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  1. #1
    Active Member Two Rings
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    Why does my XXXX exhaust drone and how do I fix it?

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    I see lots of threads on my XXXXX aftermarket exhaust drones..... tons of them.

    I have awful news for you. It is going to drone. But the good news, it can be fixed (albeit at a cost).

    Drone is the amplification of noise via a resonant frequency. When two object vibrate at the same frequency there is an accompanying increase in amplitude. In this case the amplitude is volume. It's annoying, but it happens. It's actually a product of substandard engineering and trying to save money on production costs. It happens because identical mufflers are used in both sides of the exhaust. They resonate at the same frequency. When you hit that frequency, in this case engine rpm, they make a wonderful woo woo woo growling sound. It's great for short periods of time, but while highway cruising it can become very annoying.

    The cure is simple, and some OEMs use this technique. The Ford 5.0 engine had horrible drone when originally produced right at highway cruising speed. The solution was to use two different sized mufflers. They in turn had different resonant frequencies. Cool huh? So you can change one of your mufflers and the drone will disappear. Different internal structure or baffling would do the same thing. Ford installed two different muffler sizes on the old 5.0 Mustangs. You will need a tape measure to verify this.

    I'm an engineer, but not an expert in wave theory. But if you want to know what horrible resonance looks like then go to Youtube and search for the Galloping Gertie videos on the original Tacoma Narrows bridge. This was the day engineers became aware of resonance. Too bad your aftermarket exhaust manufacturers are relatively unaware.

    Have a dronerrific day too.

  2. #2
    Site Moderator Four Rings Stubek's Avatar
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    I know the Tacoma Narrows bridge video very well! Studied it in more than one class.

    So, your solution is that two people who live near each other should buy two different cat back exhausts (i.e. one miltek and one AWE) then swap one muffler. So then the set up for one car would be all AWE piping to the back with one AWE muffler and one Miltek and the other car would be all Miltek piping and one of each.

    I wonder how that would sound....
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  3. #3
    Veteran Member Four Rings Cottonmouth's Avatar
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    I have a resonated quad-tip exhaust from Stratmosphere and there is no drone at all. I love it.

  4. #4
    Veteran Member Four Rings JPT's Avatar
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    Even if you were to run different mufflers, you would need to make sure the back pressure is the same on both sides... I have a feeling that if that 5.0 issue was resolved via different mufflers, the engineers still found a way to balance the back pressure on both sides of the exhaust.

  5. #5
    Registered User Four Rings
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    Yeah, this information is a bunch skewed. It's not exactly that the two objects are vibrating and causing the drone; technically, yes, all sound is vibration, but vibration on exhaust (primarily) is a result of suspension and flex.. This is why BMW uses mass dampers on certain OEM systems- it stops the natural harmonic frequencies that are a result of the exhaust gas passing through the entire system. But, to address the finer points on why many (but definitely not all) aftermarket exhaust systems tend to have 'drone':

    First, lets nail down what "drone" is- drone is a frequency that is felt as well as heard, and for the average human, it is most significant between 94hz-125hz. Some people may be more or less sensitive, but that's just human dynamics. As discussed before, sound is the subject byproduct we are discussing, and in that frequency range, it creates a pitch that can be felt. Easy parallel - big speakers at a concert. When you're far away in the back and its loud as hell, thats because the mid and upper range speakers are hammering away. Higher frequencies tend to cut through and over deeper sounds, but travel a shorter distance. But, as you get closer to the big woofers pounding away up front, you start to not hear as much, but instead, FEEL the bass.

    Drone is the magic range at which you can both hear AND feel the exhaust sound.

    Factory systems do loads to prevent you from hearing this. I can't even begin to cover all of that, but most notable examples include mass dampers, valves, and specially chambered devices, which we'll get to.

    Sound travels as a wave. Exhaust gas pulses travel like waves through the tubes.

    It's about to get tough right here: The sound that creates drone, that pitch 94hz-125hz, these are long waves. You know how waves have wavelengths, and all that jazz? These pitches are long, basically from 9ft to 12ft long. As the pulses accumulate and travel down the exhaust (lets use a straight tube as a reference), the sound created will be a constant drone at that range. Bends and resonators help by breaking up the pathway of that wave, and absorbing the actual volume of the wave... but the low frequency tone is still there.. which is how you can have quiet exhaust that still drones. That sucks. Also, that's sometimes why louder exhaust doesn't seem to drone; you let the high frequency waves cut above it... like back at the concert reference we made before.

    The best way to cut down the drone is via destructive interference. What you need to do, is reflect the trouble-causing wave back at itself, 180* out of phase.

    This is like two equal people pushing an object in opposite directions- nothing happens!

    However, that effectively means you need a chamber that can reflect the wave back in a straight line for 4.5 - 6ft. First up, thats difficult under our cars, to have dead tube space like that. One of the easy ways to do it would be to have a muffler or resonator that had a dead stop in a straight line down the center of the car, but the world will assume it can't flow well enough to work. This is the balance between power/flow and sound/comfort. It's always a balance.

    Take APR for example, they use RSC technology. They are licensing this from Corsa, which is awesome, because Corsa has a patent on it. Because it works pretty well. What they do, is create that long length of tubing INSIDE a smaller canister- tough to manufacture as well- but it creates that destructive interference. If you've been in a car with a proper RSC system, you know what this is like- you hear the tone that should cause drone, but it doesnt. You don't feel it.

    There are other ways to kick that drone though. Take for example, that listed Stratmosphere exhaust- there's a mini magic trick happening in the center resonator, which works awesome on a B7 A4 because of the long straight length of tube created by the DP/center section. Where the exhaust gas splits to go to duals, its in a perforated "Y" piece.. so the waves can travel through it, hit the back of the resonator, and travel backwards (as a wave, not as exhaust gas pressure) oh, I dunno, from about 4.5-6ft right back towards the source!

    So basically, there are ways to cut down drone that you can't see. There are loads of ways to deal with it.

    With the mustang, using different size mufflers is just another trick. But it's not always the answer. I know older mustang guys used to claim that having two 26.5" long tubes welded at 90* off a section before the muffler would also eliminate the drone- all sorts of ways.

    What further makes things interesting, is how different cylinder configurations create drone at different ranges, but all the same (to an extent).. You can calculate out where 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 16 cylinder configs will drone. I am trying to remember without digging through documents (As this is all off the top of my head), but 4bangers create the 94-125hz pitches between 3500 and 4500rpm. Add a turbo to the mix, and its more difficult to sit at that RPM range while cruising. So often, you can have a system that is minimal, large diameter, and flows well, without having intrusive drone.
    What sucks, is 6 cylinders. They create the 94-125hz tone between roughly 2450 and 3250rpm. Riiiight around the range you'll likely be cruising at on the highway. This also primarily explains why BMW has some of the fanciest tricks for exhaust stuff from the factory, what with a plethora of 6 cylinders along the lineage. It's also why the B8 S4 has light drone BONE STOCK!
    8 cylinder motors are easier, as the pitches occur low, like 1850-2450rpm, which in say, the 4.2L, is barely moving along.

    No, swapping various Brands mufflers will not likely be the answer. And if it was, it'd be a total fluke. A more interesting scientific test would be to make sure an exhaust system could handle full flow out of only ONE side of a dual exit exhaust.. and then cap off the other side... that'd create your long reflecting chamber..

    Anywho- the point is, it is all about waves, and how to bounce them around. You might not see how it's done. And yes, true, not every aftermarket company bothers- but the ones that do, typically are worth the cash.

    Open to clarify or draw pictures to explain further.


  6. #6
    Veteran Member Four Rings CorneliusRox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StratJohn View Post
    Drone is the magic range at which you can both hear AND feel the exhaust sound.
    Magic :-)

    I want magic! How can I get some more drone!?

  7. #7
    Veteran Member Four Rings vdubjetta02's Avatar
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    .... I am suprised how many people buy aftermarket exhausts only to complain about drone. It's kind of like lowering a car and then complaining about scraping.......
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  8. #8
    Veteran Member Four Rings ericpaulyoung's Avatar
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    Right on, thank you for the info. Since my damn STASIS is way over sized for the little four banger, I will do a short test and cap one side and see if it goes away. I wont leave it like this, but it will be a cool test.
    Eric

  9. #9
    Deactivated Two Rings
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    Quote Originally Posted by vdubjetta02 View Post
    .... I am suprised how many people buy aftermarket exhausts only to complain about drone. It's kind of like lowering a car and then complaining about scraping.......
    I like that!!!!

  10. #10
    Active Member Four Rings drumnjuny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vdubjetta02 View Post
    .... I am suprised how many people buy aftermarket exhausts only to complain about drone. It's kind of like lowering a car and then complaining about scraping.......
    haha for real. i complain my exhaust isn't loud enough

  11. #11
    Veteran Member Four Rings D0lphinGrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ericpaulyoung View Post
    Right on, thank you for the info. Since my damn STASIS is way over sized for the little four banger, I will do a short test and cap one side and see if it goes away. I wont leave it like this, but it will be a cool test.
    Eric
    Let us know the result. It'd be a simple mod to do for those long drives, if it works.
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  12. #12
    Veteran Member Four Rings Shanster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vdubjetta02 View Post
    .... I am suprised how many people buy aftermarket exhausts only to complain about drone. It's kind of like lowering a car and then complaining about scraping.......
    Haha. that reminds me of clarkson's quote (which is also in someone's signature but I forget whose) "Sure it’s quiet, for a diesel. But that’s like being well-behaved… for a murderer."
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  13. #13
    Site Moderator Four Rings Stubek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vdubjetta02 View Post
    .... I am suprised how many people buy aftermarket exhausts only to complain about drone. It's kind of like lowering a car and then complaining about scraping.......
    There is a difference between loud or louder all the time or just when you are really getting on it.
    I personally want something that at idle sounds a little stronger than stock and when I am really on it, say 50% throttle or more, sounds stronger, but if I am on cruise control at 75mph going down the highway, I don't want to hear a lawnmower or howling dog stuck under my car.
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  14. #14
    Veteran Member Four Rings ericpaulyoung's Avatar
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    Sounds like people are confusing load with drone. Drone does not equal loud, rather it is the sound quality that we are talking about. Actually, the sound level of my new exhaust is great, it is just the resonance at load on the highway that is annoying. I think of it this way, you can turn up a $30 Walmart stereo all the way and say it's just as loud as a $1500 Boston Acoustics, but just because the decibals are the same doesn't mean the hotties are going to hop your bucket and say "wow, that sounds nice; bump that loud stereo". A sweet M5 has quite a growl to the exhaust, but it sure as heck don't drone in the cab.
    Eric

  15. #15
    Active Member Two Rings
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    I beg to differ with our esteemed advertiser. (I'm not selling you squat by the way in this thread or any thread).

    Drone is heard. Pressure waves are felt. The pressure waves from the exhaust can be felt by your hand at the back of the car but the vibration they cause in the exhaust is not felt directly thanks to hydraulic and rubber mount systems.

    Two different sized mufflers, will resonate at two different frequencies. This is important, because when you have two mufflers or two speakers or two whatever resonating at the same frequency you get wave amplification or more f'n noise. If you have items (mufflers, piano strings, whatever you choose) vibrating at different frequencies you actually get noise reduction in some cases.

    Pressure waves are felt and not heard. A wave can be felt and heard, but it isn't the same thing. You can be shot with a gun from a silenced muzzle and you won't hear much of anything. You sure will feel that pressure wave though. And with bullets of suffiicient caliber (size, mass etc.) it isn't the bullet that kills you. It's the large pressure wave destroying your internal organs.

    Resonant frequencies are a real bummer. And as for the 1800 rpm drone from a V8, just what do you think cruising RPM is for big american V8s?

    And if you want to get real picky, every engine cylinder combination has multiple frequencies or (rpm) for which it will resonate. The size of the wave amplitude at each of these naturally occuring harmonic frequencies changes though.

    If you have real actual drone from a resonant frequency. You can alter the baffling in one muffler, change it's size, change the length of piping entering it..... you can do a whole lot of things to change it's resonant characteristics. Some are just more practical given a particular installation and parts availability.

    I can assure you there are many brain dead engineers that are great at running CAD programs working in the automotive industry for OEMs and aftermarket suppliers. I can even introduce you to several.

    Very few people if any ever actually think about these things. My Audi has a terribly spec'd torque converter thanks to a brain dead engineer. They are rare in Germany compared to the US, but apparently the brain dead engineer is a universal problem with which or hands, ears and head often have to contend.

    Have a droneriffic day yet again.

  16. #16
    Veteran Member Four Rings NorcalPB's Avatar
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    What would be the best way to eliminate drone in a custom exhaust? I was thinking of adding a decently sized resonator right before the y-pipe but don't know if this will get rid of the drone completely. I love the way my exhaust sounds but don't like the drone monster it becomes after 2.5k on the freeway.

  17. #17
    Veteran Member Four Rings D0lphinGrey's Avatar
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    FWIW, I had a 3.5inch hotdog (3inch internal) just before the Y split, it didn't do jack in reducing drone. You'd also have clearance issues if the car was lowered.
    B7 A4 GT28

  18. #18
    Veteran Member Four Rings ericpaulyoung's Avatar
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    Basically our exhausts are like pipe organs that are tuned specially to piss us off. What you have to do is change the frequency that it resonates at to something we don't use, or dampen the amplitude of the resonant frequency to some thing acceptable. Look up the Corsa RSC muffler; this is how to destined your cars pipe organ using destructive interference. Or you take the dampen approach and slide in additional absorbing material into the exhaust system, i.e. add another resonator (cherry bomb) upstream the main muffler.
    Eric

  19. #19
    Veteran Member Four Rings ericpaulyoung's Avatar
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    Go to google.com/patents and search for 7600607
    Eric

  20. #20
    Veteran Member Three Rings DoItAllGarage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnthonyS View Post
    I beg to differ with our esteemed advertiser. (I'm not selling you squat by the way in this thread or any thread).

    Drone is heard. Pressure waves are felt. The pressure waves from the exhaust can be felt by your hand at the back of the car but the vibration they cause in the exhaust is not felt directly thanks to hydraulic and rubber mount systems.

    Two different sized mufflers, will resonate at two different frequencies. This is important, because when you have two mufflers or two speakers or two whatever resonating at the same frequency you get wave amplification or more f'n noise. If you have items (mufflers, piano strings, whatever you choose) vibrating at different frequencies you actually get noise reduction in some cases.

    Pressure waves are felt and not heard. A wave can be felt and heard, but it isn't the same thing. You can be shot with a gun from a silenced muzzle and you won't hear much of anything. You sure will feel that pressure wave though. And with bullets of suffiicient caliber (size, mass etc.) it isn't the bullet that kills you. It's the large pressure wave destroying your internal organs.

    Resonant frequencies are a real bummer. And as for the 1800 rpm drone from a V8, just what do you think cruising RPM is for big american V8s?

    And if you want to get real picky, every engine cylinder combination has multiple frequencies or (rpm) for which it will resonate. The size of the wave amplitude at each of these naturally occuring harmonic frequencies changes though.

    If you have real actual drone from a resonant frequency. You can alter the baffling in one muffler, change it's size, change the length of piping entering it..... you can do a whole lot of things to change it's resonant characteristics. Some are just more practical given a particular installation and parts availability.

    I can assure you there are many brain dead engineers that are great at running CAD programs working in the automotive industry for OEMs and aftermarket suppliers. I can even introduce you to several.

    Very few people if any ever actually think about these things. My Audi has a terribly spec'd torque converter thanks to a brain dead engineer. They are rare in Germany compared to the US, but apparently the brain dead engineer is a universal problem with which or hands, ears and head often have to contend.

    Have a droneriffic day yet again.
    I know this is an old thread, but it's has some great info! Just doing some homework before making my exhaust purchase.

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