Good idea to put trans into N when at lights?

[blackswan]

For those with DSG, do you put your car into Neutral for short term stops, eg at red stop lights? I read somewhere that to leave the car in gear with your foot on the brake while stationary can put undue pressure on the DSG clutchpacks.

[JohnEnglish]

What? No. It's fine to leave your car in drive with your foot on the brake.

[Vogz]

1. Leave it in gear, that's how it was designed to operate

2. DSG transmissions don't have clutch packs.

[skiracerblah]

1. Leave it in gear, that's how it was designed to operate

2. DSG transmissions don't have clutch packs.

Eh, i thought all dual clutch transmissions have clutch packs....

[blackswan]

1. Leave it in gear, that's how it was designed to operate

2. DSG transmissions don't have clutch packs.

Wrong.

From wikipedia:

"N"

N position of the floor-mounted shift lever means that the transmission is in "neutral". Similar to P above, both clutch packs and all gear-sets are fully disengaged, however the parking lock is disengaged. This position should be used when the motor vehicle is stationary for a period of time, such as at red traffic lights, or waiting in a queue of stationary traffic.[19] The DSG should not be held in any of the active gear modes while stationary using the footbrake for other than brief periods — due to the clutches being held on the bite point, as this can overheat the clutches and transmission fluid. This position also allows the engine to be restarted (in some cars needing the key to be partially disengaged) which cannot be done in any of the active modes.[19]

[ilspazzaneve]

Lol guys, on the DL501 (7-speed longitudinal S-tronic) each of the two shaft has a stack of alternating clutch plates and disks, sometimes called a multi-plate clutch, or a clutch pack. Wet or dry, it's still a pair of clutch packs. The DQ250 (6-speed transverse DSG on golfs and TTs) is similar. Only the lower-end DQ200 has single-plate clutches.

I think some of you are thinking of the clutch packs in Auto trannys and thinking "oh no, my DSG doesn't have that!". Oh yes, it does. Two of them.

And yes, I shift to neutral at red lights. Maybe it doesn't matter to some of you, but this car drags the clutches all the time when stopped, it absolutely gnaws at me whenever it'd doing this - it's just plain wrong. Plus I hate having to hold the brake unnecessarily on level ground (please don't give me a driver's ed lesson on this, I won't change and am always aware who is coming up behind me)

[compguy]

I am fairly certain that when in gear and fully stopped that my car (DSG) doesn't drag the clutch. In fact, the short pause of it actually taking out the clutch to get the car rolling bugs me when inching the car into the garage. Also on an incline, like in the driveway, I can feel the car roll back the instant the brake is let go and feel the brakes automatically applying to stop the roll back. Does your car behave differently?

Lol guys, on the DL501 (7-speed longitudinal S-tronic) each of the two shaft has a stack of alternating clutch plates and disks, sometimes called a multi-plate clutch, or a clutch pack. Wet or dry, it's still a pair of clutch packs. The DQ250 (6-speed transverse DSG on golfs and TTs) is similar. Only the lower-end DQ200 has single-plate clutches.

I think some of you are thinking of the clutch packs in Auto trannys and thinking "oh no, my DSG doesn't have that!". Oh yes, it does. Two of them.

And yes, I shift to neutral at red lights. Maybe it doesn't matter to some of you, but this car drags the clutches all the time when stopped, it absolutely gnaws at me whenever it'd doing this - it's just plain wrong. Plus I hate having to hold the brake unnecessarily on level ground (please don't give me a driver's ed lesson on this, I won't change and am always aware who is coming up behind me)

[ilspazzaneve]

I am fairly certain that when in gear and fully stopped that my car (DSG) doesn't drag the clutch. In fact, the short pause of it actually taking out the clutch to get the car rolling bugs me when inching the car into the garage. Also on an incline, like in the driveway, I can feel the car roll back the instant the brake is let go and feel the brakes automatically applying to stop the roll back. Does your car behave differently?

Hmmm. lol I'm always in neutral when I make a full stop, so as much as I believe it's true, I can't tell you from recent experience. I CAN tell you both the F430 and a MP4-12C do not drag the clutch until you hit the gas....this is how the DSG should be set up.

I get the incline rolling thing too, but that's only on a decent slope.

I'll VAG it tomorrow and confirm, should be pretty easy to tell with engine load.

[blackswan]

Coming from an M3 with DCT as my previous car, one of the reasons why I asked the questions was because the M3 would always shift to N automatically when at a stop, which is something I loved, as I too hate having to put my foot on the brake at stop lights. So I'm now getting into the habit of shifting into N whenever I stop.

[Nighthawk]

I thought it was it neutral when you stop. You can feel it disengage and re-engage when you stop and go. It is linked to the brake pedal though, not the gas pedal - hence the delay when you take your foot off the brake before you coast away. I could be wrong, but it just seems funny to have to shift to neutral at lights or in stop and go on the highway. I think the big thing is to not let the car sit stationary on a slight incline with just the engine/tranny alone (i.e. - use the brake pedal when stopped on an incline). That is what is bad for the clutch packs.

[blackswan]

I don't think the car goes into neutral when you stop, because the car creeps forward if you take your foot off the brake.

[P_RsS4]

I don't think the car goes into neutral when you stop, because the car creeps forward if you take your foot off the brake.

When you take your foot of the break there is about a second before you feel the clutches engage. I don't know if when you stop the transmission shifts in to N but I do know that the clutches disengage.

[ilspazzaneve]

Ok I'm sitting in the car, 100% certain the clutch drags when stopped in D.

[ilspazzaneve]

Simple way for everyone to see this is to watch the mileage display go from 2.0 L/hr in D, to 1.2 in N. load is on the motor to drag those clutches.

[jscaf]

I have a DSG 2010; Daily driver in Washington, DC area traffic.
Hi, I don't put the car in neutral at stop lights. Maybe I should? I asked Audi specifically this question and they told me that " when the car is at a stop there is no engagement of the clutches." He stated to me that "if you are at an incline - even very small - keep your foot on the brake so that this will not wear the transmission."

When I let go of the brake pedal I "feel" that this is when the clutch becomes engaged and allows take-off.

I get a slight roll back when I take my foot off the brake and press the gas. I changed my driving style so on slight inclines or on hills (or racing someone) I keep left foot on brake and as I am sliding it off hit the gas.

[P_RsS4]

Thats weird. I know my clutches disengage. At first I thought there was something wrong with my transmission. I then did research and found that the clutches do in-fact disengage when you press the breaks and the car is stopped. There is a slight incline in my driveway, when I stop on it then release the break the car rolls slightly back before the clutches engage. It happens every time..

[blackswan]

Going back to my original post, in the M3 the DCT tranny always goes into N at a stop - once you stop the car, you can take your foot off the brake. In the DSG, you cannot do this - so therefore the car must still be in gear at a stop. That's why I will have to get used to shifting into N.

Edit: arguments for and against this - can an Audi tech chime in? Would love to know the answer to this.

[nicko916]

I'm not sure if this is proper, but I just pull the ebrake button and it seems to disengage the trans even in D. discovered it the other day on my 2012 S4 when i was bored waiting for a friend.

[blackphantom]

For those with DSG, do you put your car into Neutral for short term stops, eg at red stop lights? I read somewhere that to leave the car in gear with your foot on the brake while stationary can put undue pressure on the DSG clutchpacks.

ihave the hill hold assist option fitted,when you come to a stop {on level ground or on an incline} the electromechanical brake is automatically applied then as soon as you touch the gas pedal its released.its a cheap option that audi should have included as standard with the dsg transmission

[Eggplant Wizard]

Hill hold is standard in the US.

[blackphantom]

Hill hold is standard in the US.

just looked on audi usa it lists {Electronic stabilization control [ESC] and Anti-lock Brake System [ABS] with Electronic Brake-pressure Distribution [EBD]; Electromechanical parking brake } as standard could not see hill hold mentioned anywhere.

[svander]

Yeah, doubt you're going to find that in the Audi site as a feature listed. It's in your manual though...

Clutches do disengage at a stop. They re engage automatically (after about half a second delay) the second you remove your foot off the brake pedal.

All VW/Audi DSG operates like this.

[jc522]

I have a friend who teaches transmissions, has owned several Audis, and has been to school on the s-tronic. According to him it does disengage the clutch when at a stop with the brake applied. Papers he gave me from the class also show this. Have you ever slipped from brake to accel very quickly and felt the bump as the clutch engages? The bump is still there in Comfort mode, but for some reason it seems to happen less often. Also, if you've ever tried to drive the car up a set of ramps to change the oil you know that the dropping into N makes it a real PITA to slowly crawl up a ramp if you stop on the way up.

[skiracerblah]

FYI, i go to manual mode in bumper to bumper traffic so the tranny doesn't "overshift" and cause unnecessary wear & tear on the clutchpacks. Just a habit coming from a lightly modified Evo with a Getrag dual clutch tranny that was hitting the torque limits of the tranny where the clutchws would slip and didn't want to push it much more.


On a side note, here's some VW Clutchpacks which are good for 500whp

http://www.sspperformance.com/produc...-package---vw/

[NWS4Guy]

Hill hold is standard in the US.

No, it's a seperate button in front of the parking brake trigger. It's standard on VW's not the S4 (at least not currently), also missing in the US are power folding mirrors, underseat storage, headlamp washers and several other small cost cutting measures.

You can code the VCDS to release the brake when forward motion is applied, and use the parking brake for hill hold, which is essentially what the button for it does anyway.

Yeah, doubt you're going to find that in the Audi site as a feature listed. It's in your manual though...

Clutches do disengage at a stop. They re engage automatically (after about half a second delay) the second you remove your foot off the brake pedal.

All VW/Audi DSG operates like this.

Exactly correct.

[gdsm3]

No, it's a seperate button in front of the parking brake trigger. It's standard on VW's not the S4 (at least not currently), also missing in the US are power folding mirrors, underseat storage, headlamp washers and several other small cost cutting measures.

You can code the VCDS to release the brake when forward motion is applied, and use the parking brake for hill hold, which is essentially what the button for it does anyway.



Exactly correct.

I thought that pressing the brake in a little harder on an incline/decline would automatically engage the brake for hill holding..... It seems to work that way on my 2011

[Eggplant Wizard]

My car absolutely holds the brakes until the accelerator is depressed after releasing the brake pedal on an incline. It doesn't require any extra buttons to be pressed, it's automatic. Hill Hold. I did not pay extra for this.

Edit: and you can see in my avatar that my driveway is quite sloped, so I use this feature often.

[ilspazzaneve]

Seriously, for all you who still believe the clutches are disengaged at a stop, watch your mileage counter while stopped on the brakes.

When you shift from N to D, you will plainly see the consumption go up because it is loading up the clutch pack, while stopped. If your car does NOT do this, I'd be very interested to know.

You will likely see 1.2 L/hr in N, and 1.7-2.0 L/min in D. Idle speed is the same, there is no other source for the load.

That is the reason to shift to neutral at a stop.

[Eggplant Wizard]

I'm going to try it out of curiosity, but my feeling is that there are other reasons besides dragging clutches that could cause load on the engine to go up in D.

[ilspazzaneve]

Such as? Idle speed is the same. And there is a definite forward thrust, I don't even need to let go of the brakes fully to let the car creep on the clutch.

Now I'm wondering if it's a software revision thing? But I don't think so. Audi programmed S-tronic to behave like a slushbox for the non-enthusiasts. That's why it does this.

[nowclickthis]

The clutches may not be *fully* engaged at a stop, but they most definitely a partially engaged. DSG is not like R-tronic or SMG or E-Gear which are basically robotized traditional manual transmissions which fully disengage their clutches at a complete stop (and therefore offer no "creep"). Note that many versions of the automated manuals above actually should still be shifted into neutral -- just like a real manual transmission -- to avoid wear on the throwout bearing. Each SMG II and III at least will eventually change to "N" automatically after something like 30 seconds to prevent excessive wear, but there's still driver intervention involved at some level.

Back to DSG… Listen to the load on your motor as you switch from "D" to "N" at a complete standstill. Hear the difference? Still don't believe it? Hook up your favorite OBD reader or VCDS and watch the engine load parameters and fuel delivery rates increase by a good 25% when in "D". You're definitely wearing out your clutches if you're sitting at red lights in "D" as if you had a slush box.

[Banan]

Now I don't have an S4 but an A4 allroad so there might be some software difference, but my car is clearly dragging it's clutch when standing still in a red light. I can clearly hear the engine sound changing when shifting between neutral and first. I always put the car in neutral when standing still. I haven't tried ilspazzaneve's way with the L/Hr showing but will do so next time.

[audisarecool]

I highly doubt Audi designed the S4's dsg to require a shift into "N" at a stop.

[nowclickthis]

Whether they "designed" the transmission to undergo the wear associated with being left in "D" when stopped isn't really the issue; it's just that it will create unnecessary wear on the transmission, more so than a traditional automatic. Warranty coverage won't be denied because you didn't shift the car into "N" at every traffic light. But that doesn't mean those who choose to just let the clutch slip every time they stop won't see more wear on the drivetrain.

If you have DSG and plan on keeping the car for a long time (e.g., past its warranty), shift into neutral if you're sitting for more than a few seconds.

[Eggplant Wizard]

Occam's Razor. DSG is designed to be driven in the same manner as any other automatic. Already have a DSG car with 80k miles still going strong. I'll shit a brick if the clutch packs wear out before the mechatronics shreds itself.

[P_RsS4]

I guess there has to be different softwear on the DSG. I just tried to let my car creep forward and can't get it to do it. I have to completely lift my foot of the break pedal and wait for about 1/2 second before I feel the car start to creep forward.

[Lloyd_Christmas]

As entertaining as this debate is, why doesn't someone (not it!) just open the owners manual and see if there is any language about shifting the DSG tranny to neutral when not in motion. If it is not in there, there clearly Audi didn't view the theorized wear as either a) existent or b) serious enough to warrant making mention of it.

[Banan]

@Lloyd: There are those who are more anal about the cars maintenance then what the manual recommend, my manual says I should wait up to 30.000km between oil-changes. I wouldn't even think of following that either...

[Kandiru]

Haha, i keep the clutch depressed, revvvvvv it nicely once or twice as the opposite
traffic get yellow for that spectacular launch .....................

[LYKUNO]

As entertaining as this debate is, why doesn't someone (not it!) just open the owners manual and see if there is any language about shifting the DSG tranny to neutral when not in motion. If it is not in there, there clearly Audi didn't view the theorized wear as either a) existent or b) serious enough to warrant making mention of it.

I scanned the entire 8 pages of the manual into an HTM doc, but can't seem to find a way to post that document as an attachment in AZ. Meantime, here's a screen shot excerpt from the manual's S-Tronic section that may dispel any doubts ...

[IMG][/IMG]