Small End play on connecting rods?

[A4natomical]

Maybe I missed it somewhere, but what pistons are you using? just oem?

[onceover]

Anyway, I recently had my Integrated Engineering Rods fitted with stock pistons, new rings and cylinders honed.

Looks like it, yep

[davkav]

Sorry I didnt reply over the weekend and thanks for all the replies and suggestions. The weekend was just hectic and I couldn't get near a computer.

You should be fine without rifle drilling I'd think. The natural sloshing that occurs should be enough to get oil up there. Were the pins a better fit before they were installed in the motor and broken in? Just curious if they always had play and the mechanic installed them anyway.

I agree with Clint. Call IE, they may be able to give some information that will help you figure out what happened and why.

Email was sent to Integrated Engineering on Friday so we will see what they say.

What I don't get is why the mechanic would instantly think it's the small end. I've never ever heard anyone think knock = small end.

It wasn't a case that he listened to the engine and immediately came to the conclusion that it was small end knock. :D

He was giving the engine a look over and when he dropped the sump and was inspecting the big ends and small ends he noticed the play.

Davkav, that scoring look to be caused by looks like oil starvation. Any possibility the crank bearings spun or weren't installed correctly?

By crank bearings I take it you mean big end bearings on the rods? They look to be all right. I will get detailed pictures up this evening.
Even at that though the rods aren't rifle drilled so the oil squirter's are the only thing lubricating the small ends.

Maybe I missed it somewhere, but what pistons are you using? just oem?

Yep OEM pistons so I don't know how this happened.


As it stands at the moment I am waiting on Integrated Engineering to get back to me and I am on the look out for some OEM pistons and wrist pins.
If the Integrated Engineering rods have to be replaced I think I will get them rifle drilled for the added safety of knowing they are force fed oil.

[davkav]

Just got an email back from Integrated Engineering.

They say that the rods are provided with pin holes that are tight. A machine shop is then required to hone the small end to match the wrist pin from my original pistons.

Has anyone that has 'drop-in' rods from IE had to have this done?

I have never heard of anyone on here having to do this nor does it say anything on the website or in the box that the connecting rods come in...

[screwball]

My small ends weren't honed. Wrist pins were matched to the cylinder and piston they came out of, they honed the block and back together it went w/ fresh consumables.

50K and 25lbs of boost on a 50 trim.

[davkav]

My small ends weren't honed. Wrist pins were matched to the cylinder and piston they came out of, they honed the block and back together it went w/ fresh consumables.

50K and 25lbs of boost on a 50 trim.

Which is exactly the way mine was put together, bar the 25psi :).



I rang the mechanic and he said they slid straight in, no honing required.

[davkav]

Right so I'm a bad place at the moment. I'm basically f**ked.

I don't know what to do with the car now.

I am on the lookout for second hand set of 19mm pistons but I am having no luck. Even at that the Integrated Engineering Rods will probably need to be re-bushed.
Ideally I need to get another wrist pin and check for wear on the IE rod.

In the mean time I have gotten in touch with Integrated Engineering.
They informed me that the rods are supplied with a slightly smaller hole than 19mm on the small end so that they have to be honed to the correct size of the wrist pin on the stock pistons.
Now this is the first time I have heard of this, it kind of makes sense BUT I have never read anything like that on here from the numerous build threads I have read. My mechanic also said they went into the rods smoothly and with no play.

I emailed them back saying that nowhere on there website or in the packaging that the rods come in does it state that this may need to be done (honing). Furthermore they advertise these as "drop-in" rods implying that no machine work is needed.

They have replied basically saying that it looks like either the rod bearings where contaminated with debris or the wrist pins where too small from wear to begin with and that may be why the pin slid in without any machining.

So my options at the moment are

1. Get a hold of a stock second hand engine, fit it and sell the car stock. Although this is an option it is not really realistic as I would be selling the car with an uprated fuel pump, an ECU with Revo software and all the other items I wouldn't be able to swap out.

2. Send my rods back to Integrated Engineering to be re-bushed for a fee and get my hands on new or second hand pistons and get the engine built again. This would cost about €400 in parts if I got a hold of second hand pistons or €600-700 if I was to buy new pistons. Then I have labour etc. on top of that. And then there is the time factor in getting them sent to the US and then sent back to me. I need my car back on the road ASAP.

3. Purchase a pre-built block. There are two newly built engines I know of that are going, one of which is a an AGU block with 1900 custom JE pistons, Pauter Rods, Lowered compression, all rotating parts balanced and new pumps and bearings. And then there is a 1.8 20vt AGU with JE Forged Pistons, Scat Rods,8:5/1 compression ratio, New bearings going in the UK that has 10,000 miles on it. Any of these options mean I could take the engine out myself assemble it and put it back in. This would cut down on any additional cost.

So thats where I am at at the moment. Decisions decisions. And to top it all off I havent a bean to my name at the moment.

[ricekikr]

If your gona buy pistons and rods, might as well get 20mm. This way if you decide to go stroker, you won't need to change rods. Most if not all stroker pistons are 20mm.

And if you use 20mm pistons, you MIGHT still be able to use your 19mm rods, just get it honed.

[diagnosticator]

Can't mix 19mm and 20mm parts, the rod bushings must fit the piston pins. BTW Dave, Honing the pin bushings to fit the pins, is standard procedure. If the pins where an easy slip fit without honing the bushings to size per pin, then the pins are worn, and are relatively a lot smaller than the new basic size.

[ricekikr]

Can't mix 19mm and 20mm parts, the rod bushings must fit the piston pins

Correct, but he's planning on buying new pistons and rods. So they can either be rods/pistons can be both 19mm or both 20mm.

And his current 19mm rods can't be reused with a 19mm wrist pin unless re-bushed, which I'm not sure if can be done or be cost-effective.

[davkav]

Can't mix 19mm and 20mm parts, the rod bushings must fit the piston pins. BTW Dave, Honing the pin bushings to fit the pins, is standard procedure. If the pins where an easy slip fit without honing the bushings to size per pin, then the pins are worn, and are relatively a lot smaller than the new basic size.

John, if the wrist pin was worn where it sits with the connecting rod would it not also be worn on the outer edges where the pin sits with the piston?

[daihashi]

damn, just caught up on this thread. Really sorry about your problem. I didn't mean to sound like doom and gloom earlier, I was really hoping that it ended up being something that wouldn't require doing the motor all over again :(.

[davkav]

Yeah I suppose its just one of those things. Shit happens. You didn't sound all doom and gloom man, your input was appreciated.

I am having the 1.9L delivered this week and I will hopefully collect my car from the mechanic so day this week. I just need to sort out a trailer to transport it.

All going well I should have the car up and running by Sunday week.

As for the IE rods I reckon I will send them back to get re-bushed and I will sell them on.

I should really start a build thread as my mods list just seems to get bigger and bigger.

[diagnosticator]

John, if the wrist pin was worn where it sits with the connecting rod would it not also be worn on the outer edges where the pin sits with the piston?

Not necessarily. The fact that the pins fit through the rod bushings without any honing to fit the pins is unusual especially since the rod pin bushings are supplied undersized, and normally require honing to fit the pins with the correct pin/bushing clearance. Undersized unhoned 20mm bushings may seem to fit the 19mm pins, but with excess clearance. I bet IE sent you 20mm rods, not the 19mm rods you ordered.

[M-Hood]

If your gona buy pistons and rods, might as well get 20mm. This way if you decide to go stroker, you won't need to change rods. Most if not all stroker pistons are 20mm.

And if you use 20mm pistons, you MIGHT still be able to use your 19mm rods, just get it honed.

All aftermarket pistons are 20mm, no one makes a 19mm aftermarket pistons.

[diagnosticator]

Dave, has the situation explaining why the piston pins are so loose in the rod bushing, but not loose fitting into the piston, and assembled without the normally required honing of IE rod bushings to fit the pins right?

[davkav]

Hey John,

Not yet. I have been focusing more on getting the car back on the road at the moment. Integrated Engineering are replying to my emails but they do not seem to think it is a fault with the parts.

When I got the car back on Monday I got the piston from the cylinder that the rod and wrist pin where removed from.

The wrist pin is as tight as it could be when offered up to the piston in my opinion. If the 19mm rods required honing before being fitted to my stock pistons and wrist pins I can not see how the pin could have fit through the small end on the connecting rod. It would have been impossible.

I was planning on making a video this evening and posting it up to see what you guys think and to forward on to Cassidy at Integrated Engineering to see what he thinks.

[auburnavant]

Integrated is wrong and should step up and fix it! The outside of the pin should have not fit into the rod with out honing to 19mm if they are indeed shipped out undersized requiring a hone, unless the wrong 20mm wrist pin rod requiring a hone was shipped. Kick up a stink and make them make things right.

[daihashi]

Are you sure the shop didn't really hone it, over do it, and just not fessing up to it? I'm sure you could send a rod back to IE for inspection and they can tell you if it had and hone/machine work to it.

[davkav]

Integrated is wrong and should step up and fix it! The outside of the pin should have not fit into the rod with out honing to 19mm if they are indeed shipped out undersized requiring a hone, unless the wrong 20mm wrist pin rod requiring a hone was shipped. Kick up a stink and make them make things right.

Well this is it as soon as I offered up the wrist pin to the piston I said to myself no effing way! The rods had to have been 20mm ones to begin with.

Are you sure the shop didn't really hone it, over do it, and just not fessing up to it? I'm sure you could send a rod back to IE for inspection and they can tell you if it had and hone/machine work to it.

I highly doubt it. The main VAG community over here in Ireland all use this guy for any of there work.

I am going to make a video this evening and send it to Cassidy and see what he thinks. If he reckons its worth sending the parts over to him for inspection I will.

[ricekikr]

The rods had to have been 20mm ones to begin with.

Sorry, but have to say this again. If the rods were 20mm, your mechanic shouldn't have installed them. The play would've been very noticeable. If they were definitely 20mm, I say your mechanic should be at fault. 1mm diff is huge.

The only way I see IE being at fault here is if there was a problem with the machining (ie. the small end was machined a smidge too big, enough to cause failure but not enough to be felt). But all 4 having the same problem, would've also meant the whole batch (1000+ rods?) should have the same problem and there would be a whole lot more people with the same type of failure.

[daihashi]

Sorry, but have to say this again. If the rods were 20mm, your mechanic shouldn't have installed them. The play would've been very noticeable. If they were definitely 20mm, I say your mechanic should be at fault. 1mm diff is huge.

I agree with this, even if they were 19mm but just poorly machined from IE.. once the guy put them in and saw that they were loose he should've notified you that it didn't look right. It is possible IE could've sent a bad product, but they would've corrected it if your mechanic would've notified you of the issue for you to in turn contact IE about his findings.

Not that it really matters at this point, I know you just want your car running correctly. Really sorry this all happened. I know what it's like to dump money into a motor and have it prematurely go south; happens to the best of us. :(

[S4NIK8]

Honing the pin bushings to fit the pins, is standard procedure. If the pins where an easy slip fit without honing the bushings to size per pin, then the pins are worn, and are relatively a lot smaller than the new basic size.

I haven't had a chance to measure clearances but I have a brand new set of IE rods (20mm) and new JE pistons/wrist pins and they fit together just fine without any honing done to the rod.

Edit* the wrist pin clearance I measured is 0.0004" or 0.010mm