Cost to rebuild heads and block quoted $3000

[rizroz]

Im currently doing a 605 build. my current engine in the car blew so i bought a used block from audis4parts.com and all the new bearings, rods, piston rings, bolts etc from 034.

I got a quote for $3000 to hot tank / balance/ build the bottom end with the new rods/ bearings and stock pistons.
and rebuild/ 3 angle valve job for my 2.8 heads with new inconel valves, new valve seals, and new guides.

I have all the parts so the $3,000 is just labor.

I did a 1.8t build a couple years ago and didnt pay anywhere near that to have machine work done. is $3000 around how much people are paying? I'm located in the bay area so if anyone has any recommendations for a machine shop let me know!

[P_Diako]

That is insane. My rebuild for my 7mgte motor (supra turbo) cost me about 1200 in labor including a rebuild on the head (24 valve). I would look somewhere else if I were you.

[A42007]

That is extremely high especially for a motor that doesn't have to be pulled. Are they quoting the install of the motor as well?

[rizroz]

thats what i was thinking as well. for less than $3000 i could of just bought a low mileage 2.7t and threw my rods in.

That is insane. My rebuild for my 7mgte motor (supra turbo) cost me about 1200 in labor including a rebuild on the head (24 valve). I would look somewhere else if I were you.

anyone in northern california have any recommendations for a shop?

[rizroz]

That is extremely high especially for a motor that doesn't have to be pulled. Are they quoting the install of the motor as well?

nope its a bare block and heads already disassembled. im reinstalling everything in the car.

[TLO03]

you mind telling what you paid for the block?

[rizroz]

you mind telling what you paid for the block?

my stock pistons were destroyed so i ended up getting a new block with another set of stock pistons. it was $400 for both

[ThirdStrike]

I wouldnt pay anymore than ~800 per head, new valves and all
edit; i just re-read.. 3k in labor ... lol SMDH

[rizroz]

I wouldnt pay anymore than ~800 per head, new valves and all

I bought new exhaust valves, seals, and guides from 034 so looking for the price for just the labor. is $800 around how much the labor should cost?

[sektor M7]

Ahigh estmate usually means that they don' want the job....

[ThirdStrike]

I bought new exhaust valves, seals, and guides from 034 so looking for the price for just the labor. is $800 around how much the labor should cost?

~80-100/hour and ~2/3 hours per head

[rizroz]

~80-100/hour and ~2/3 hours per head

When i told the machine shop owner i was looking to spend around $1500 he gave me a WTF face. his $3000 estimate was his low side estimate if everything goes smooth. and basically said every other shop around me doesn't have the equipment to properly complete what i needed done and it would be a half ass job if i took it elsewhere.

[AudiA4_20T]

If he actually is checking clearances and everything I could easily see 20+ hours. This isn't a 2 hour job

[Highhats]

should be about 1500 - S

[rizroz]

should be about 1500 - S

yeah im gonna try checking some other shops in the area. Nice s4 btw love the matte black

[034Motorsport]

$1500 is a low price for around here to do an Audi shortblock; this is for everything, pistons set, line honed if necessary, etc, balanced to 9000+rpm, etc.

30v heads are very expensive to work with. They cost over $1000 in labor for a pair, and your choices are very limited if you want quality work in the Bay Area. This is for replacing all 30v valves, cutting new seats, cutting new guides, etc. Someone could get away with doing it for less, it they half assed it.

Quoting a single Supra engine build and head is like comparing apples to oranges; they are both fruit, but they are nothing alike. 30v heads are, well, first off they are 30v. This makes the size of everything incredibly small, requiring different tools, and there are 2 entire heads. This means double the cams to remove, etc. Quoting a 24v VR6 build would be closer, and they are cheaper to build then a 30v V6.

Therefore, $3000 to do everything, entirely, including head gaskets and such, doesn't sound that expensive to me.

[rizroz]

so $3k just labor no parts and picking up the heads and block separate there not putting anything together is about right for this type of job? I dont mind paying that for quality work just dont wanna get ripped off

[034Motorsport]

so $3k just labor no parts and picking up the heads and block separate there not putting anything together is about right for this type of job? I dont mind paying that for quality work just dont wanna get ripped off

PM'ed you as well.

[Tony@EPL]

should be about 1500 - S

Sign me up if you know someone in the Tri-state that can do all the block machine work, cut valve seats, grind valves, install valve guides, assemble block and heads for 1500.

3000 is more then reasonable if this includes measuring tolerances, pin fitting rods and balancing the final rotating assembly. In fact I wouldn't call it reasonable, I would call it cheap.

[2380S4]

I don't think it's that crazy of a rate. When doing research for my build I got several quotes on rebuilds on the bottom end and heads it was crazy expensive. I was able to come across a couple good AZ'ers that gave some great prices. Still for a built bottom end with all new parts and a fully rebuilt set of 2.8 heads all new parts as well, set me back around $6500 and they were separate.

[MikeyB3]

While it might seem pricey... You get what you pay for, in my experience.

[jballou]

$3K is about right man. I have had a bunch of motors done by my Machine shop. Balancing the motors, doing all the head work (not porting,) doing all the measurements like bob weight. The cost also includes putting together the rotating assembly and measuring the stretch of the bolts instead of torque. Every single motor I have had my machine shop build, they are still all running.

Remember-**

"Cheap is Expensive...."

[rizroz]

thanks everyone. looks like there estimate was on point. Hopefully i get this car done within the next month. Will post a build thread once i get everything back from the machine shop. and will bring it to 034 for tuning once everythings done!

[GravityWorks]

buy a book, learn a new skill, save $$$.

Another option, if you have the time or inclination + a little talent! good luck either way :)

[jibberjive]

I wouldnt pay anymore than ~800 per head, new valves and all

$800 per head would barely cover the hardware cost.


OP, you're doing well by listening to the shops that are posting in this thread. Blueprinting an APB is not fun nor cheap, and the 30V heads aren't cheap to deal with either. However, assembling the bottom end isn't necessarily too difficult, just tedious and time consuming. If you're considering doing it DIY to save some money, click this link to get an idea, as there's pictures and a spec sheet with install tips.

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...=1#post6803146

For a cost example, if you were to just have the machine shop do the labor:
hot tank $60-100
headwork $600 or so
cylinders hone & polish $50+ (prob can go quite a bit higher, not too sure)
balancing rotating assembly ~$250

So that's ~$1k bare minimum in just machine shop labor, with you assembling the block and top of the heads (cams, cam tensioners, etc) yourself. Add a couple hundred if you have the mating surfaces of the heads and block decked, add some money if you need more head stuff, like new guides installed or cam/crank polishing.

You CAN save a grand or so by doing the labor for the assembly yourself, and I'd encourage it if you feel so inclined. However, the work is indeed $1k+ worth of labor that you'll be putting in.

[S4 00 2.7]

Keep us posted.

[julex]

Stuff

OP.

The above is right on. Have the shop do items you cannot possibly do which means hot tanking, boring/honing and balancing rotating assembly but they will most likely be more $$$ than Jibber quoted though.

For rest of activities, get couple of basic tool which will cost you a total of maybe $300 and you can assemble this stuff yourself saving $2000 off that quote above (remembering that the $3000 quote is just labor, no parts involved).

Tools:
- Valve spring compressor, generai VAG model ~100 on ebay or from tools store
- Piston ring grinder and stretch gauge, these are pretty good:
http://www.area51groupllc.com/produc...products_id/34
http://www.area51groupllc.com/produc...9re7i6qae58hi4
- Torque wrench, here you might want to buy a quality tool that will last.
- Generic valve seat grinder/lapper and grinding/lapping paste.

[rizroz]

Thanks again guys looks like i can go that route and have the machine shop do all the machine work and ill put it back together. I've built a 1.8t which is still running strong after 80,000 miles so this should go smooth with a spec sheet to follow

[shorterthanrich]

I paid $2,000 in labor
My block torn down to the bare shortblock, heads off.
I paid for:

-Block dis assembly
-Hot tanking
-Hone
-Decking
-Head dis assembly
-Head hot tank
-Head Decking
-Valve Job
-Block assembly
-Final balancing

Granted, my valves failed on the first startup, and we never really figured out why, but I paid an additional $200 in labor to have a new valve job, piston replaced, and cyl ball-honed back into shape.

I definitely went with the lowest cost that I could find nearby. And sometimes cheap really is more expensive, as stated above.

[wdbdy2000s4]

$3k is a fair deal. sorry

[ThirdStrike]

$800 per head would barely cover the hardware cost.


You CAN save a grand or so by doing the labor for the assembly yourself, and I'd encourage it if you feel so inclined. However, the work is indeed $1k+ worth of labor that you'll be putting in.

mexicans do cheap, yet quality work where I live. I recently had a 1.8 head rebuilt and paid $187.00 for labor.

And doing it yourself is a good idea too. I've gone at it myself w/a bentley manual and its not too hard. I use this compressor kit; http://pitposse.com/vaspco.html
works great for 1.8/2.7 heads

[Turbo Nerd]

I paid $600 for my 1.8 here's what they did

-hot tank
-hone/bore to 82.5mm
-deck
-gap rings
-balance assembly

I assembled the bottom end my self so that saved a grip of $. I only pay for work that I don't know how to do or don't want to do it. So if you got the time, patience, and skills (really nothing to it) then you could save yourself some money by just having machine work done. Overall I think 3k is a pretty fair price.

[jibberjive]

- Piston ring grinder and stretch gauge, these are pretty good:
http://www.area51groupllc.com/produc...products_id/34
http://www.area51groupllc.com/produc...9re7i6qae58hi4
- Torque wrench, here you might want to buy a quality tool that will last.
- Generic valve seat grinder/lapper and grinding/lapping paste.

Nice links on the tools. Yeah, I'd definitely buy a ring gapper tool, and not throw together one like I did (I would've done the same if I had time to wait for it to be delivered).

On the torque wrench, I splurged. For the whole project I've bought my fair share of tools from Harbor Freight and the like, but after HF's big and little clicker torque wrenches sheared off bolts on my motorcycles, I decided that torque wrenches was one area that I can not trust HF in (especially on engine internals, where torque matters). After a lot of research and time looking for a good torque wrench combo that would be accurate and not too crazy spendy, I decided on:

-Snap On Techwrench TECH2FR100 5-100ftlbs (pretty crazy accurate from 10-100ft-lbs) http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/item....re&dir=catalog

-Craftsman beam torque wrench for all of the 10NM bolts
http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_1...1&blockType=G1

The Snap On I got on ebay in good condition for like $180 IIRC. They go for under $200 all of the time. And the swiveling head is sweet, not to mention switching between NM and ft-lbs by pushing a button. I was looking for a beam-type wrench for the smaller values because they are durable as far as calibration goes (you just bend the rod back to zero if it's out), and they are accurate and simple, based on well-understood beam deflection principles. So, ~$200 or so and I've got a sick torque wrench setup from 10NM up to 100ft lbs (and I just use my over-torquing HF wrench for anything above that).

mexicans do cheap, yet quality work where I live. I recently had a 1.8 head rebuilt and paid $187.00 for labor.

And doing it yourself is a good idea too. I've gone at it myself w/a bentley manual and its not too hard. I use this compressor kit; http://pitposse.com/vaspco.html
works great for 1.8/2.7 heads

Yeah, we've got our fair share of skilled, cheap Mexicans up here as well. For example, my buddy just got his old runner fully resprayed black for $400. A lot of the them are very skilled at what they do, but I can't say I know of any cheap ones that can compete quality-wise with the shop that I use (reflective in the prices), which, for example uses a Sunnen VGS-20 for the headwork and I think a nice Sunnen for the decking as well. Pretty similar machines to these HPF videos, to give you an idea, and I don't know of any 'under the table' mechanics that can get these tolerances. Also, of the like 5 most legit machine shops in the area that I contacted, only 1 or 2 even had the bob-weights to correctly balance the Audi V-6's.

I've built a 1.8t which is still running strong after 80,000 miles so this should go smooth with a spec sheet to follow

Sweet, if you've done a 1.8t then you should be able to do this. They're really similar. However, you'll also want the Bentley manual in addition to my spec sheet, because I didn't include some stuff that Bentley already has in it.

I paid $600 for my 1.8 here's what they did

-hot tank
-hone/bore to 82.5mm
-deck
-gap rings
-balance assembly

Sounds pretty decent. Some differences between that and his APB though is your price doesn't include any head work, and the V-6 has twice the decking that needs to be done. Not a bad price at all though.

[redline380]

3 Grand seems very steep to me. My local machine shop would be way cheaper. As an example I paid 20 bucks a hole to bore, 80 for hot tank and lead shot, and 70 for compression check on head and cam timing. True you want more work done and have more parts than my four cylinder but it still seems outrageous. Its absolutely ridiculous how much some people charge for motor work. I know the equipment ain't cheap but damn where does it end? And my local guys do good work too.

[smashed s4]

i got a block for ya... 114k miles on it though haha.

[034Motorsport]

Mike, Bring everything in when you get back and we will get everything put together.

[sandspeed]

As a professional mechanic working on extreme-precision equipment, I would recommend you stay away from swivel head torque wrenches. Anything that modifies the angle of the head, or adds an offset or extension, causes the torque value to change. If you are ok with the end value being off by 5-10%, then go ahead and use that type of setup. In the aircraft world (military specifically) we don't like swivel heads for torquing and we tend to stay away from digital wrenches as well. They tend to be a bit more finicky, and I would much rather use a manual collar-type wrench. You should be able to pick one of those up for $150. Also, you don't need a newton-meter torque wrench. Just pick up an in/lbs one, maybe 0-250 with 5 lb increments, then convert by multiplying the newton-meter number by 8.86, giving you the appropriate value for in/lbs.

[rizroz]

Mike, Bring everything in when you get back and we will get everything put together.

ok thanks ken ill head over there when i get back.

[TLO03]

Thanks for this thread . I had no idea of the cost, now I'll have to rethink my build a motor on the side plan.

[jibberjive]

As a professional mechanic working on extreme-precision equipment, I would recommend you stay away from swivel head torque wrenches. Anything that modifies the angle of the head, or adds an offset or extension, causes the torque value to change. If you are ok with the end value being off by 5-10%, then go ahead and use that type of setup. In the aircraft world (military specifically) we don't like swivel heads for torquing and we tend to stay away from digital wrenches as well. They tend to be a bit more finicky, and I would much rather use a manual collar-type wrench. You should be able to pick one of those up for $150. Also, you don't need a newton-meter torque wrench. Just pick up an in/lbs one, maybe 0-250 with 5 lb increments, then convert by multiplying the newton-meter number by 8.86, giving you the appropriate value for in/lbs.

Though the swivel head Snap On one is spec'd from 5-100ft-lbs (with 2% accuracy from 20% up to full range), I only use it on like 15ft-lbs and up bolts, and I use the beam torque wrench for the smaller ones. I definitely agree that the less variables the better (no swivel, no extension [in the normal axis, never on the handle], etc when possible), and I do keep it straight when it doesn't need to be bent, but I disagree that this particular wrench would be off by as much as 10% when used within its normal swivel range limits (which only swivels like +/-15 degrees). I can't imagine it changes the moment arm that much. However, if it were off 5% or so (2.25ft-lbs at a 15ft-lb torque spec, for example), I'd personally be fine with that tolerance on the bigger bolts on a car. I'm not using the big swivel head one to rebuild the small internals on a differential or on an aircraft or anything. Having also worked for the DoD on an air force base, behind the flight lines at the repair depot [not as a mechanic though], I wouldn't be using the swivel head one of govt aircraft either. For consumer application on cars however, especially considering value and wide range of application, it was pretty much ideal for me, and it is the best for me that I could find within like $100+. The cability to swivel wasn't a negative compromise for me, it's a big part of the reason why I chose this wrench over others. One of the advantages as well that the digital style torque wrenches (that use strain gauge principles) have over collar-clicker type wrenches is their durability in regards to getting knocked out of calibration. For aircraft mechanics, they often have calibration stations on-site, and requirements for calibration time frames. For the home mechanic hoping to have to get it calibrated least often as possible, that's a big advantage (which the beam-type wrenches also share).

These Snap On wrenches are some of the best consumer tools available, and as far as my experience with this specific torque wrench, I can't imagine one less finicky. Though my original motivation to get these new ones was pretty much to avoid having to use my old HF torque wrenches that were off by probably, oh 175% ha.

As for the beam wrench, ideally I would have gotten one that goes to like 200in-lbs max, but I couldn't find a good one anywhere near that price. And the lowest spec'd bolt I had on the entire build was 10NM, which turned out just fine for the one I got. I wouldn't use this torque wrench on diff internals either though. Also, of course there's no absolute need for any torque wrench to be in either imperial or metric, as there's always conversion factors, but having both of these torque wrenches that have both NM and ft-lbs, it has been awesome not having to do any calculations by hand. Super user friendly.

Just my thoughts/rationale when I researched and bought what I did.