Car wont' start - Can't depress brake pedal - car stranded - /sad face

[widgget]

my wife called me this morning from work and said her car wont start. so i went down to take a look at it.

* When i turn the key to start the car all of the electronic fire up but the starter never turns (or clicks).
* The brake pedal is extremely stiff (that is what she said) and i can't depress it very far all at.
* Brake lights turn on when pressing the pedal (so that i believe rules out the switch).
* Tried jumping it for the hell of it, dind't make any difference.
* Nothing physically blocking the pedal.
* Brake fluid level looks to be fine.
* Opening the brake fluid res does not make the pedal any easier to press
* I can see slight movement of the brake fluid in the res when the pedal is pressed.
* No codes reported in VCDS
* Watching the Brake Pressure block, without applying any pressure to the pedal the block reports about 5mbar (or is it bar?), when i press the pedal hard it gets to about 45mbar but can get it to 75mbar if i really push hard. don't want to pop anything though so i didn't go past that.

so..... master cylinder? a valve somewhere? i need to get this car out of the lot it's in and would prefer not to tow it so what can i do ?

[underground6t9]

check the starter cable, it happened to me once cable got disconnected from battery thus car wouldn't crank.

[CrazyCal]

I would check the battery terminals. Even if it doesn't look like there's corrosion, it can be lurking underneath the terminals and hindering the connection.

Sent from the Wretched Hive of Scum and Villainy using tapatalk 2

[CyberPMG]

Considering how old our cars are getting, it could be the ignition switch is going bad (or has failed).

[widgget]

i will check all the connections under the hood.

i guess it could be the ignition switch, i've been having allot of immo issues with this car (takes a few tries to start sometimes) but this morning was different since normally it will start then die a few seconds afterward, now i don't even get the starter to turn.

The brake has me confused, normally it is not this hard to press, can't help but feel that it is somehow related.

[agart]

Once the car shuts off there is no longer a vacuum source. It won't take long for your brake pedal to go stiff after this point. That being said I would start at the starter, get the car running, and if the pedal is still stiff at that point, then take a look at the brakes.

[onceover]

The brake pedal will turn rock hard after depressing it a few times without the car running

[rollerton]

The "Click and Clack" answer would be: You're going to find it's either:
1. Ignition switch-- jiggle the key a little..
2. Starter motor or circuit/ connection involved in exciting the starter.
3. Park/ Neutral safety switch. Try starting it in either park or nuetral. Wiggle the shifter handle.

As stated, that hard brake pedal is normal with no vaccuum.

EDIT!!
If it's a manual, then there's always the switch on the clutch pedal. SO, goota make sure that's working. I'm fairly sure it's just like every other clutch switch in the world- If you suspect it's bad you could just disconnect the wires and jump them together with a paper clip or something.

[widgget]

1. Ignition switch-- jiggle the key a little.. (Did this along with moving the whole column around, fiddled around with this for quite some time).
2. Starter motor or circuit/ connection involved in exciting the starter. (going to dig into this later today once i can get back to look at it).
3. Park/ Neutral safety switch. Try starting it in either park or nuetral. Wiggle the shifter handle. (this is the 5spd, not the tiptronic. is there a switch i should check on the clutch pedal?)

[walky_talky20]

If all the electronics come on, and you just can't get the starter to kick, that's not a very big problem. Just get some blokes to give it a shove and pop the clutch.

Alternatively (if there are no blokes available for temporary hire), you could "jump the starter solenoid" with a piece of wire from the battery. There is a junction connector near the oil filter. Unplug, stuff wire in, make certain car is in Neutral with key ON, touch other side of wire to positive battery terminal, behold the MacGyver moment. Usually this solenoid jumping procedure is done right at the starter location, but it's a little hard to get at on a 1.8T because of the enormous turbo (lol) in the way.

*NOTE: Only do the above if you know what you are doing. Applying battery voltage to some random connector in the engine can end badly if you are merely pretending to know what you are doing.

Another alternative would be to bring a meter and figure out what is actually wrong with it. The starter circuit is extremely simple. The best place to test is at the starter relay location (aka: clutch relay or Park/Neutral Safety Relay). Unplug that relay and see if you get 12V+ signal from the START position of the key. See if you get ground signal from the clutch switch. See if you have continuity out through the starter solenoid. With all of those tests completed, you will know which part of the system is causing the no-start. If necessary, at that point you can actually install a jumper in between the ignition switch input and the solenoid output, bypassing the safety relay altogether. That would allow the car to start if the problem was the ground signal (clutch switch or anti-theft system issue), or a faulty relay. If the problem was no 12V+ from the ignition switch, you could also temporarily apply 12V+ directly from the fuse box to engage the starter.

*Again, make sure you know what you are doing with the various testing and such. And be very aware that if you leave it in gear and engage the starter manually, the car will start and proceed to run you over.

[CyberPMG]

To the last item, you need to make sure the master clutch pushrod can be engaged (when pedal is pressed) in order to allow the car to start. If the clutch can't be fully depressed, the motor will not turn over. I had this problem where the rod got bent and had to push down to the floor hard in order for the engine to turn over. I had to have the pushrod replaced to fix that.

[widgget]

all great info, i'll be going back to look at it later this afternoon after i run to the house and get my digital multimeter and will post my results.

if any more ideas come up post them and i'll add them to the list of things to check.

[Charles.waite]

If all the electronics come on, and you just can't get the starter to kick, that's not a very big problem. Just get some blokes to give it a shove and pop the clutch.

Alternatively (if there are no blokes available for temporary hire), you could "jump the starter solenoid" with a piece of wire from the battery. There is a junction connector near the oil filter. Unplug, stuff wire in, make certain car is in Neutral with key ON, touch other side of wire to positive battery terminal, behold the MacGyver moment. Usually this solenoid jumping procedure is done right at the starter location, but it's a little hard to get at on a 1.8T because of the enormous turbo (lol) in the way.

*NOTE: Only do the above if you know what you are doing. Applying battery voltage to some random connector in the engine can end badly if you are merely pretending to know what you are doing.

Another alternative would be to bring a meter and figure out what is actually wrong with it. The starter circuit is extremely simple. The best place to test is at the starter relay location (aka: clutch relay or Park/Neutral Safety Relay). Unplug that relay and see if you get 12V+ signal from the START position of the key. See if you get ground signal from the clutch switch. See if you have continuity out through the starter solenoid. With all of those tests completed, you will know which part of the system is causing the no-start. If necessary, at that point you can actually install a jumper in between the ignition switch input and the solenoid output, bypassing the safety relay altogether. That would allow the car to start if the problem was the ground signal (clutch switch or anti-theft system issue), or a faulty relay. If the problem was no 12V+ from the ignition switch, you could also temporarily apply 12V+ directly from the fuse box to engage the starter.

*Again, make sure you know what you are doing with the various testing and such. And be very aware that if you leave it in gear and engage the starter manually, the car will start and proceed to run you over.

I think "blokes" will be hard to come by in New Hampshire!

[widgget]

I think "blokes" will be hard to come by in New Hampshire!

True story!

not to mention it's on a nice flat dirt parking lot which is not the best place to be push starting a car.

[walky_talky20]

I think "blokes" will be hard to come by in New Hampshire!

I say this not because I'm Australian (although that would be awesome), but because my brother once had a low battery in his Celica at a highway rest area in upstate New York. We had all left for our cars, entered the highway, and wondered where he was. Turns out the Celica wouldn't crank (Blimey!), but luckily he got 3 genuine Australian blokes to help push the car down the parking lot. 5MT FTW.

[widgget]

Push started it and got the car home.

The switch on top of the clutch pedal that first releases has 0 and goes to 18v when the pedal is depressed, the second switch shows no current but change from a broken circuit and to a competed circuit when the pedal goes to the floor. This all sounds correct.

I don't seem to be getting any voltage to the positive connection on the relay strapped to the starter.

What is between the switches and the relay on the starter?

[kevin1970beetle]

check the starter cable, it happened to me once cable got disconnected from battery thus car wouldn't crank.

X2 it left me stranded at a gas station.

[widgget]

The large gauge line coming off the positive terminal of the battery?

Looks secure, will double check it now.

Not getting power to the bolt on in the center of the starter relay, is that correct?

[widgget]

I just lied, I do have 14v at the terminal on the solenoid that is attached to the starter direct from the battery.

What connection on the solenoid should I check when the key is in the START position for power?

[walky_talky20]

There is only 2 wires to the starter: the big one and the small one. Big one is battery voltage at all times. The little one should have battery voltage with key in the START position (and clutch pedal depressed).

I'm just going to leave this here:

[A4SoftWalker]

Good stuff glad u were able to get her started.
And the 3 guys to push start a tiny celica? Was it going up hill?
I used to push start my 1st car (an '84 jetta)like fred flinstone - get it started then pump it with one leg and POP GOES THE WEASEL...

Heck I was in Germany once and had a small, drunk Oompah band in a bus little larger than a Kombi bus (like soccer team size) that happened to know the driver push start a greyhound sized bus we were on tour in that got stuck with a bum starter. Good thing it was a stick shift.

Keep up the troubleshooting u are on the right path. Ckt diagram should be a big help.

[widgget]

That diagram should help. Just swapped some wheels around so I can get some rubber mounted tomorrow (just stock 16s for now, nothing cool, my vmr's still need a refurb) and since it's after midnight already I think I might call it quits for the night/morning.

Will check the smaller power connection tomorrow when I can get someone to turn the key for me.

Thanks for the assistance so far everyone.

[widgget]

So in this image you can see the connections on the relay (top right picture).
the large connection at 12 o'clock is the cable that is run direct from the battery.
is the small tab connector to the left of the large connection where i want to apply power in order to test the starter? i was going to jump from the large connection to the small one but want to verify first, the small tab connector looks to have something connected to it which is why i am assuming this is the one.

[rollerton]

YES. If you jump the (+) power from the battery cable to The connection at 9' oclock it WILL ENERGIZE THE STARTER!! It's the CRANK signal from the ignition switch So, for gods sake make sure it's in NEUTRAL!! The other is probably a (+) for some accessory/ power on certain models.

[walky_talky20]

And the 3 guys to push start a tiny celica? Was it going up hill?

The 3 guys weren't all necessary I'm sure. They were just nearby and all wanted to help. Indeed, you could bump start the Celica by yourself if needed. I tried it once just to make sure I could do it in a pinch.

So there. Now stop NIT PICKING MY STORIES, mmmkay?

[Charles.waite]

The 3 guys weren't all necessary I'm sure. They were just nearby and all wanted to help. Indeed, you could bump start the Celica by yourself if needed. I tried it once just to make sure I could do it in a pinch.

So there. Now stop NIT PICKING MY STORIES, mmmkay?

I though they were blokes!? Well that changes everything...

[walky_talky20]

Ah. I give up. No more story time.

[Sales@J-Fonz]

The brake pedal will turn rock hard after depressing it a few times without the car running

This.

[widgget]

ok, have voltage to the terminal at 9 o'clock, and jumping it from the battery connection doesn't do anything. Napa said they can have a refurb here on tuesday for $160 so i'll order that in the morning.

thanks to everyone or the assistance.

[widgget]

i know this is old but didn't want to leave a thread hanging unresolved.

new starter fixed it.

/end thread.

[sgudino]

I will look into this. My car is starting to act up. 2002 A4 1.8T B6. I intially got a code P0171 (lean in bank 1), so I checked the air intake line replaced the air filter and my next move it to:
1. Replace MAF
1. Replace the check valves
2. O2 sensor
and of course figure out how to get the car to start because I am getting a Press Clutch Pedal, even though I am about to push my foot through the firewall since I am pushing so damn hard.

Any ideas?

[AudiA4_20T]

I will look into this. My car is starting to act up. 2002 A4 1.8T B6. I intially got a code P0171 (lean in bank 1), so I checked the air intake line replaced the air filter and my next move it to:
1. Replace MAF
1. Replace the check valves
2. O2 sensor
and of course figure out how to get the car to start because I am getting a Press Clutch Pedal, even though I am about to push my foot through the firewall since I am pushing so damn hard.

Any ideas?

So your car is having the same issues? Won't turn over at all?

[Charles.waite]

I will look into this. My car is starting to act up. 2002 A4 1.8T B6. I intially got a code P0171 (lean in bank 1), so I checked the air intake line replaced the air filter and my next move it to:
1. Replace MAF
1. Replace the check valves
2. O2 sensor
and of course figure out how to get the car to start because I am getting a Press Clutch Pedal, even though I am about to push my foot through the firewall since I am pushing so damn hard.

Any ideas?

The lower clutch switch is probably faulty. Try grounding the pins and see if it will start.

[rollerton]

I will look into this. My car is starting to act up. 2002 A4 1.8T B6. I intially got a code P0171 (lean in bank 1), so I checked the air intake line replaced the air filter and my next move it to:
1. Replace MAF
1. Replace the check valves
2. O2 sensor
and of course figure out how to get the car to start because I am getting a Press Clutch Pedal, even though I am about to push my foot through the firewall since I am pushing so damn hard.

Any ideas?

Who said you should replace the check valves, 02 sensor or the MAF? Even with those parts physically missing the engine will start and run...so I don't see how replacing them diagnoses anything. Especially the 02 sensor.
Unplug the MAF completely..any change? I didn't think so. Jamming your foot HARDER on the pedal does nothing but damage parts- and it doesn't cause the car to start, it 'allows' the starter to turn the engine over.
You didn't even say if the engine is "cranking" when you turn the key. You need 3 things for one of these engines to start: Fuel, Spark, compression. Well...technically you need a couple more like voltage to actuate the starter and ECU logic to make the injectors squirt.
Sorry....But I don't undertstand the logic behind how 90% of the DIY people try and go about troubleshooting.

[sgudino]

Originally Posted by sgudino View Post
I will look into this. My car is starting to act up. 2002 A4 1.8T B6. I intially got a code P0171 (lean in bank 1), so I checked the air intake line replaced the air filter and my next move it to:
1. Replace MAF
1. Replace the check valves
2. O2 sensor
and of course figure out how to get the car to start because I am getting a Press Clutch Pedal, even though I am about to push my foot through the firewall since I am pushing so damn hard.

Any ideas?

Rollerton you are right. Let me start the story in the proper order.

Initially Line 1. (i see i had 2 line #1 so its the top line 1) CEL appeared, when I was driving and the car started to shake and wouldn't accelerate when I pushing the accelerator, (the CEL stood on and has not turned off).
Got home placed the OBD-II on it and the code P0171 appeared.

Read up on the forum of possible issues and decided on the least evasive solution.

Choose to clean the MAF with a MAF cleaner. Let the MAF dry out (reattached everything back).
When I started the car, the car shook violently and when it settled down, the ESP appeared on the dash and then disappeared about a minute.
I re-ran the OBD-II and now I have P0171, and 2 misfires.

This is where bottom line 1, comes into play. I read some more in the forum and the suggestion was check intake line.

I inspected the intake lines saw some intake check valves did not look as they should (looked calcified and crumbling) and I will replace them, even though I did a check and put some carb cleaner on them to see if I could cause the engine to stall to verify a leak, which the engine did not stall but for future peace of mind I am choosing to replace, now.
I replaced the air filter to rule that out and to check if there was anything clogging it in the air box, there was nothing major in it just vacuumed out the leaves and dirt, normal stuff that gets in there.

Here is where it gets tricky.

I tried to start the car again and the car would not turn over, the dash was reading, Press the Clutch Pedal to start Engine, or something of that nature, I was pressing the pedal down, so now I need to fix this issue before I can even start the car. Thanks to the forum I now have a method of what to do to by-pass the switch or set the position of the clutch switch which might have been loosened when it shook violently?
I still have not ruled out as you said voltage, since I am away from the car right now, I will check voltage.

So, here we are. Pedal issue, once fixed, I have the P0171 and misfires. I need to check the MAF (lean bank 1) and O2 sensor (misfires), to attempt to eliminate the misfires.

I guess the question is WWRD, What Would Rollerton Do?

[Charles.waite]

My best guess is you have an intake leak somewhere past the MAF or a large vacuum leak. Have you checked out the SJP? They love to pop causing all sorts of rough running.

As far as the clutch switch? Unplug the switch and connect the two pins on the harness with a paper clip. That should trick the computer into thinking the clutch is depressed and override the starter lockout. In a pinch it's a quick way to get past a faulty switch.