For those who run Racing Seats

[Austonwerner4]

I have a Recaro Sportster lined up, I found the rails already, but how or what are you using for harness bars? Ive seen that some people run them to the trunk but I want my back seats usable for other passengers...

Also any suggestions on Harnesses?

[shinamura]

ya, i've wanted to know this too, i want my rear seats to be usable still

[howardfootball]

Take the covers off of the B-pillars and there is a round piece of metal that is in the perfect position to weld a harness bar to. Hope this helps ya!

[Porkibear]

Schroth harnesses have an option where they latch right onto the rear seat buckle receptacles. If you need to use your rear seats u just unlatch and use your stock seatbelts.

[awd2ks4]

Just run the stock belt. Harnesses are a pain. I have a roll bar which my harnesses use, then I got the stock belt there to. Which I use all the time. If ur strapped in Properly with a harness u wont even be able to reach ur door to close it if its open. Great for track or autocross but a pain for a daily driver. Best thing to do is a good seat that has sides that actually sink u down an keep u in place.

[Meow]

Your best option is to build a bar in the trunk and fold the seats down during track use and run them like this (only cross the harness straps):






However, with this setup I HIGHLY suggest putting something like a loop or guide to keep the harness from moving side to side. It is key to have lateral support for the harnesses. A cheap and simple way too do this is to put a spacer between the harnesses on the bar and cross them as they go back to the bar. It is suggested that the webbing be crossed if the harnesses are mounted more than 18 inches appart.

Great read on installing harnesses: http://www.schrothracing.com/sdocs/2...structions.pdf

Use it at the track and roll them back up in the trunk for when you are street driving. There is no need for harnesses on the street. I ran a harness on my autox prepped civic for a long time, I rarely used it for street driving, so it was ok every now and then having the hassle of putting them on... and not being able to reach the door to shut the door with them was a pain lol. I ended up putting the stock belts in for street use and only ran the harnesses for racing. You do not need harnesses for street driving.


DO NOT RUN THEM TO BOTTOM OF THE BACKSEATS!!!! (Look on page 13 of the pinked PDF about installation) It is very dangerous to run that large of an angle with racing harnesses. they need to be a certain angle from horizontal to work. Below is linked what you should not do. This can cause serious back injuries if you ever are in an actual crash. Compressing the spine and possibly paralyzing you...


DO NOT DO THIS: http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u...Picture109.jpg

[domantas]

to me, I say no more to harness... One time I almost crashed because I was not able to turn my body back and see where I was going when car lost control. Pain in the ass...

[Das General]

I mounted mine to the stock rear seat belt anchors and the trunk. I found that it was well within the acceptable angle for installation.

[Meow]

I mounted mine to the stock rear seat belt anchors and the trunk. I found that it was well within the acceptable angle for installation.

Looks like a lot more than 20 degrees to me...

edit* looking at Takata Racings website they suggest between 20 and 55 degrees from horizontal which is what yours looks like. I do not see any crash test data listed by Takata so I don't know if this is safe or not.

Also your harness is expired or fake. The ones with the "Takata corporation" were either fake ones or older than 2006 and have since expired. The newer ones only say Takata.


Takata recently bought Shcroth though so they probably know what they are doing hahaha. - http://www.prnewswire.com/news-relea...136150393.html

[Number54]

The setups above seem dangerous to me. How about one of those devices that clamps down on your stock 3pt belt to keep it snug? Perhaps that plus the added support of the Sportster would be enough for you to stay put. I'd do that first (cheap), then come back to harnesses if its not enough.

^^^ Where's the document that says mounting shoulder straps 20-55 degrees down from horizontal is okay. That's exactly the opposite of safe.

[Meow]

The setups above seem dangerous to me. How about one of those devices that clamps down on your stock 3pt belt to keep it snug? Perhaps that plus the added support of the Sportster would be enough for you to stay put. I'd do that first (cheap), then come back to harnesses if its not enough.

^^^ Where's the document that says mounting shoulder straps 20-55 degrees down from horizontal is okay. That's exactly the opposite of safe.

I found that on takatas website, but I agree, that is not what I have read in testing to be safe. http://www.takataracingproducts.com/guide.html


Also are you talking about the CG locks? those use the stock belts with an extra lock to keep them from sliding and work awesome for a cheap solution in autox and such.

[BITRBO]

Your best option is to build a bar in the trunk and fold the seats down during track use and run them like this (only cross the harness straps):

[IMG][/IMG]
[IMG][/IMG]
[IMG][/IMG]


However, with this setup I HIGHLY suggest putting something like a loop or guide to keep the harness from moving side to side. It is key to have lateral support for the harnesses. A cheap and simple way too do this is to put a spacer between the harnesses on the bar and cross them as they go back to the bar. It is suggested that the webbing be crossed if the harnesses are mounted more than 18 inches appart.

Great read on installing harnesses: http://www.schrothracing.com/sdocs/2...structions.pdf

Use it at the track and roll them back up in the trunk for when you are street driving. There is no need for harnesses on the street. I ran a harness on my autox prepped civic for a long time, I rarely used it for street driving, so it was ok every now and then having the hassle of putting them on... and not being able to reach the door to shut the door with them was a pain lol. I ended up putting the stock belts in for street use and only ran the harnesses for racing. You do not need harnesses for street driving.


DO NOT RUN THEM TO BOTTOM OF THE BACKSEATS!!!! (Look on page 13 of the pinked PDF about installation) It is very dangerous to run that large of an angle with racing harnesses. they need to be a certain angle from horizontal to work. Below is linked what you should not do. This can cause serious back injuries if you ever are in an actual crash. Compressing the spine and possibly paralyzing you...


DO NOT DO THIS: http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u...Picture109.jpg

Yeah, you're never supposed to use racing harnesses/belts for the street. And you're right about the attachment angle... My favorite is when people bolt them to the floor behind the driver's seat!

[034Motorsport]

Yeah, you're never supposed to use racing harnesses/belts for the street. ]

This is correct, and good advice. Normal emergency crews are not prepared to cut you out of a 5 point harness on a street driven car, besides the other reasons. If your seat doesn't work safely with an OEM lapbelt, then I'd venture to say you aren't using an appropriate seat for a street driven car.

[howardfootball]

All of you completely missed the part of keeping the rear seats useable.

[Number54]

I found that on takatas website, but I agree, that is not what I have read in testing to be safe. http://www.takataracingproducts.com/guide.html


Also are you talking about the CG locks? those use the stock belts with an extra lock to keep them from sliding and work awesome for a cheap solution in autox and such.

Yes, CG locks. I've never used them, but have heard good things.

[Rdp616]

Racing seats are especially dangerous in a street car without a roll cage. If your car rolls, you're getting smashed along with the roof because you're strapped in soo tight. You body has no way to move in the event of a crash, or you being able to move your body yourself as domantas said.

[Austonwerner4]

All of you completely missed the part of keeping the rear seats useable.

I don't think there's any way but a custom made harness bar

[Jupiteraudi]

Factory belts! Harness + suit = not so good
My seats (trying to get rid of the red x)

[Meow]

All of you completely missed the part of keeping the rear seats useable.

dude, read my post about having the bar in the trunk and rolling the belts up for street use and folding the seats back. that would keep them useable. you shouldn't be running harnesses on the street anyway, so this will work perfect.

[shinamura]

major question of mine, what if i want bucket seats, and want to use the stock belt? will the bottom buckle be blocked by the sides of the bucket seat?

[Meow]

major question of mine, what if i want bucket seats, and want to use the stock belt? will the bottom buckle be blocked by the sides of the bucket seat?

depends on the type of seat, the way you remount the belt buckle and how you mount the new seat.

[shinamura]

so it is possible to remount the belt buckle then. okay that answered my question. basically, you are saying that a stock belt with a bucket seat is still doable?

[Porkibear]

so it is possible to remount the belt buckle then. okay that answered my question. basically, you are saying that a stock belt with a bucket seat is still doable?

My stock belts didn't fit quite well with Corbeau seats. I ended up just taking them out and using the harnesses. I hardly drive my car on the street, but if I drove it more on public roads, I'd probably stick with stock belts. I've driven with the harnesses a few times, and it's actually very restrictive. They're designed to keep you from moving around the seat.

[Meow]

so it is possible to remount the belt buckle then. okay that answered my question. basically, you are saying that a stock belt with a bucket seat is still doable?

yes, just be sure to properly mount that lower buckle, its possibly to lower and reposition the stock buckle to use the passways in bucket seats for belts. Its a pain and takes some fitting and measuring and adjusting and drilling, but its well worth it.

[Jupiteraudi]

so it is possible to remount the belt buckle then. okay that answered my question. basically, you are saying that a stock belt with a bucket seat is still doable?

Yup!

[034Motorsport]

You can see my stock belts peaking out.

[shinamura]

thanks for the pics and advice! definitely helped!

[ColoradoRS4]

I just put sparcos in my b5 s4 and they came with an subaru sti seat belt harness bar that is meant to bolt into the sti. It worked perfectly for my car. If you haven't bought or made anything yet take a look into the sti harness bar.

[rider384]

I've heard that 4-point harnesses are more dangerous than a three point (stock) or five point. Three point pulls your abdomen back as your chest goes forward to hold you in the seat. 4 point has nothing to support your groin or abdomen from slipping under and forward. Five point addresses this with a support for your groin. I don't know how true this is but it makes sense to me. There's also the issue of force distribution... five point has all the belts across your chest and abdomen to stop you. Four point has your shoulders + lap to stop your body with. When I had a 4-point in my Miata it was less surface area than the stock belt.

If I need a "harness" I'll move the seat back, lock the seat belt and go forward again.

[DynomiteTT]

I just put sparcos in my b5 s4 and they came with an subaru sti seat belt harness bar that is meant to bolt into the sti. It worked perfectly for my car. If you haven't bought or made anything yet take a look into the sti harness bar.

Post some pics.

[odhinnhrafn]

I've heard that 4-point harnesses are more dangerous than a three point (stock) or five point. Three point pulls your abdomen back as your chest goes forward to hold you in the seat. 4 point has nothing to support your groin or abdomen from slipping under and forward. Five point addresses this with a support for your groin. I don't know how true this is but it makes sense to me. There's also the issue of force distribution... five point has all the belts across your chest and abdomen to stop you. Four point has your shoulders + lap to stop your body with. When I had a 4-point in my Miata it was less surface area than the stock belt.

If I need a "harness" I'll move the seat back, lock the seat belt and go forward again.

I know, not cars, but similar issues... Our helicopters use 5-pt harnesses for the crew and pilots, but passengers only get 4-pt. The really cool thing about the crew's 5-pts is that they're attached to an inertia reel... Similar to the locking belts that cars have, but they can be manually locked, when you don't need the extension. I wonder if that's feasible for racing on a track...

[joe@vwvortex]

The more information I read about harnesses and racing seats - I would never use them without a half cage in the car. I ran harnesses on my TT with a bar for years with stock seats and Schroth ASM 4 pts.
Now I run Sparco Evo's with the same Schroths but with six point lap belt (they were made to be converted).

[BITRBO]

The more information I read about harnesses and racing seats - I would never use them without a half cage in the car. I ran harnesses on my TT with a bar for years with stock seats and Schroth ASM 4 pts.
Now I run Sparco Evo's with the same Schroths but with six point lap belt (they were made to be converted).

Care to elaborate?

I just ordered a set of custom Pole Positions, and I was thinking of getting a 4-way harness with the shoulder straps connected to either the passenger rear seat belt or a cross bar located in the trunk... I usually fold my seats down during track events anyway, so I will likely go with the latter option.

[joe@vwvortex]

Care to elaborate?

I just ordered a set of custom Pole Positions, and I was thinking of getting a 4-way harness with the shoulder straps connected to either the passenger rear seat belt or a cross bar located in the trunk... I usually fold my seats down during track events anyway, so I will likely go with the latter option.

There are a lot of arguments for and against using harnesses with fixed back racing seats in a car without a cage due to issues during rollover. To me - I just feel better with at least a half cage. In addition - it places the shoulder straps in the optimum position and leave very little strap between the bar and your shoulders. Harnesses with the correct seats are better than any of the snap in harnesses and stock seats and some gizmo's to hold the harnesses in place.

I also wouldn't use just 4 pt harnesses unless they have the ASM feature - anti-submarining that the Schroths offer.

[drdimick]

Normal emergency crews are not prepared to cut you out of a 5 point harness on a street driven car,

There is a lot of truth to this and it's a safety point that doesn't get the consideration it needs. A normal ambulance crew would be extremely limited on getting someone out if the release mechanism is damaged, an engine crew could get you out no problem but a lot of the time it's an ambulance arriving first.

[slowz32]

cages are safe until your not wearing a helmet, wreck, and you smash your head into the cage.

[Dr. Jekyll]

There is a lot of truth to this and it's a safety point that doesn't get the consideration it needs. A normal ambulance crew would be extremely limited on getting someone out if the release mechanism is damaged, an engine crew could get you out no problem but a lot of the time it's an ambulance arriving first.

I agree, 4 and 5 point harnesses suck for the street. But if an emergency crew doesn't have a seatbelt cutter to get you our a 4/5 point harness, something is seriously wrong.

[joe@vwvortex]

cages are safe until your not wearing a helmet, wreck, and you smash your head into the cage.

Full cage - yes. Half cage - not so much. My half cage is well behind my seat.