Check valve and aftermarket fuel pump?

[leftovers]

An aftermarket fuel pump was installed by the previous owner late 2009. I think it is a Bosch, but I can check the model number later if it is important. Anyway, I was wondering if it is common to install a check valve with these. The car cranks 2 or 3 times before it starts. I can hear the fuel pump prime on the first key on, but if I turn the key back and forth before I crank it, it doesn't seem to prime more than once. It's definitely worse if it has been sitting overnight. It'll start right up if you just run into the store or something. Also, the car runs great otherwise.

Thoughts?

[JumboBlack1.8]

Yup, you should get a check valve. My Bosch 044 has one on the pump itself (purchased from 034 Motorsport). Some others have opted for an in-line check valve (from a BMW model, I believe....but I can't remember specifics). I'd contact Max@034 and tell him about your concerns. My car starts on the first turn every time

[leftovers]

That's what I was thinking. If someone could come up with a part number for me...and maybe a picture of where the best place to install it is....I'd be all set. Plus, I'm about to order a few other parts, so this would be a good time to get it.

[Seerlah]

Jumbo, I have the 034 Bosch 044 myself, not installed yet. But do you know where on the pump it is located? I want to inspect this myself.

And I was always under the impression that aftermarket fuel pump just needed a little more time than the stock fuel pump to prime the system, upon placing key in ignition. Basically, you turn it to acessory position, and you can hear the pump running and priming the system. As soon as it builds up enough fuel pressure, you should only need one crank to get her running. Should take only a couple seconds, but I was under the impression that was the issue with people needing to crank their car a couple times before it turned over, when running aftermarket pumps?

[leftovers]

I definitely let mine prime for a little over a second every time, but it still does it. And like I said, it only primes once, regardless of how many times I turn the key on/off before I try to crank it for the first time.

[Seerlah]

I feel like a dummy. I was sitting here thinking to myself why it would need a check valve and it just hit me. But def makes sense. You could even do something easy as place it on the rubber feed line in the engine bay, just keeping the rail pressurised. Might be the easiest location to place it, but be sure it is large enough. The negative side I see of placing it there is that you will more than likely cause gas to splatter everywhere if you ever need to remove any part of the fuel system after that (ie rail, injectors, for, etc). Just guessing, though.

[leftovers]

With some more searching, I found this thread. I don't think it answered my question though:

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...he-check-valve

[Seerlah]

I actually purchased mine from the person who posted in that link (Haenszel20v). Here is a pic of mine, and I don't see a check valve. Unless it is one of those big *** brass fittings? He also stated in that thread with your link, a check valve is not necessary.



PS: Going to install this in a couple min. Need to get this out of the way.

[JumboBlack1.8]

I'd install that with the stock plastic hose instead of the rubber one. Not all rubber fuel lines are submersible, and even the ones that ARE have ripped and burst when placed in the fuel tank.......ask me how I know....

034 sells a fitting for use with the stock plastic piece:
http://www.034motorsport.com/fuel-in...m-p-20240.html

I ran threw 4 different fuel lines before Max sent me this fitting. Been problem-free ever since

[Seerlah]

If it will fit on the current fitting on the Bosch pump, I'll use it. If not, it is going in the way it is. It was ran by a person who is rather knowledgable when it comes to cars (and who I purchased it from), for I don't know how long. He even took the measure of adding a clamp on the pump to basket for added security. If he ran it like this and sent it to me like this, I am sure it wil be fine. But I have a question. How do I get the pump out of the tank? I am outside installing my 044, and am at sort of a rut. Got all conections off and the top portion. Just need to get the actual pump out of the tank. I really don't want to put everything back together again.

Edit: Just realised it is the basket itself that needs to be turned counter clockwise by like 1/4". Going to see if brute force can get it done. And the prefilter for the 034 basket cost $70 for replacement. Ask me how I know.

[JumboBlack1.8]

If it will fit on the current fitting on the Bosch pump, I'll use it. If not, it is going in the way it is. It was ran by a person who is rather knowledgable when it comes to cars (and who I purchased it from), for I don't know how long.

So my knowledge and experience is worthless, I suppose....

Most people use the special tool to remove the pump, or they rig up a homemade alternative....SOME have had success using brute force.

[Seerlah]

Never said your knowledge and experience is worthless. You are one of the few people on here who know what they are talking about. I am just saying I would not be surprised if Haenszel20v has the chemical resistant rubber on there. If you look in his build thread, you will see he does not half *** things.

I have a tool I purchase from GetBoosted84 a while back, and figured out how to use it. Should have this sucker off within the next couple minutes hopefully. But that basket is a plain old PIA to get out. I still need my car, and will have to have it put together. If the stock feed hose in the tank bolts up (fits), then I will indeed use it. But if it doesn't, I am going to have to button up my vehicle. I'll PM him to confirm the rubber hose being chemical resitant if I do.

[bw86]

Jayracing has a nice checkvalve the hooks right up to the bosch 044 http://www.jayracing.com/index.php?m...roducts_id=227

[JumboBlack1.8]

This is what I'm telling you........I bought a Gates Submersible fuel line, ordered it from Napa, as they don't supply it anywhere near me. Gates is known as one of the best manufacturers of automotive rubber. I researched the HELL out of it, and it meets ALL specifications (can't remember them exactly, but they were 100psi psi rate, fully submersible in fuel, cross-braided, etc etc).......And after all that, the line STILL failed. It lasted a little bit longer than the lines that I purchased from 034 and Autozone (proper pressure rating, but non-submersible), but the Gates line still failed.......I contacted Max to express my concerns about the kit, and 034 promptly developed this new piece (in the link above), and changed their Billet 044 Pump kit to include this new banjo fitting.

Now, you can TRY the hose (whether submersible or not), but there is a chance that the line will fail, and strand you on the side of the road (mine failed on the interstate threw the city. I was stuck underground in a tunnel with NO breakdown lane, waiting for a state trooper and a flatbead......I wouldn't wish this on anyone....).

Take my word for it.......do it right the first time, and use the stock hose

[Seerlah]

You didn't explain all that the first time around. I get it now.

But been at it for a good hour now and still can't get the basket out. Why in the world does Audi do this when engineering. I am sure like 3 little clips to hold down the basket could have done the job just as well. F*cking Audi.

[LEGO]

when i changed mine, i got a large screw driver, put it against the fins of the backet at an angle and kept whacking it with a mallet to get it to turn in the counter clockwise direction. Popped right out. Did the same to lock it in place. You can try that. Just have to work on al the fins though cause if you do it on only one, you mind end up breaking the fin. Hope this helps

[Seerlah]

I already got that off along with all the hoses and connections. Been trying to get the actual pump/basket out of the tank for over an hour, to no avail. I don't know what chasis you have, but the B5 A4 has it at a really weird angle. The B6 guys can use the method you explained because of placement of pump and access door for it, but not B5.

After getting really frustrated, I called my mechanic and he said he will swap it for $100. Used that price for comparison to the cost of the tool. I found the tool (Audi tool 3307) online for $52 before shipping (cheapest I have found so far, $125 being most expensive). I think I am just going to place everything back together, order the tool, and get it done next time around. At least I will also have the tool then, for when people need to borrow it.

Edit: Nevermind LEGO; Good call. I used a really long money wrench (the open end I put onto one of the open slots) and tapped at it with a rubber mallet till it got loose.

[leftovers]

Are you guys done hijacking my thread yet?

So, this is the fuel pump the previous owner put in. Can anyone answer my question about whether or not a check valve is needed and where I should put it?

Airtex E8294M
http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/de...0401&ppt=C0025

[Seerlah]

I really only see 2 places you can put it, if cutting any hose and not hard line. You could tap into the tank, on the feed line between the pump and top portion of the assembly. Or any of the rubber hoses once you get into the engine bay. And I already posted that the guy in the thread you previously linked said you don't need a check valve. That is who I picked up my 044 from.

You don't think the nipple itself on the pump for the factory pump is a check valve, do you?

Oh yeah, please pardon the thread jack that occured.

[leftovers]

Yeah, I read the part about not needing a check valve. However, if that is the case, what is my issue? I feel like people are looking at my in the parking lot, because they aren't sure if my car is going to start or not. I typically know that on the next crank it will, but it still seems a little silly.

[sweets4style]

stock pumps in general have a check valve already integrated into the pump. You will probably need no checkvalve if its an oem application. In general being the key word. If it is an 044 it comes with a check valve already. Most people swap it only because it is an odd thread and pitch size to find fittings for. But they do exist. Look outside the audi/vw crowd's sites and you will find many things from screw on fittings to banjos, to manifolds etc.

[Seerlah]

Yeah, I read the part about not needing a check valve. However, if that is the case, what is my issue? I feel like people are looking at my in the parking lot, because they aren't sure if my car is going to start or not. I typically know that on the next crank it will, but it still seems a little silly.

Maybe the generic replacement simply does not have one and does not flow enough to bring the fuel system up to proper pressure to turn her over as compared to a Bosch 044 or even the factory pump (using the 044 referance as the thread with information pertaining to needing or not needing one was in relation to that unit). But really, just having the system primed for a couple seconds should fix that issue if that be the case, so not quite sure.

Next time, prime the system for like 30+ seconds and see if it will turn over first try. Maybe kink in your line somewhere?

[lightdog555]

that happened to me and I had the purge valve changed and now my B5 starts up perfect

[Seerlah]

Having this issue now that I installed my 044. Going to try to swap out the n80 to see if that fixes my issue.

[leftovers]

I called Max @ 034 today. He was super helpful and very nice. He confirmed that the BMW check valve mounted as close as possible to the pump will help with the cranking issue and possibly make the 044 pumps run quieter. While I talking to him about where to get the part, I found this thread:

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...umps?styleid=8

This is the BMW part number: 16 14 9 068 988

Now I just need to find the cheapest place to get it.

[leftovers]

I picked up the BMW check valve from ECS when I bought a few other things. I ended up installing it last night. The car fired right up this morning when I got in it...and again after work. I'm super happy with it.

[Seerlah]

ECS PN, por favor

[leftovers]

It's the same as what I posted above: 16149068988. I just put that in the search box on ECS and it came right up:

http://www.ecstuning.com/Search/16149068988/ES37477/

Edit: Don't let the size of that one in the picture fool you. I was able to use the necessary bits and cut the assembly down to about 2-1/2". It was super easy to install.

[LEGO]

Where exactly did you install the check valve? Inside the tank or to the line coming from the fuel pump cover?

[leftovers]

Where exactly did you install the check valve? Inside the tank or to the line coming from the fuel pump cover?

I opened the fuel pump cover in the trunk and put it right at the outlet of the fuel pump. I disconnect the outlet line, put the check valve on the outlet of the fuel pump, and put the old outlet line on the end of the check valve. Done and done.

[walky_talky20]

Seerlah, from your photo it would appear that you already have a check valve right on the pump. I'm actually replacing the fuel pump (factory external unit) on my '88 90 quattro right now, so I've been learning about all the different fittings and what-have-you.

You'll notice on your pump there is a metal fitting that is screwed into it and sealed with a fairly thick copper crush washer. From that fitting protrudes a 12 mm shaft suitable for a banjo fitting (copper crush washers on either side of that guy), and finally at the end sits a "cap nut" which seals the whole business up.

Integral to this fitting is an internal check valve. Here is the best photo I could find of this type of fitting where you can actually barely see the internal spring (look through the banjo holes):



And a photo installed on the pump:


This is the exact type of check valve that is used on the factory pump on my KE-Jetronic (CIS-E) equipped Audi 90. This system actually pressurizes the fuel supply line to 6.5 bar (95 psi operating pressure, yikes!), which the check valve is supposed to maintain after the pump stops. Needless to say, I'll be using the "good" hose clamps!

I can't be sure that's what you've got there, your fittings could be "straight through" I suppose, with no check valve, but I think that is unlikely.

Now, as far as how well that type of check valve works? You got me. People seem pretty pleased with the BMW part, and I don't see the harm with additional check valves in the system if you're having troubles - other than possibly a flow issue if the valve is too restrictive.

[Seerlah]

I realised before that my 034 Bosch 044 unit has the check valve on it that you pictured. But the only time I don't have to crank her up twice to make her turn over is if the car has been driven prior (have not concluded time frame for her to turn over on first crank). It is morning time right now, and if I were to crank my car right now I would need to do it twice for her to turn over. I am going to order that BMW check valve and swap it in, because I def have some starting issues. Nothing major, just the system not being pressurised enough. If the relay actually stayed closed for a few seconds later after placing into the starting position, I am sure it would have enough fuel pressure in the feed system (rail) at that time. But it only stays closed for like 1-2 seconds. That's not long enough.