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  1. #1
    Senior Member Two Rings AforOuttie's Avatar
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    High flow exhaust manifold vs. OEM...which one?

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    I have a high flow exhaust manifold from ATP on my car right now and there's two studs that snapped off. So, i'm going back in to replace the studs/gaskets; my question is should I keep the high flow on or put back the stock one? When I replaced the stock one with the highflow I noticed my boost didn't spike as high (not a big drop off, just slightly noticeable). I was just curious if my car needed the back pressure of the stock one to keep the boost that I had...orr if the high flow one is better for overall HP? I'm not too familiar with the science behind all of this, so that's why I'm asking. All my mods are below in my sig.

    Thanks for any advice,

    -Charlie
    1998.5 A4 1.8T FWD
    GIAC PC-16 l Greddy Exhaust l Blitz Air Intake l 007 DV l FMIC l K04-15 l ATP High Flow Exhaust Manifold l and some cosmetic sh*t

  2. #2
    Veteran Member Four Rings Dan[FN]6262's Avatar
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    stripped out stroker E30 and 98 C230 in middle of a LS/TH400 swap
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    OEM FTW
    EFR | 7163
    268/260 cams

    I.E. Intake Manifold / 70mm
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  3. #3
    Stage 3 Forum Advertiser Four Rings 034Motorsport's Avatar
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    High Flow, will have higher flow, which will equal more power. Sure you can go too large with runner diameter and sacrifice velocity (required for turbos to work and respond well), but you are taking a step back. A well pushed K04 will still benefit from a higher flow manifold, although we aren't talking 20whp or anything.
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  4. #4
    Senior Member Two Rings
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    Jan 24 2010
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    melbourne australia

    What's with this back pressure nonsense again!
    96 A4 1.8TQ
    FRANKEN TURBO K03-073, 1 BAR CHIP, SUPERTECH VALVES, PORT N POLISH, JE PISTONS, SCAT RODS, 034 MANIFOLD & FMIC, FIDANZA FW & SOUTHBEND STG 3, BILSTEIN & H&R, 3IN EXHAUST, CUSTOM AIR BOX, APR DV, DBA SLOTTED, RED STUFF.

  5. #5
    Registered User Four Rings
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    Feb 08 2011
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    B5 A4 2 liter HTA3586r
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    Phoenix, Arizona area

    Quote Originally Posted by AforOuttie View Post
    I have a high flow exhaust manifold from ATP on my car right now and there's two studs that snapped off. So, i'm going back in to replace the studs/gaskets; my question is should I keep the high flow on or put back the stock one? When I replaced the stock one with the highflow I noticed my boost didn't spike as high (not a big drop off, just slightly noticeable). I was just curious if my car needed the back pressure of the stock one to keep the boost that I had...orr if the high flow one is better for overall HP? I'm not too familiar with the science behind all of this, so that's why I'm asking. All my mods are below in my sig.

    Thanks for any advice,

    -Charlie
    Are you making the same peak boost as you were before?

  6. #6
    Veteran Member Three Rings
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    Higher flow exhaust manifold will mean you can have more gas pass through at a lower velocity for the same pressure, what this translates to is more power (to a point) but slower spool, you are seeing this in the lower boost spike. with a PC16 file I dont know if you are benefiting from it or not, Max knows his shit though so if he thinks you are hes probably right.

    There is a lot of miss information around on back pressure, when they are actually talking about scavenging. you do not need back pressure, in an ideal world then the manifold would be a vacuum and just suck all of the exhaust out of the cylinders, but its not.
    First think of the humming into a pipe, the sound travels through the pipe in 'compressions' and 'extensions' of the air, kind of like this: |||| | | | | |||| close is 'compressed' air, far apart is 'extended' air. The same thing happens in an exhaust system, when a cylinder pushes out the exhaust then it creates a compression of exhaust gasses, when there is an intake stroke then there is an extension. Now from thermodynamics (well really from everyday experiences such as feeling the wind or using a hose) we know that pressure will always try to become even, eg wind flows from high pressure to low pressure to try and make everything the same pressure. So when designers make a manifold then they try to use this to create a slight vacuum in the cylinder, this 1) sucks the exhaust gasses out of the cylinder so that there is less work done by the piston to push them out (this uses power that now isnt going to the wheels) and 2) creates a small low pressure system in the cylinder compered to the intake so it sucks air/fuel into the cylinder (not important on a turbo/super engine as there is already a much lower pressure in the cylinder due to the intake being pressurized ie boost).
    what happens when a manifold has too smaller runners for the amount of exhaust gasses that have to pass through it is it increases the pressure in the exhaust manifold and consequently in the cylinders so the pistons have to do more work to push the exhaust gasses out of the cylinder meaning less power to the wheels. The up side to this is that now the exhaust gasses have to go faster to get the same volume out, think of putting you finger on the end of a hose, same amount of water comes out but its higher pressure so the turbo spools faster.
    to the opposite extreme if we use a manifold with far to bigger runners then we end up with the exhaust gas expands and cools down, this results in it not traveling as fast through the exhaust system, so slower spool but also, when the gas slows then it has to be forced down the pipes again as it is flowing slower, this time think if putting a hose into a bucket and expecting to get pressure out of the top of the bucket. (a side not is this is also why you should change to a test pipe not just bash out your cat) the cooler gas is now more dense and less energy it has so it will flow slower. somewhere in between is the perfect balance.

    for an example of the first look for the threads on here such as my HTA2868 wont get over 220whp and my GT2871 wont get over 235whp (although there is argument that some of that may be due to being a restrictive FMIC while this is probably correct (cant get exhaust out if you cant get air in) then some of it is also going to be because you cant get air in if you cant get exhaust out, they have too smaller exhaust systems, and that is all those systems will slow with that engine turbo combination.) for the second then have a look at race cars, they never exit straight off the block they always have at lest pipes to get the exhaust out away from the cylinders into the atmosphere, sometimes these are just straight on drag cars such as rails but are usually headers.

    The morel of the story is that this whole back pressure thing is a load of crap and that what you actually need is a system that will keep you exhaust gasses flowing with the pistons having to do the lest amount of work possible to push the exhaust gasses out of the combustion chambers. on the k04 then i doubt you will gain a noticeable amount from either stock or ATP high flow.

    I am by no means an expert on exhaust design, this is just what I understand to be true from the research I have done, and am happy argue the point and to be proved wrong. After all doing this just gives everyone a deeper understanding of what is going on.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Two Rings AforOuttie's Avatar
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    Thanks everyone for your input, I do have a much better understanding..assuming all is true (sounds logical anyway). However, I just killed 6 hrs of my day pulling all the shit off just to put it back on without being able to replace the broken studs. I tried an extractor set, penetrating freeze spray crap, tried a lock wrench, heat, nothing worked and now I'll probably have to take it somewhere to do it. Not happy.
    1998.5 A4 1.8T FWD
    GIAC PC-16 l Greddy Exhaust l Blitz Air Intake l 007 DV l FMIC l K04-15 l ATP High Flow Exhaust Manifold l and some cosmetic sh*t

  8. #8
    Veteran Member Four Rings Dan[FN]6262's Avatar
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    Sep 12 2008
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    My Garage
    stripped out stroker E30 and 98 C230 in middle of a LS/TH400 swap
    Location
    South Central PA

    did you get a big ass hammer and hit it while torching it until it glows, then put the vise grips on it and twisting it out? always works like a charm for me, on the REALLY stubborn shit.
    EFR | 7163
    268/260 cams

    I.E. Intake Manifold / 70mm
    Maestro [Dan Shank Super Tune™]

    BoostManager+
    Meth Head


  9. #9
    Veteran Member Three Rings
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    Apr 22 2009
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    yeah get the gas on it then tip water on it, heat then cold should brake it off. otherwise spray shit loads CRC 556 or what ever you use on it every couple hours for a day then try again plus hitting it with a hammer will make you feel better and might help. the other option, which is a bit dodge is to weld a steel pipe to one and then use that to turn it. make sure its a good weld though or it will just brake.

  10. #10
    Veteran Member Four Rings ZimbutheMonkey's Avatar
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    Dynamite, just a few tweaks on what you've said. You're pretty much correct on the whole scavenging thing. Being able to create a slight vacuum as the piston finishes the exhaust stroke helps draw the next intake stroke in. However this is really only relevent on naturally aspirated engines. While there is a little scavenging that may go on in a forced induciton engine, it's pretty minimal due to the small amount of valve overlap that a turbocharged engine has and because of the turbine.

    Reason being is that since you have positive pressure in the intake (vis a vis vacuum in an N/A application), any time that the exhaust valves are open with the intakes pushing air in, means that you have a possibility of pushing your intake charge out the exhaust opening.

    Also, the presence of the turbine makes it difficult if not impossible to scavenge exhaust gases by virtue of it building up pressure in front of it. In essence, it's creating positive pressure on the outside of the exhaust valves. That's also why you don't have much overlap on turbo engines. If the pressure is high enough (i.e. small turbine housing) you run the risk of the exhaust gas being pushed back into the cylinder as the piston falls. This is known as a reversion.

    Anyway, since the GF wants me to come to bed, this is the coles notes version. If anyone has any additions to this please feel free to add them.

  11. #11
    Veteran Member Three Rings
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    Old thread bump, I installed CTS kentic manifold, now I have a 4 psi boost pressure loss and the car isn't as torquey... I'm debating whether a mbc would help here or not. I had it installed before, but the part throttle driveablility was lost. It seemed like all boost or nothing.
    Last edited by B5A4coastie; 04-21-2014 at 02:18 PM.
    2005.5 A4 Avant; TSI cam follower conversion. Build Thread

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  12. #12
    Established Member Two Rings thrilos5's Avatar
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    Back from the dead
    I just installed a hi flow manifold and lost just about all my low end driveability and part throttle response also down to 1.1 bar from 1.4 bar

  13. #13
    Veteran Member Four Rings
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    98 Civic CX Hatch, 2012 CBR250R
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    I have the frankenturbo mani on my stock ko3s and I feel it pulls longer up top.

  14. #14
    Established Member Two Rings thrilos5's Avatar
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    How does it feels at low end though?

  15. #15
    Veteran Member Four Rings
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    98 Civic CX Hatch, 2012 CBR250R
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    It doesn't feel any worse then the stock manifold. Are you tuned?

  16. #16
    Established Member Two Rings thrilos5's Avatar
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    Yes tuned
    GT28rs eliminator, 630cc injectors, 76mm maf, 70mm exhaust with 100cell HJS cat, greddy intercooler

  17. #17
    Veteran Member Four Rings
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    Maybe I don't feel any low end loss because I still have my stock turbo.

  18. #18
    Established Member Two Rings thrilos5's Avatar
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    Yeah maybe

  19. #19
    Veteran Member Four Rings nynoah's Avatar
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    01.5 A4 avant Past cars: 95 S6, 85 Golf II VR6, 2 sciroccos, 92 Corrado VR6, 86 Euro BMW 535 Alpina
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    I ran a Franken Turbo with my GTRS elim when I had it. Same exact setup as you. The Franken Turbo Manifold is GREAT. You really should not be sacrificing much down low. But you will gain a lot more up top and the head will run cooler than with a stock manifold.
    2001.5 black on black avant 5spd, EFR 6758, Pag Parts band manifold, Vibrant GESI High flow CAT, 2.0L 06A, IE intake manifold, built AEB head, 1000cc Boosted Euro Tune, bosch 044, Ringer Racing stage 3 hybrid Organic/Cerametalic 240mm clutch, S4 interior upgrade, full S4 brakes front and rear with lines, 17in OZ Racing Ultraleggera, 034 HD suspension arms, Stern soft mounts, mirimoto bixenon etc. http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...s-Build-thread

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