Torque Converter Clutch Circuit Performance or Stuck Off

[msharifi]

Hi all,

I got a check engine light which I scanned and got 18032 - MIL Request Signal Active (Check TCM for errors too!)
P1624 - 008 - Implausible Signal.

I scan the transmission got the following error-
17125 - Torque Converter Clutch Circuit Performance or Stuck Off.
P0741 - 003 - Mechanical Failure

I clear both codes to see if it came back. It didn't come back right away but after an hour of driving code came back.

Car has about 124k miles and I have not changed the fulid/filter. Does this mean the torque converter is bad/going bad or something else?

Should I replace the fluid and filter to see if it will fix this issue?

thanks

[Scotty@Advanced]

Hi all,

I got a check engine light which I scanned and got 18032 - MIL Request Signal Active (Check TCM for errors too!)
P1624 - 008 - Implausible Signal.

I scan the transmission got the following error-
17125 - Torque Converter Clutch Circuit Performance or Stuck Off.
P0741 - 003 - Mechanical Failure

I clear both codes to see if it came back. It didn't come back right away but after an hour of driving code came back.

Car has about 124k miles and I have not changed the fulid/filter. Does this mean the torque converter is bad/going bad or something else?

Should I replace the fluid and filter to see if it will fix this issue?

thanks

You can a fluid/filter change but you need a torque converter.

AAM Street and Race converters

[walky_talky20]

Most likely the torque converter needs to be replaced. The seal fails internally which bleeds pressure off the lock-up clutch. This causes it to slip (instead of stay locked with 0 RPM of slip), which causes the code. This is a somewhat common failure for the tiptronic transmission.

[msharifi]

Most likely the torque converter needs to be replaced. The seal fails internally which bleeds pressure off the lock-up clutch. This causes it to slip (instead of stay locked with 0 RPM of slip), which causes the code. This is a somewhat common failure for the tiptronic transmission.

Thanks is there a how to on replacing the torque converter?

[evo_ski]

When the seals fail and it slips is it possible for the transmission to make a slight grinding or buzzing noise right at the moment of lockup and release? Or would that be something else? On mine in sport mode in 2nd it will make the buzzing noise if I step on the gas when it locks up and then makes the noise again if I let off. When it is not in sport or tiptronic it doesn't make that noise, or at least isn't as noticeable to me.

[Scotty@Advanced]

Thanks is there a how to on replacing the torque converter?

Remove transmission, replace converter, replace transmission.

When the seals fail and it slips is it possible for the transmission to make a slight grinding or buzzing noise right at the moment of lockup and release? Or would that be something else? On mine in sport mode in 2nd it will make the buzzing noise if I step on the gas when it locks up and then makes the noise again if I let off. When it is not in sport or tiptronic it doesn't make that noise, or at least isn't as noticeable to me.

The lockup clutch is only activated at light throttle and steady speeds. Stepping on the gas will cause the lockup clutch to disengage. But if your getting the code it's possible the lockup clutch plate has worn through to the metal backing making this noise.

[evo_ski]

Hmm, I don't mean to steal the thread, but perhaps this info might be helpful to the op too. My issue can be duplicated during very light throttle IE lightly stepping on the gas after having your foot off the gas completely to go from say 20 - 25 in second gear and can be heard again when taking your foot off the gas completely. Also, if I try to accelerate hard from a stop light it will make the same buzzing/grinding noise during shifts. I have no codes, but every once in a while I while get a harsh clunky gear change. Usually it is while going from 2nd to 3rd.

Does this sound like in your professional opinion a full rebuild situation or possibly just a failed TC? Thank you very much for your time and help!

[msharifi]

Remove transmission, replace converter, replace transmission.



The lockup clutch is only activated at light throttle and steady speeds. Stepping on the gas will cause the lockup clutch to disengage. But if your getting the code it's possible the lockup clutch plate has worn through to the metal backing making this noise.

Thanks for how to... how about torque specs for the bolts? same as remove and reinstall? LOL

[A62TURBO]

It's your car telling you it wishes it were a six speed.

[msharifi]

It's your car telling you it wishes it were a six speed.

why 6 speed?

[widgget]

why 6 speed?

because they are tiptronic haters.

check these guys out too. they are the ones that i am going with for my TIP built.
http://www.517trans.com/catalog/11a.php

[msharifi]

I dont know if its the torque converter as its holding on shifting to 3/4 gear like at 40 mph it would be at 2000 RPM its having hard time shifting or downshifting. Hopfully doing the fluid and filter this week.

[msharifi]

Remove transmission, replace converter, replace transmission.



The lockup clutch is only activated at light throttle and steady speeds. Stepping on the gas will cause the lockup clutch to disengage. But if your getting the code it's possible the lockup clutch plate has worn through to the metal backing making this noise.

This is what is happening so new torque converter? I did change the filter and fluid yesterday and same issue but much smoother shifts.

[msharifi]

So I need to replace the torque converter?

[Charles.waite]

Yea if a fluid change didn't do anything it's the TC unfortunately.

[rollerton]

FWIW you can do research into failures from this problem- and there aren't many. I'm not telling you to ignore it, ...but...BMW and Porsche used the same TC in a couple cars and had the same problem and even in their ranks it scared people enough to fork over the $$ to get fixed, without showing a record of failure.
TC lockup occurs at cruising speed, maybe 45mph+ and light or consistent throttle. It's constantly locking and unlocking. From what I found (when my old S4 had it) is depending on your driving habits (or luck) you go could 10k to infinity miles without it actually causing you a noticeable problem. I know of one car with 95k on a failing torque converter....anyway you roll the dice.

Knowing what I know now, ...if it was my car I would't bother fixing it if it drove OK. I'd wait for it to fail and swap to 6 speed- and it would probably never fail.

[msharifi]

FWIW you can do research into failures from this problem- and there aren't many. I'm not telling you to ignore it, ...but...BMW and Porsche used the same TC in a couple cars and had the same problem and even in their ranks it scared people enough to fork over the $$ to get fixed, without showing a record of failure.
TC lockup occurs at cruising speed, maybe 45mph+ and light or consistent throttle. It's constantly locking and unlocking. From what I found (when my old S4 had it) is depending on your driving habits (or luck) you go could 10k to infinity miles without it actually causing you a noticeable problem. I know of one car with 95k on a failing torque converter....anyway you roll the dice.

Knowing what I know now, ...if it was my car I would't bother fixing it if it drove OK. I'd wait for it to fail and swap to 6 speed- and it would probably never fail.

Thanks for the info I hate the annoying check engine light.. After adding another qt of fluid the car was smoother and test drive with no issue. This morning while slowing down to make a right turn the check engine light came on and I checked it got the code as " Torque Converter Clutch: Stuck OFF / No Power being transferred" I didn't see RPM go high I was in 3rd gear maybe. Would the vavle body have anything to do with this? I would like to fix the problem but I rather spend the money on the right part.

[rollerton]

Very very very remote chance the problem is in the valve body. I've heard about someone saying a replacement valve body or 1 or 2 solenoids within had fixed it. But everyone generally agrees it's really unlikely. Swapping the valave body is something you can do in a saturday afternoon, and if you got one for almost nothing I guess it couldn't hurt, but don't get your hopes up.

[Charles.waite]

Yea from waht I've read, the Torque Converter is the most likely point of failure. THe Valve body controls the shifting, not the lockup. My car as REALLY sluggish downshifting, but honestly I'm not sure if its from the valve body being messed up or if its the torque converter being too slow on uncoupling the gears before the downshifts happen. I get a noticeable shudder on the 2-1 downshift when I'm coming to a stop and the idle quality in gear is abysmal, which indicated the torque converter is dragging a bit. If I pop the car into N or P you can barely tell the engine is running, in D or R the car is constantly shuddering.

Also as a side effect, the braking feel between D and N is totally different. Not sure if its normal for our tiptronics, but I think it might be somewhat related to the TC not operating properly.

[walky_talky20]

I hesitate to say this, but I wonder if there is an additive (I know...the horror) that would help this problem. Swell the seal, keep the pressure up, lock-up happy, etc. The Subaru guys have had great success with a particular additive to help common problems in their AWD slushboxes:
http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/...ad.php?t=87708

I'm not familiar with the actual failure mode of the Torque Converter seal that causes issues on the Tiptronics, so I don't know if it's that simple.

[Charles.waite]

I hesitate to say this, but I wonder if there is an additive (I know...the horror) that would help this problem. Swell the seal, keep the pressure up, lock-up happy, etc. The Subaru guys have had great success with a particular additive to help common problems in their AWD slushboxes:
http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/...ad.php?t=87708

I'm not familiar with the actual failure mode of the Torque Converter seal that causes issues on the Tiptronics, so I don't know if it's that simple.

Haha. Funny reading that, as that particular problem was one (of the many) things hated about my parents old Outback.

[msharifi]

*Update*

I got a quote to repair my tranny issue and here is the quote below...

priced out a overhaul which includes torque converter, factory ZF overhaul kit, feed pipes, new ZF pump body,factory ZF new F-clutch drum, filter, ZF lifetime synthetic fluid. Total price parts and labor $3200. The common failures on this trans( 5HP19a) are 1. the pump housings wear at the front bushing where the converter installs. 2. The feed pipes for the pump body fatigue and leak 3. The F-drum(clutch drum) crack which causes loss if gear(s) 4. The torque converter clutch linings wear and slip.

Based on the code and issue with gears not shifting or takes long time for the grear to shift from 3rd to 4th.

This is a indy. shop and the guy used to work for AMMCO but now has his own shop.

BTW the car drives fine but the check engine light is on with the hidden TC code which you will only see if you hook up VAG.

[rollerton]

Yep.
He's padding the bill- you don't need to know all that mumbo jumbo. Truth is it's just the seal in the TC not holding fluid and allowing lockup. I doubt the odd shifting honestly has much to do with the actual TC problem, since half of the TIP trans's do funny/ hard shifting when they have zero diagnosable issues. The lockup is really just happening at cruising speed. Clear the code and go out on a decent long flat road- click it over into manual/5th at about steady 45mph and hit the gas- the CEL should trigger shortly.
On my old S4 I paid a kid who had a couple weeks off to pull the engine/trans and swap a 517trans upgraded TC in- I was in the whole thing a little over a grand.
For your shops price you could drive it til' it dies and swap the whole trans out with a new TC and keep driving- and aside from a 6spd swap that's what I'd do.
I HATED the CEL from it like most people, but in retrospect I'd live with it and save the cash.

[Charles.waite]

Paying $3200 to do all that work to the tranny is stupid when you can just ignore the issue. Especially when there aren't any driveability issues.

Sounds like all that work is mostly unnecessary. Yea it might be a good idea for the transmission to do that, but unless you're mr. moneybags, its not worth it. I would get a upgraded TC from 517 and slap her in and call it a day. The rest of that stuff is probably pointless aside from the fluid change which shouldn't run more than $1-200 INCLUDING fluid...

[msharifi]

Ordering the Torque converter and ZF fluid today I need some info from you guys :)

1. What is the transmission Code for B6 Tiptronic Quattro transmission? I need to give to the company to get the right torque converter.

2. Can anyone get me PDF version of Service manual for the transmission? I need the torque spec for the bolts and info how to remove some transsmisson parts.

Thank you so much

[Scotty@Advanced]

Ordering the Torque converter and ZF fluid today I need some info from you guys :)

1. What is the transmission Code for B6 Tiptronic Quattro transmission? I need to give to the company to get the right torque converter.

2. Can anyone get me PDF version of Service manual for the transmission? I need the torque spec for the bolts and info how to remove some transsmisson parts.

Thank you so much

What year B6, What engine? Youc an have one of these codes:

EFQ FAL EKD FAS FHH FEP GBF FEQ GBJ

[msharifi]

What year B6, What engine?

Left the important part sorry It 2003 1.8

[Scotty@Advanced]

Left the important part sorry It 2003 1.8

It's either an FEP or GBF.

[msharifi]

I think its GBF but I want to make sure its 100% correct before I order the TC.

[msharifi]

Do I need to change the torque convert seal?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NATIONAL-224...&forceRpt=true

If its aganist AudiZine to post Ebay link Im sorry :(

[B72011]

Is this guy's name Eric L by chance? If so I contacted him about my failing 6hp19A2 on my B7---with the exact same symptoms!
$3200 wow--for that kind of loot--maybe a 6mt swap is in order!

*Update*

I got a quote to repair my tranny issue and here is the quote below...

priced out a overhaul which includes torque converter, factory ZF overhaul kit, feed pipes, new ZF pump body,factory ZF new F-clutch drum, filter, ZF lifetime synthetic fluid. Total price parts and labor $3200. The common failures on this trans( 5HP19a) are 1. the pump housings wear at the front bushing where the converter installs. 2. The feed pipes for the pump body fatigue and leak 3. The F-drum(clutch drum) crack which causes loss if gear(s) 4. The torque converter clutch linings wear and slip.

Based on the code and issue with gears not shifting or takes long time for the grear to shift from 3rd to 4th.

This is a indy. shop and the guy used to work for AMMCO but now has his own shop.

BTW the car drives fine but the check engine light is on with the hidden TC code which you will only see if you hook up VAG.

[msharifi]

No this was in Orange County.

[widgget]

Do I need to change the torque convert seal?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NATIONAL-224...&forceRpt=true

If its aganist AudiZine to post Ebay link Im sorry :(

this seal is for a 2010 with the 6 speed tiptronic, not sure if it's compatible with the early 2000's 5 speed tiptronic.

[Charles.waite]

it says its compatible with the 5HP-19, which is what the OP has. I would assume it'll work.

[msharifi]

I guess I can go to dealer and pay $32.

I don't know where the seal goes or if its the right one.

[widgget]

so it does, i didn't get to detailed with it, just saw it wasn't in the list.

yeah, not sure if that goes INSIDE the tq converter or if it's a seal that goes up against it. if it's inside that might be more trouble then it's worth. i have yet to open my trans up and look around though so maybe someone else knows exactly where it goes, or if that is even the seal you need to correct the issue.

again, no personal experience but i've read that the ZF transmissions aren't to bad to work on, just take your time, use the correct TQ specs for the bolts, follow the fluid replacement to the letter, AND KEEP EVERYTHING CLEAN.

[msharifi]

Next week I'm going to work on it but I need to find torque spec for the transmission. Do you happen to have that info in PDF?

[rollerton]

I'm not 100% positive but I think the TC has to be disassembled -- cut apart! -- to replace the seal that fails. Buying the seal won't do you any good without $500k in equipment to take it apart and rebuild it, weld it back together, balance etc..

[widgget]

I'm not 100% positive but I think the TC has to be disassembled -- cut apart! -- to replace the seal that fails. Buying teh seal won't do you any good without $500k in equipment to take it apart and rebuild it, weld it back together, balance etc..

that is kind of what i was thinking, thought they were sealed units.

and no, i do not have the tq specs myself.

[msharifi]

Oh I understand now if I'm replacing the TC with new one no need for the seals