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Thread: Oil, Why 5W-40

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    Oil, Why 5W-40

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    Ok so i know this comes up a lot but ive never found the answer I'm looking for while searching the forums. I've been changing my oil in my B6 S4 with Mobil 1
    0W-30 because that is the weight that the owners manuel calls for. Now i see just about everyone putting 5w-40 into there B6 and B7. I have 120k on my car im getting ready to do my next oil change, so my question is why the switch? Should i put in the 5w-40, will it be better on my car i care so dearly about loll. If it will help her run better for longer i have no problem with it i just want to know why it changed.

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    Registered User Four Rings Hugh@EuropaParts's Avatar
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    Personally I wouldn't put 0w-30 in a motor that has 120k on the clock... waaaaay too lite imho...
    any of these will work...

    • Lubro Moly Synthoil Premium 5W40 Engine Oil
    • Pento High Performance II 5W40 Engine Oil
    • Total Quartz 9000 Energy 5W40 Engine Oil
    • Motul 8100 X-cess 5W40 Engine Oil (5 Liter)
    • Motul Specific 505.01 502.00 505.00 5W40 Engine Oil



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    I was litterly just looking at the kit It seems like lubro moly 5w-40 is liked by many on this forum i think im gonna go ahead and order this kits from you guys. Thank you =)

  4. #4
    Senior Member Two Rings nadatia's Avatar
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    0w40 for the win
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  5. #5
    Veteran Member Four Rings dparm's Avatar
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    You can largely ignore what's printed on the bottle. For something to qualify as a 0w40, there's a range of kinematic viscosities it can have. So it is entirely possible for there to be a "thin 0w40" and a "thick 0w40". There are some 5w30s that are so thick they're only 5% thinner than some 5w40s, for example. It's a sliding scale.

    The reason I say you can ignore what's on the bottle is that the HTHSV (high temp high shear viscosity, sometimes shown as just HTHS) is the true "operational viscosity" of an oil. HTHS is basically the oil's kinematic viscosity at 150 C, a temperature you will see in the bearings and other high-stress areas. Judge an oil's viscosity by the HTHS value, not the printed viscosity on the label. The VW 502/505 (and ACEA A3/B3 spec upon which it is based) calls for HTHS to be at least 3.5. You will see a whole host of oils right around there: 0w30s, 5w30s, 0w40s, and 5w40s.

    Here's a good example: Castrol Syntec 0w30 and Liqui-Moly Synthoil Energy 0w40 both have HTHSV of 3.6. This means that for all intents and purposes, these two oils will have the same viscosity during normal operation. This is despite one appearing to be thinner! Another good example: Red Line 5w30 and Mobil 1 0w40 both have HTHSV of 3.8. Again, both of those oils will have the same viscosity during normal operation....yet one is 5w30 and the other 0w40!

    Here's another doosy that will really illustrate it well: Motul 300V 5w40 offers HTHSV of 4.51. Castrol Syntec 5w50 offers HTHSV of 4.3...so which oil is thicker? The Motul is, despite being labeled as a 5w40 and appearing to be thinner.

    One more in case you still aren't getting it: Red Line 5w20 has HTHSV of 3.3. Pennzoil Ultra 5w30 has HTHSV of 3.1...so the Pennzoil is thicker because it's a 5w30, right? Wrong, the Red Line is thicker since it has a higher HTSV.



    Where people get into trouble is assuming that all 0w30s, for example, are the same viscosity. They aren't. Mobil 1 Advanced Fuel Economy 0w30 has an HTHSV of only 3.0 -- it is considerably thinner than Castrol Syntec 0w30 (3.6). The M1 would be some 17% thinner in operation despite being labeled as the same viscosity! Certain boutique oils for racing/high-performance apps, like Red Line and Motul 300V, have abnormally high HTHSV for their grade. Red Line's 5w30, as I said above, is as thick as many 5w40/0w40s! This is a result of the special group V basestocks they use.



    Pick an oil with HTHSV 3.5-4.0. Anything higher than 4.0 is unnecessary in most of our cars and will just sap power and generate more heat (and change oil pressure slightly). Anything under 3.5 is a gamble that would result in more power/better fuel economy but provide considerably less protection.
    Last edited by dparm; 04-13-2012 at 10:59 AM.
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    Veteran Member Four Rings dparm's Avatar
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    I'll add something since I'm sure people are wondering why the labeled viscosity can be so misleading: it's because the "5w40" is derived from its performance at two temperature points that the engine spends almost no time at. The HTHSV is measured at 150C which is absolutely seen for extended periods in the valvetrain, among other places.

    It bugs me that the system is so confusing but it isn't helped by the European car companies generating big oil lists and building their own ultra-tight oil requirements. The domestic and Asian companies have their own requirements but they're quite relaxed. My parents' Infinitis (both VQ35 high-output V6s) can run on any 5w30.
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    Registered User Four Rings Hugh@EuropaParts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by catsonacid View Post
    I was litterly just looking at the kit It seems like lubro moly 5w-40 is liked by many on this forum i think im gonna go ahead and order this kits from you guys. Thank you =)
    Anytime!

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    my regular dealer use M1 5w40 for v8 s4 so i been using that since. well i only go to one dealer for all my work/maintenance. working well so far.

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    Veteran Member Three Rings
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    Quote Originally Posted by madkimchi View Post
    my regular dealer use M1 5w40 for v8 s4 so i been using that since. well i only go to one dealer for all my work/maintenance. working well so far.
    thats an epic failure, as M1 5W40 does not meet any 502.00 specs.

    If its a dealership, they should be using Castrol 5W40

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  10. #10
    Veteran Member Three Rings miggity02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dparm View Post
    You can largely ignore what's printed on the bottle. For something to qualify as a 0w40, there's a range of kinematic viscosities it can have. So it is entirely possible for there to be a "thin 0w40" and a "thick 0w40". There are some 5w30s that are so thick they're only 5% thinner than some 5w40s, for example. It's a sliding scale.

    The reason I say you can ignore what's on the bottle is that the HTHSV (high temp high shear viscosity, sometimes shown as just HTHS) is the true "operational viscosity" of an oil. HTHS is basically the oil's kinematic viscosity at 150 C, a temperature you will see in the bearings and other high-stress areas. Judge an oil's viscosity by the HTHS value, not the printed viscosity on the label. The VW 502/505 (and ACEA A3/B3 spec upon which it is based) calls for HTHS to be at least 3.5. You will see a whole host of oils right around there: 0w30s, 5w30s, 0w40s, and 5w40s.

    Here's a good example: Castrol Syntec 0w30 and Liqui-Moly Synthoil Energy 0w40 both have HTHSV of 3.6. This means that for all intents and purposes, these two oils will have the same viscosity during normal operation. This is despite one appearing to be thinner! Another good example: Red Line 5w30 and Mobil 1 0w40 both have HTHSV of 3.8. Again, both of those oils will have the same viscosity during normal operation....yet one is 5w30 and the other 0w40!

    Here's another doosy that will really illustrate it well: Motul 300V 5w40 offers HTHSV of 4.51. Castrol Syntec 5w50 offers HTHSV of 4.3...so which oil is thicker? The Motul is, despite being labeled as a 5w40 and appearing to be thinner.

    One more in case you still aren't getting it: Red Line 5w20 has HTHSV of 3.3. Pennzoil Ultra 5w30 has HTHSV of 3.1...so the Pennzoil is thicker because it's a 5w30, right? Wrong, the Red Line is thicker since it has a higher HTSV.



    Where people get into trouble is assuming that all 0w30s, for example, are the same viscosity. They aren't. Mobil 1 Advanced Fuel Economy 0w30 has an HTHSV of only 3.0 -- it is considerably thinner than Castrol Syntec 0w30 (3.6). The M1 would be some 17% thinner in operation despite being labeled as the same viscosity! Certain boutique oils for racing/high-performance apps, like Red Line and Motul 300V, have abnormally high HTHSV for their grade. Red Line's 5w30, as I said above, is as thick as many 5w40/0w40s! This is a result of the special group V basestocks they use.



    Pick an oil with HTHSV 3.5-4.0. Anything higher than 4.0 is unnecessary in most of our cars and will just sap power and generate more heat (and change oil pressure slightly). Anything under 3.5 is a gamble that would result in more power/better fuel economy but provide considerably less protection.
    Where can you find the HTSV of an oil? Many threads on Shell Rotella T6 5w40; what's your opinion on it?
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    Veteran Member Four Rings dparm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zxsuxr View Post
    thats an epic failure, as M1 5W40 does not meet any 502.00 specs.

    If its a dealership, they should be using Castrol 5W40

    It meets MB 229.51 which is almost identical to VW 502/505. M1 ESP Formula M meets ACEA A3/B3 and has HTHS 3.8. It'll be fine. Wouldn't be my first choice though.

    The other M1 5w40 variety is Turbo Diesel Truck (TDT). HTHS 3.8 and meets some strict diesel engine specs; safe to use too though I think that oil is in desperate need of an update.


    There are some other diesel engine-specific 5w40s from Mobil but that's outside the scope of what we're talkinga bout here.
    Last edited by dparm; 04-13-2012 at 11:25 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by miggity02 View Post
    Where can you find the HTSV of an oil? Many threads on Shell Rotella T6 5w40; what's your opinion on it?

    Manufacturer's website might list it on the product data sheet/technical data sheet. You may have to email and ask. Pretty much any 5w40 is going to be above 3.5 -- I've never seen one that wasn't.

    If the oil is ACEA A3/B3/B4, then we know it's at least 3.5.


    T6 5w40 has HTHSV about 4.0-4.2. Good budget oil that has worked for a lot of people. Typically runs about $23/gallon, which is around $5.50/qt.
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    dparm...you are a reason that rep systems were created...wish I could give you some. Thank you for making that so much simpler!!!
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    Ha, thanks man. It's a community and I want to make sure everyone can enjoy their car for many years to come. Pay it forward.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dparm View Post
    Manufacturer's website might list it on the product data sheet/technical data sheet. You may have to email and ask. Pretty much any 5w40 is going to be above 3.5 -- I've never seen one that wasn't.

    If the oil is ACEA A3/B3/B4, then we know it's at least 3.5.


    T6 5w40 has HTHSV about 4.0-4.2. Good budget oil that has worked for a lot of people. Typically runs about $23/gallon, which is around $5.50/qt.
    Thanks for the response! I've been running t6 for a while now in both cars and my dads mk5 and I've been happy. I do notice a slightly higher operating temp though. ( I think)
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    Veteran Member Four Rings dparm's Avatar
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    Engine temperature shouldn't be affected. These are not air cooled engines -- the thermostat will regulate everything pretty much regardless of the oil you run.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 04 S4 View Post
    dparm...you are a reason that rep systems were created...wish I could give you some. Thank you for making that so much simpler!!!
    2nd that!!
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