on the fronts.

[ibmiked]

If you were as good a mechanic as you say (think) you are, you would have tried to rotate the wheels by hand to ensure the new, longer bolts cleared the hub. I don't see how this is their fault.

Stock lugs are 28mm if you added 15 you should have gone with ~43mm. If you did as much research you said you did you would have realized that is spacers 101. Ultimately you are the one responsible for safely installing the proper length lugs.

Their website was right in that the 14x50mm bolts fit your vehicle...as would 14x10mm or 14x150mm since it is the width of the threads that make it fit. It is on you to get the proper length for the application.

Good luck with that legal action...

Also, unrelated but more spacers 101 to help others: You should torque the lugs with the tire off the ground when installing spacers in order not to stress the thin lip that goes into the wheel. Put the car in gear to do this on the fronts.

Sorry, so you're saying that I should have doubted the manufacturers compatibility statements? With that logic one should measure a 245/40/18 tire to make sure that the printed dimensions are actually met, or that 20W oil actually has the proper viscosity before using it. I think you're point is valid but unrealistic. BFI is in the business of spacers. Even after I encountered a problem they still insisted that the fit they sold me was correct for my car.

Taking your logic one step further, BFI recommends (and only offers) 40mm and 50mm lugs so you would have gone with a 3mm SHORTER lug than factory fit (when using a spacer)? I thought it safer to grab MORE thread than LESS, especially since BFI told me that there was plenty of clearance inside the factory hub for any threads that protruded.

Just trying to figure out what you're saying.

-Mike

PS- What legal action? Did I miss something?

[PitchS4]

Front vs. rear, B8 vs. B8.5, 18 inch wheels vs. 19 inch...there were enough variables that you should have checked the clearance. It would have taken literally 30 seconds to take the car out of gear and rotate the wheel.

Don't trash a small business that develops custom products for our platforms because your are angry about your own negligence.

I run a 10mm spacer and a 35mm bolt. +-3mm is fine the rule of thumb is 6 full turns.

Edit: It is funny but reading your response, 245/40/18 tires do vary in actual size from brand to brand (as does 20W oil in viscosity). Again if you did your research you would find that people using spacers have less fender clearance with the OEM Dunlops vs the Contientials of the same 255/35/19 size. In this scenario it would again be up to the installer to verify final clearance.

[ibmiked]

After giving this a lot of further consideration both last night and this morning, I'm going to admit that PitchS4 is right. I made an incorrect assumption that when BFI told me that these products were tested and confirmed for my car that they had actually confirmed the fit. In hindsight, because they have a no return policy I should have pulled the hubs off my car and confirmed that there really was room back there for me to run 50mm lugs all the way around before placing the order.

I also spent some time last night off this forum and reading other, non-audi discussion boards about Black Forest. It seems that if I had done more research I would have discovered that there are apparently a lot of problems dealing with products from Black Forest Industries. Even on this thread there are posters who have had problems with BFI but this information wasn't anywhere to be found in my earlier searches of this board.

The moral of the story is that we should treat any aftermarket modification with extreme caution and realize that most of these companies are as PitchS4 stated; small businesses. In many cases they do not do extensive R&D. Whatever the changeover was between the 2013 hub from the 2012, BFI was obviously not aware of it. Although they told me that fit would not be an issue, I should have been suspicious and done my own test fitting.

Caveat Emptor.

-Mike

[madmadS4]

So I have the 15mm spacers and the 50mm lugs from BFI. I have had no issues at all. The only difference is that my car is a B8 and you're a B8.5.

but then their web site sells products for the B8:
http://store.blackforestindustries.com/b81.html

If I had the S4 refresh, I'd want a complete list of changes from the B8 before doing anything.

[PitchS4]

Sorry to jump all over you man. I am not necessarily a fanboy of BFI but I do appreciate that they developed a good product for our platform. They are the only company I know of that makes a 5mm and 10mm spacer for our cars with the proper camfer for stock wheels which make for vibration free use.

It wasn't their product that damaged your hub it was the improper bolts for your set-up. It wasn't their R+D, and their product didn't fail, it was the information on their website (which was for a B8 I don't even see B8.5 listed?). You are right in that it is difficult to consider all possible combinations and it was foolish of them make a blanket recommendation on bolt size if that was the case.

If there is any silver lining our wheels are hub centric, not bolt centric, so as long as you can get the proper torque on the bolts you should be fine, but I am not going to make a blanket statement about it ;) If you have the replace the hubs that does suck. Hopefully someone will learn from this and make sure they can rotate the wheels by hand when they install longer bolts before trying to drive.

Also for those of you with or considering 5mm spacers on stock lugs do yourself a favor and get the 32mm or 35mm bolts (ECS has both sizes). I doubt you can get 6 full turns with stock lugs. Just make sure you test wheel rotation before driving.

[Heresy]

After giving this a lot of further consideration both last night and this morning, I'm going to admit that PitchS4 is right. I made an incorrect assumption that when BFI told me that these products were tested and confirmed for my car that they had actually confirmed the fit. In hindsight, because they have a no return policy I should have pulled the hubs off my car and confirmed that there really was room back there for me to run 50mm lugs all the way around before placing the order.

I also spent some time last night off this forum and reading other, non-audi discussion boards about Black Forest. It seems that if I had done more research I would have discovered that there are apparently a lot of problems dealing with products from Black Forest Industries. Even on this thread there are posters who have had problems with BFI but this information wasn't anywhere to be found in my earlier searches of this board.

The moral of the story is that we should treat any aftermarket modification with extreme caution and realize that most of these companies are as PitchS4 stated; small businesses. In many cases they do not do extensive R&D. Whatever the changeover was between the 2013 hub from the 2012, BFI was obviously not aware of it. Although they told me that fit would not be an issue, I should have been suspicious and done my own test fitting.

Caveat Emptor.

-Mike

Mike, I commend you for this post. I read these forums a lot, and I don't ever recall anyone admitting they may have been wrong. Most of the time it turns into a pissing match. It takes a lot of guts to do that. You have my respect.

[Rodmar]

So your saying BFI was right??

[jran76]

Pretty sure he is saying BFI was wrong in some regard or at least they did not have the most up-to-date information, and also that he should have been more tedious when checking over the install.... In the end, it's a crappy lesson to learn. I see both sides.

[tboooe]

I had a similar experience with bolts and aftermarket wheels. Basically the wheel supplier recommended bolts that were about 2mm too long. Luckily I always hand tighten or very ligthly tighten bolts with my torque wrench when I am first installing anything so I was able to feel the resistance as the bolt hit the hub. Even with this approach I did mangle one of the bolts but it wasnt damaged enough to mess up up the hub threads too badly. I can no longer hand tighten that one position but it works.

I believe the lesson learned here is for any aftermarket part you need to really do your homework. Research, research again, ask questions...of course all of this is hindsight.

[ibmiked]

Thanks guys. Just so no one else has this problem, in reply to tboooe's post the lugs went in perfectly all the way and never bottomed out. It was when the hub tried to rotate that the protruding lugs came in contact with the inside of the hub and damaged the threads. Maybe BFI even test fit them on a 2013 but didn't bother to rotate the front tires in nuetral as PitchS4 suggested. Either way, they're not returning my emails or phone call so I guess we'll never really know.

Cheers,
-Mike

[FatalBert]

I have ECS 11.5mm spacers with 40mm lugs (~.5mm increase) and I was skeptical about that. 15mm spacers should have used 43mm lugs but you probably realize that by now. Not sure how litigation will work out in a case like this. Seems both parties are responsible, if they did indeed tell you it would work for your 2013 vehicle.

[Patrick Bateman]

Some good info here. Im not a fan of companies not returning calls/emails,and will put this thread back of my head,as i mentioned BFI a few weeks back to
another member in my area looking for spacers. As a business owner myself, i feel it is my duty to call back my customer and at least hear them out. So, not good for BFI. I wont be suggesting their products,or mentioning their name in the future,except maybe to let folks know how their communication skills are.

And on spacers... Had them on a few of my cars now...I guess ive always measured the stock bolts, and added to that,the addt'l length in MM the thickness of the spacer . I will say ive never spun the wheels manually
so ive learned something new here. Good luck with all of this OP.

PB.

[phillips2024]

ive also learned for the future

[SteveYem]

The general formula for a give wheel should be: Aftermarket Bolt Length = Stock Bolt Length + Spacer Thickness
Theoretically, the above formula yields identical thread protrusion as the stock bolt. If they don't make a bolt that is the exact length derived from the above equation, then we need to do some investigating and take some risk of either insufficient thread engagement, or too much protrusion into the hub.

[PitchS4]

ECS has a pretty wide range of bolt sizes that should get you within 1mm including 43mm bolts that would have been ideal for this applicable. Like I said before 6 full turns is the rule of thumb. Up to 3MM in either direction shouldn't be an issue.

FWIW I am running 35mm bolts all around with 5mm spacers up front and 10mm in the rear (on a 2010 with stock 19s).

[tboooe]

Thanks guys. Just so no one else has this problem, in reply to tboooe's post the lugs went in perfectly all the way and never bottomed out.
Cheers,
-Mike

thats weird that the bolts didnt bottom out!??? Maybe your model year car is different then my S5 but in all 5 bolt positions I would have hit the hub....odd indeed.

[SleeperCar]

i guess there is no BFI presence on this forum, but if i were them, i would jump on here and address this situation. Not responding to your calls is just a complete lack of good business practice. Regardless of fault, they should always address the situation and at LEAST let the customer know that there is nothing more they can do, but will update thier website to reflect caution regarding thier 50mm on B8.5s.

Have you tried calling from different numbers? if they have caller ID they will have no idea its you. Ive done that before with various customer service issues, it works everytime. :)

I am really sorry to hear about your problem though, and i wish you nothing but luck moving forward. I am glad that you are spreading the word though, guess who wont be buying thie products

<----- THIS GUY. Simply for thier lack of follow up...

Hey also FWIW, i too agree that it was very big of you to admit some fault. So many guys on here think they are the King of Audi enthusiasts and are never wrong.

[soulman978]

Front vs. rear, B8 vs. B8.5, 18 inch wheels vs. 19 inch...there were enough variables that you should have checked the clearance. It would have taken literally 30 seconds to take the car out of gear and rotate the wheel.

Don't trash a small business that develops custom products for our platforms because your are angry about your own negligence.

I run a 10mm spacer and a 35mm bolt. +-3mm is fine the rule of thumb is 6 full turns.

Edit: It is funny but reading your response, 245/40/18 tires do vary in actual size from brand to brand (as does 20W oil in viscosity). Again if you did your research you would find that people using spacers have less fender clearance with the OEM Dunlops vs the Contientials of the same 255/35/19 size. In this scenario it would again be up to the installer to verify final clearance.

Pardon my ignorance, but why would 18 vs 19 inch make a difference? They both use the same lugs from the factory do they not?

[BAHNSTORMER]

The general formula for a give wheel should be: Aftermarket Bolt Length = Stock Bolt Length + Spacer Thickness
Theoretically, the above formula yields identical thread protrusion as the stock bolt.

ECS has a pretty wide range of bolt sizes that should get you within 1mm including 43mm bolts that would have been ideal for this applicable. Like I said before 6 full turns is the rule of thumb. Up to 3MM in either direction shouldn't be an issue.

This has been the plan for my upcoming purchase. Stock bolt length is 27.5mm, so buying 45mm for 15mm front spacers and 20mm DRA on rear will use my existing bolts.

[Patrick Bateman]

Guys, this thread was just opened yesterday in the afternoon round dinner time. BFI has been alerted that this post exists...lets give them a bit to get back to the community on this instead of ruling them out . As of now, i cannot suggest them,or purchase their products.

PB.

[Joe@BlackForest]

Ok Guys, I guess I'm a little late to the party - but let me try to explain our side of things:


First of all, it is never our intention to be "unresponsive" and not help customers through situations with parts and their cars - we are always here Monday-Friday 9-6 and we do our best to answer all emails and phone calls/messages in a timely fashion.

There are a couple of things going on here that need to be addressed, and two different problems happened to Mike - the first is the bolt length being incorrect for his application, it is true that we had both the 40mm and 50mm as recommendations for bolt sizes for these spacers - and from all the information that we have now, there is an issue with the 2013+ cars that we have not seen before. I will spend some more time to see what has changed, but its obvious that a shorter bolt is better in this application. With the original B8 cars we found that there was sufficient hub clearance to run a longer bolt - the general rule is as others have said is to add the thickness of the spacer to the original length of the bolt +/- 2-3mm is acceptable. Another rule of thumb is that the minimum safe thread contact is equal to the diameter of the bolt, so in other words you want 14-15mm of thread contact (5-6 turns usually). We often try to explain that to customers but found that even though we would tell them that a 40mm is perfectly safe, they wanted extra thread contact (more is better right), so we added the caveat for the 50mm. This will now change from here out, and we will recomend 40s and bring in 42s for those who are concerned about having it exactly right.

So yes we recommended bolts that didn't fit, and that is our mistake - which is why we sent replacement bolts of the correct size at no cost to mike - but here is where our accounts diverge a little bit (keep in mind, Pete was handling this not me, so I am playing a bit of telephone here). The issue of the damage, while created initially by the 50mm bolt that had been bottomed to the hub and had its first threads rolled being removed and burring the threads of the lug hole, was made worse by the way Mike handled it after he knew he had an issue. Any time there is damage to the hub the hole must be chased with a tap - this could have been done when the 50s came out and the car would be fine. We have seen this before (a tech at a local dealer in a rush swapped lugs front to back and had a similar issue with a customers S5), if the threads are fixed then the hub will have no permanent damage and will be 100% useable. The problem was made far worse by the fact that Mike, after noticing damage, forced the stock bolts back through the lug holes, exacerbating the damage and by his account making it irreparable on 3-5 lug holes.

While I want to work with him and A.) get him the product that works for his application, and B.) get his car to functioning status as it was before he attempted the installation, our willingness to help stops short of replacing all the hubs that he damaged. We cannot take full responsibility for a situation that was, at least in part the responsibility of the installer for making a mistake after a problem arised.

That being said Mike had been nothing if not cordial and patient with Pete through this process (I just read the email string) and I would like to help you get your car back together and to a state that you feel a brand new car should be in - please email me at [email protected] and we can discuss options, and hopefully we can come to an agreement that we are both satisfied with.

[zamm3k]

Ok Guys, I guess I'm a little late to the party - but let me try to explain our side of things:


First of all, it is never our intention to be "unresponsive" and not help customers through situations with parts and their cars - we are always here Monday-Friday 9-6 and we do our best to answer all emails and phone calls/messages in a timely fashion.

There are a couple of things going on here that need to be addressed, and two different problems happened to Mike - the first is the bolt length being incorrect for his application, it is true that we had both the 40mm and 50mm as recommendations for bolt sizes for these spacers - and from all the information that we have now, there is an issue with the 2013+ cars that we have not seen before. I will spend some more time to see what has changed, but its obvious that a shorter bolt is better in this application. With the original B8 cars we found that there was sufficient hub clearance to run a longer bolt - the general rule is as others have said is to add the thickness of the spacer to the original length of the bolt +/- 2-3mm is acceptable. Another rule of thumb is that the minimum safe thread contact is equal to the diameter of the bolt, so in other words you want 14-15mm of thread contact (5-6 turns usually). We often try to explain that to customers but found that even though we would tell them that a 40mm is perfectly safe, they wanted extra thread contact (more is better right), so we added the caveat for the 50mm. This will now change from here out, and we will recomend 40s and bring in 42s for those who are concerned about having it exactly right.

So yes we recommended bolts that didn't fit, and that is our mistake - which is why we sent replacement bolts of the correct size at no cost to mike - but here is where our accounts diverge a little bit (keep in mind, Pete was handling this not me, so I am playing a bit of telephone here). The issue of the damage, while created initially by the 50mm bolt that had been bottomed to the hub and had its first threads rolled being removed and burring the threads of the lug hole, was made worse by the way Mike handled it after he knew he had an issue. Any time there is damage to the hub the hole must be chased with a tap - this could have been done when the 50s came out and the car would be fine. We have seen this before (a tech at a local dealer in a rush swapped lugs front to back and had a similar issue with a customers S5), if the threads are fixed then the hub will have no permanent damage and will be 100% useable. The problem was made far worse by the fact that Mike, after noticing damage, forced the stock bolts back through the lug holes, exacerbating the damage and by his account making it irreparable on 3-5 lug holes.

While I want to work with him and A.) get him the product that works for his application, and B.) get his car to functioning status as it was before he attempted the installation, our willingness to help stops short of replacing all the hubs that he damaged. We cannot take full responsibility for a situation that was, at least in part the responsibility of the installer for making a mistake after a problem arised.

That being said Mike had been nothing if not cordial and patient with Pete through this process (I just read the email string) and I would like to help you get your car back together and to a state that you feel a brand new car should be in - please email me at [email protected] and we can discuss options, and hopefully we can come to an agreement that we are both satisfied with.

And there you have it. Props for wanting to solve the problem. Knowing both sides of the story is important. I think it's helped the Mike has been patient, cordial and understanding, to say the least. I have no doubt you guys will solve this issue promptly and get his car up to 100% soon enough.

[Skyler@Achtuning]

The general formula for a give wheel should be: Aftermarket Bolt Length = Stock Bolt Length + Spacer Thickness
Theoretically, the above formula yields identical thread protrusion as the stock bolt. If they don't make a bolt that is the exact length derived from the above equation, then we need to do some investigating and take some risk of either insufficient thread engagement, or too much protrusion into the hub.

Typically +/- 2mm from the calculated optimal is ok. 6 full turns of thread engagement is the other rule of thumb (on a 1.5 pitch bolt).

[SteveYem]

A stand-up response from BFI, to my comprehension.

Regarding proper thread engagement, I agree that good practice is to have one diameter's worth of thread length engagement, i.e. 14mm engagement for a 14mm diameter bolt. But for an M14x1.5 thread, which has 1.5mm engagement per every turn, you would need 9-1/3 turns to get to 14mm engagement, no?

Check my logic:
*Metric 1.5 thread pitch means 1.5 mm/thread, translating as 1.5mm axial movement of the bolt for every turn (because 1 thread = 1 turn)
*Taking the reciprocal of 1.5mm/thread gives you 0.667 threads/mm = 0.667 turns/mm
* #Turns Required = Desired Thread Engagement (mm) x Thread Pitch Reciprocal (turns/mm)
#Turns Required = 14mm x 0.667 turns/mm = 9.3 turns

By this logic, 6 turns would give you 9mm of engagement, which is insufficient per general good practice (industry standard).

[ibmiked]

Joe, I look forward to hearing your thoughts on how this can be resolved. Pete has my unanswered emails and phone number where I can be reached with any suggestions.

Thanks,
Mike

[Quix]

Mike, I commend you for this post. I read these forums a lot, and I don't ever recall anyone admitting they may have been wrong. Most of the time it turns into a pissing match. It takes a lot of guts to do that. You have my respect.

+1, I'm new to the Audi forums but can tell you that on the Porsche forums I have frequented I've never seen anyone admit to being even close to wrong. Great job. You'll sleep better.

[SleeperCar]

I am glad that you are spreading the word though, guess who wont be buying thie products

<----- THIS GUY. Simply for thier lack of follow up...

Great response from BFI, i guess i jumped the gun on this statement as i didnt even check the timeline from OP to now. OP, keep us posted, i hope this has a happy ending. :)

[PitchS4]

Pardon my ignorance, but why would 18 vs 19 inch make a difference? They both use the same lugs from the factory do they not?

I am not sure the stock 18s have the same cast thickness at the bolt as the 19s. We are talking about a few MM here.

[ibmiked]

Here is a follow up to this thread. I was working with Joe from BFI to come up with a compromise that we both could live with. I had thought that we had found one whereby BFI procurred two new S4 hubs and paid for one and I paid for the other (at BFI's cost).

For over 3 months I have sent emails and waited patiently for these hubs while driving on 4 lugs. I have heard a lot of excuses from Joe, but never received any hubs. Joe is welcome to chime in on this thread, but he can't deny that I have been respectful in all communications, even to the point of waiting precisely 30 days between each promise to deliver before contacting him by email for an update.

At this point all I can say is that I wouldn't buy anything from these people. I tried to be reasonable and work this out like an adult, but I'll be filing with the Better Business Bureau in the morning. Furthermore, I plan on updating this thread with future developments so that any potential future customers can see what happened with me and decide to patronize them at their own risk.

What a shame, I just wanted my brand new car right. What I got was amatuer hour.