rubbing/whirring noise, tire cupping and wheel balance questions

**achilleas101** · 08-02-2012 09:26 AM

ok, so recently i've had lots of stuff done to my car. i had a really annoying vibration at high speeds that i thought was just bad tires. i got new front upper and lower CAs, along with new shocks installed (not because of the vibrations, but because my CA bushings were shot, lots of play and all around wear after 96k miles). But that didn't resolve much with the vibrations (didn't expect it to). i went to a local mechanic to get the wheels balalnced, and he pointed out that my left front tire was cupping (i believe that's the term he used). Basically, he had me run my hand over the tread in one direction, then the other, to notice that the tread felt smooth going one way, but a little spikey the other. i couldn't see anything visually, could only tell by feel. So after the balance, it ran a good bit smoother. But turned out that i also discovered my left inner CV joint was torn. So i replaced the axle with a Raxle.

Now, things are significantly smoother, but there is a little bit of roughness. The thing i'm curious about though is the rubbing, kind of whirring noise that i'm noticing now (it's like a whir - whir - whir - whir). start to notice it at like 25mph, and gets more pronounced until like 70mph where it gets drowned out by road noise. Plus, it is rhythmic to the speed, and it gets faster and faster until it's almost continuous at high speed. it sounds like tire noise, like something rubbing at a constant point. it's RPM independent (i'll put the clutch in and coast and it still makes the sound), it doesn't change when i turn, just changes with the speed (consistently).

So here's what i'm wondering. i noticed the noise after the axle install, but it may have been there right after the wheel balance (they were close to each other, and i didn't drive it much at any real speed after the balance, so i can't remember if i noticed it then). Could it be the cupping tire (it's coming from the front left which is the tire in question), and that i didn't notice a noise before while the wheels were out of balance, but now that they ARE balanced, the rubber is hitting differently, thus making the noise?

from what i've read about wheel bearing problems, if it were that, it would make more noise while turning. is that accurate? i guess i can move the tire around and see if i still hear it, but this just occurred to me as i was typing, so figured i'd post and ask anyway. :)

edit to add: i have no idea what my toe was before the CA job, but i had an alignment done after the CAs, and the report had -.83 degrees on both sides. Now, was that because of the tie rods installation or was it like that before? i dunno. but the cupping i'm guessing happened due to the off balance wheel... oh and the tires are about 1.5 yrs old with 15k miles on them. Conti DWS

**old guy** · 08-02-2012 09:36 AM

Rotate the tires around. If your tread isn't directional you can reverse the rotation. Sure sounds like a tire noise as a result of the cupping.

**achilleas101** · 08-02-2012 09:43 AM

Originally Posted by old guy

Rotate the tires around. If your tread isn't directional you can reverse the rotation. Sure sounds like a tire noise as a result of the cupping.

i sure hope that's what it is, and that i didn't do something while replacing my axle, like mess up the outer CV joint, or damage the wheel bearing when i struggled to put it into the hub...

**old guy** · 08-02-2012 09:46 AM

Originally Posted by achilleas101

i sure hope that's what it is, and that i didn't do something while replacing my axle, like mess up the outer CV joint, or damage the wheel bearing when i struggled to put it into the hub...

I doubt it. I learned this the hard way. Six year old thread but probably pertinent to your issue: Clicky click do any of these symptoms sound familiar :-)

**CyberPMG** · 08-02-2012 09:49 AM

While working on rotating the tires, you can do a quick and easy check for bad wheel bearings. With the wheel up off the ground (and bolts on tight), try to move the wheel back and forth (left to right). If there's movement, the bearing needs replacement.

**achilleas101** · 08-02-2012 09:55 AM

Originally Posted by old guy

I doubt it. I learned this the hard way. Six year old thread but probably pertinent to your issue: Clicky click do any of these symptoms sound familiar :-)

yeah, sounds familiar. interesting thing about the road force balance- the guy at the shop was telling me that he may need to do it if the balance machine says it needs it, but the roundness checked out and the machine said it didn't need it. but you're probably right.

Originally Posted by CyberPMG

While working on rotating the tires, you can do a quick and easy check for bad wheel bearings. With the wheel up off the ground (and bolts on tight), try to move the wheel back and forth (left to right). If there's movement, the bearing needs replacement.

forgot to mention, there was no play in any direction.

**achilleas101** · 08-02-2012 02:59 PM

ok well, the tires are it. doing a little more research, what i have is actually called "feathered" edges or feathering. the outer rim is where the tires have abnormal wear (front left was the worst ... this image illustrates what they're like)

).

Rotating them to the opposite ends of the car (FL -> BR, FR -> BL and vice versa) the sound went away. i never had this issue with my other contis and i never rotated those (the old conti extreme contacts, predecessors to the DWS line) for the 30k miles they would last. i guess the bad balancing really hurt these guys, or these new DWS versions are more prone to feathering.

In any case, it's rush hour right now so i'm not going to find a hwy to go 70mph on and test out the full feel, but on the backroads i was able to get up to 45 (which had a very loud and noticeable sound before), and i didn't hear the same sound. Very faintly, but nowhere NEAR what it was. I can def live with that. hopefully the vibrations are gone too, but i'm not too optimistic. :-)

**Telsheds** · 01-06-2013 02:47 PM

Can I ask did rotating the wheels sort this problem or did it reoccur? I've just bought an Audi and am experiencing same noise problem, garage said wasn't bearings and rotated the wheels but this hasn't helped!

**old guy** · 01-06-2013 02:57 PM

Originally Posted by Telsheds

Can I ask did rotating the wheels sort this problem or did it reoccur? I've just bought an Audi and am experiencing same noise problem, garage said wasn't bearings and rotated the wheels but this hasn't helped!

Greetings Terry!
Not getting any love on The A3 forum? Are you running directional tread tires? Do you know how the shop rotated the tires? Front to back or cross rotation? Does the noise change if you swerve lightly left to right?

**Telsheds** · 01-06-2013 03:04 PM

Originally Posted by old guy

Greetings Terry!
Not getting any love on The A3 forum? Are you running directional tread tires? Do you know how the shop rotated the tires? Front to back or cross rotation? Does the noise change if you swerve lightly left to right?

Hi thank you for reply, no I'm not getting a lot of answers so far lol! Unortunately I have literally just bought the car today, when I first test drove it I heard the noise, mentioned it to dealer to put right. I don't know how the wheels have been rotated, but I will enquire tomorrow. Any other ideas what it could be if not the tyres? Thank you in anticipation

**old guy** · 01-06-2013 03:26 PM

A bad wheel bearing can cause a whirring or grinding noise that will vary as you load or unload the bearing. For example: A bad left front wheel bearing will get louder as you turn toward the right. Just a slight turn like a lane change will usually be enough to hear a change in the noise. Then when you change lanes in the other direction the load on the left side bearing decreases and the load on the right side bearing increases so the noise goes away.

If you do not hear a difference as you load/unload the bearings the noise could be coming from the tires. The best way to eliminate the tires as the source of the noise is to reverse the rotational direction of the tires. Unfortunately some tires have a directional tread so the rotation isn't supposed to be changed. All you can do is rotate front to back. If it is a tire issue this should move the noise from the front to the back. Unfortunately it can sometimes be difficult to determine exactly where the noise is coming from.

First take a look at your tires and determine if they have a rotational designation, an inner/outer designation or can be mounted in any direction. If the tires were rotated front to back you can always cross rotate the tires to see if it changes the noise you are experiencing regardless if the tire are directional or not. If this cures the noise issue at least you know it is tire related.

**Telsheds** · 01-06-2013 03:37 PM

Originally Posted by old guy

A bad wheel bearing can cause a whirring or grinding noise that will vary as you load or unload the bearing. For example: A bad left front wheel bearing will get louder as you turn toward the right. Just a slight turn like a lane change will usually be enough to hear a change in the noise. Then when you change lanes in the other direction the load on the left side bearing decreases and the load on the right side bearing increases so the noise goes away.

If you do not hear a difference as you load/unload the bearings the noise could be coming from the tires. The best way to eliminate the tires as the source of the noise is to reverse the rotational direction of the tires. Unfortunately some tires have a directional tread so the rotation isn't supposed to be changed. All you can do is rotate front to back. If it is a tire issue this should move the noise from the front to the back. Unfortunately it can sometimes be difficult to determine exactly where the noise is coming from.

First take a look at your tires and determine if they have a rotational designation, an inner/outer designation or can be mounted in any direction. If the tires were rotated front to back you can always cross rotate the tires to see if it changes the noise you are experiencing regardless if the tire are directional or not. If this cures the noise issue at least you know it is tire related.

I can rule out the bearing being a problem, having had there mechanic look and ive had a good look too with my brother in law! Changing lanes,turning left or right dosn't change the pitch of the noise! I shall as you suggest tho change the wheels from back to front, that is at least after I've spoken to the dealer/garage as to how they have rotated them! Watch this space. Thank you for your advice!

**old guy** · 01-06-2013 03:45 PM

Just to be clear: If tires are causing the problem a side to side rotation will make a bigger difference than a front to back rotation. If you have directional treads the dealer will not want to rotate side to side. They will only want to rotate front to back to keep the rotation correct. A temporary side to side rotation can be used as a diagnostic tool to help determine the problem.

Good luck!

**Telsheds** · 01-07-2013 02:33 AM

Originally Posted by old guy

Just to be clear: If tires are causing the problem a side to side rotation will make a bigger difference than a front to back rotation. If you have directional treads the dealer will not want to rotate side to side. They will only want to rotate front to back to keep the rotation correct. A temporary side to side rotation can be used as a diagnostic tool to help determine the problem.

Good luck!

Just an update on this, I have spoken with car dealer, the near side rear has been swapped with the near side front. So now as you say ill swap the front two tyres around temporarily and see if that swaps the orientation of the noise!

**achilleas101** · 01-07-2013 08:50 AM

Originally Posted by Telsheds

Just an update on this, I have spoken with car dealer, the near side rear has been swapped with the near side front. So now as you say ill swap the front two tyres around temporarily and see if that swaps the orientation of the noise!

yeah if it's a feathering problem, then moving the tires front to back and reverse would not solve it. But there's a simple test to check the tires themselves. just run your hand over the tread, going along the grain and against the grain. If along the grain (back of tire to front) it feels smooth, but against it feels jagged, that's a feathering problem right right.

My tires have started to feather again after 5000 miles. considering my alignment was redone just before i had rotated them, i know it's not that. so i'm just guessing these tires (Continental DWS) are prone to feathering. Really annoying since previous generations of this tire were fine. But it would also explain why so many people have had issue with vibrations with them. some bad batches.

**Telsheds** · 01-07-2013 09:11 AM

Originally Posted by achilleas101

yeah if it's a feathering problem, then moving the tires front to back and reverse would not solve it. But there's a simple test to check the tires themselves. just run your hand over the tread, going along the grain and against the grain. If along the grain (back of tire to front) it feels smooth, but against it feels jagged, that's a feathering problem right right.

My tires have started to feather again after 5000 miles. considering my alignment was redone just before i had rotated them, i know it's not that. so i'm just guessing these tires (Continental DWS) are prone to feathering. Really annoying since previous generations of this tire were fine. But it would also explain why so many people have had issue with vibrations with them. some bad batches.

Cheers guys, ill try this temporary fix this weekend, along with fitting a new fog light and installing my parrot hands free system. Will let you know of outcome :)

**Telsheds** · 01-12-2013 04:29 AM

Well I have replaced both front tyres for new Pirelli's but that intermittent drone noise is still there, quieter tho! Shal have to keep looking I guess!

**Telsheds** · 02-12-2013 10:50 AM

Just a conclusion to this story, I finally got round to taking my A3 to the garage, it turned out to be a wheel bearing after all, a bit annoying as when I first bought the car I was assured that it wasn't a bearing!!! Hey ho, hope to reclaim through warranty for my costs!