A3 TDI - Quattro = >:(

[boy412]

I really don't belong here in the A3 forums...but was just perusing the 2011 full-line catalog that AoA just sent me in the mail (in an anti-static envelope...which is sort of weird, but whatever). Why the f'ing Hell can't you get an A3 with the TDI motor and Quattro?



Their diesel technology is so good...I wonder why they would omit one of the best options? Seems like a step backwards to me. I can deal with the fact they don't offer a manual gearbox...but no Quattro?

WTF AoA?

[/rant]

[audifirst]

its all about marketing and costs involved, when especially the market for this size of car is small, it would of be nice to have TDI and quattro in A3 but then you will loose the fuel economy what everyone at this time is after .. certifying TDI with AWD is too costly for Audi, especially for North American market who has different emissions then everyone else in the world.. if you do search you will find similar topics, Audi will not do it , A6 and then A4 suppose to get 3.0 tdi with quattro but this idea quiet down or got postponed to future..

[henry22]

My brother is dealing with that issue right now. He really wants manual and quattro but no dice. Its weird. All three of the coolest features (TDI, quattro, and manual) are all mutually exclusive. Doesnt make much sense.

[windsorblue]

Probably a few things going on here.

1. The FWD TDI drive-trains are already certified for use in VW's Golf, Jetta, and Sortwagen; this saves some money on a car that might be barely profitable to begin with.

2. The added drag/weight of the quattro drive-train would reduce the EPA fuel economy rating, thus reducing sales.

3. The A3 is due for a major update, so the FWD TDI model is a cost-effective way to introduce the NA entry level premium market to the technology.

4. The current 2.0l TDI engine is just barely 50 state compliant without the use of urea injection. Adding the weight and drag of quattro may require use of urea injection to achieve 50 state compliance, something that would add cost to an already costly and slow-selling small car. VW has avoided use of the TDI in the Tiguan partially for this reason.


The A4 should be getting TDI and quattro on our shores within the next few model years.

[rollerton]

Yeah..strange how is makes perfect sense for them to sell the TDI / quattro combo in EVERY other market. Including Canada, which is 100 miles away?
Right.
The economics argument makes no sense really. It would cost them about $1 million total for paperwork and certification to sell a TDI AWD model of any kind. Not much for a manufacturer of that size. The engine and drivetrain and chassis are all already mass produced and sold in the U.S market- they just have to put them together and "test" .
It's a cop-out, and total B.S from Audi. Nobody really knows why they won't sell them, because the A3 sells well enough in the US to justify it, and look at the sales and re-sale values on TDI VW: ridiculous- you cant get a 10 year old TDI golf for less than $10k. The market for the TDI exists also.
I personally think it has to do with making concessions to other markets to keep sales up, combined with Audi attempting to maintain themselves as a certain style/ status symbol.
They're missing the boat on this one though.

[ahcow]

Yeah..strange how is makes perfect sense for them to sell the TDI / quattro combo in EVERY other market. Including Canada, which is 100 miles away?
Right.
The economics argument makes no sense really. It would cost them about $1 million total for paperwork and certification to sell a TDI AWD model of any kind. Not much for a manufacturer of that size. The engine and drivetrain and chassis are all already mass produced and sold in the U.S market- they just have to put them together and "test" .
It's a cop-out, and total B.S from Audi. Nobody really knows why they won't sell them, because the A3 sells well enough in the US to justify it, and look at the sales and re-sale values on TDI VW: ridiculous- you cant get a 10 year old TDI golf for less than $10k. The market for the TDI exists also.
I personally think it has to do with making concessions to other markets to keep sales up, combined with Audi attempting to maintain themselves as a certain style/ status symbol.
They're missing the boat on this one though.

Uh, it's not, and never have been.

[boy412]

I've been a huge proponent of diesel for a LONG time now. Europe has had diesel variants of practically everything for ages now...and with the fuel prices inflating the way they are I figured by now there would be more of a warmer reception to diesel tech. For the longest time Americans did not (and maybe still don't) understand diesel technology and have a lot of misconceptions about it (dirty, noisy, underpowered, etc).

How much of a drain on the fuel economy would there be if they added Quattro? I'd be surprised if it was really that significant. As a potential customer I'd still buy one, regardless of a small dent in the MPG. Its a feature I've grown to love, respect, and depend on with my current ride (B6 A4 1.8TQM Avant). I waited to buy this car until Audi made the car I wanted...and I guess I'll be waiting a bit longer for them to make the next car I want. Unless I move to Europe.



Interesting comment about the urea/carbamide injection. I was not aware of that. AoA should just do it...like Mercedes Benz has already done with their BlueTec motors (back in 2007).

Interesting thread...

[LWNY]

The A3 TDI is more of a marketing tool for Audi for them to show that they are in the green movement also. But in reality, there will be practically no A3 TDI sales. Adding Quattro will just make them be able to boast the car's fuel efficiency less, plus they probably thought TDI = fuel miser people, not bahn burner or a weekend at the chalet.

[boy412]

You are probably right...which is unfortunate as there is SOOO much potential for that car! I've already seen some impressive hp gains from several tuners, even incorporating water/meth. In fact, the guy that owns Snow Performance drives a VW Golf TDI.

:)

[KnockKnock]

I'm a diesel fan too, but recognize that Europe has subsidized diesel cars for decades, so it makes sense for suppliers to feed that created demand. I think the market is working itself out with high gas prices, so that's why the diesel demand is growing in the USA.

To an earlier post, Audi just doesn't sell that many A3's in North America. I think they move about 8000 on a good year. Half of those are diesels, so 4000. If they sold a Quattro, maybe 1/4 would buy it, so 1000. Assuming they NET about $2000 per car, that gives them $2M for sales of this variant in North America. So the cost of Federalizing it would take a large percentage of their profits - hence, the decision not to do so. A company has to make a profit. You can see that if they sold 10K of these diesels, it instantly becomes profitable.

Perhaps the next model will distinguish itself from VW which is aiming down-market with the Jetta/Golf, and go upmarket a little bit. If they bring a diesel that has 170-200hp, then they'll more likely need Quattro to handle the torque, and that would be one awesome little diesel. I think we're lucky we even got the current TDI, and that was on the heels of VW's federalizing the Golf/Jetta.

More likely, diesel+quattro will work its way down from the current SUV market into the A6 first. Then the 2015 B9 A4, simply due to volume. We'll probably be left in FWD TDI land, riding on the coat tails of VW for some time yet.

[Sabalo]

Sorry this has to be my first post, but i had to chime in even though I know it will fall on deaf ears @ AUDI. But, I have been wondering the same thing. Been looking at putting the gas guzzling pick-up to pasture with 200K miles on it. So I want the most fuel efficiency I can get....without going to hybrid/electric. Living in Montana, I also want the best/safest traction I can get during our hairy winters up here. I guess the FWD would do alright, but to me an Audi just isn't an Audi without quattro. With no quattro available, why should I spend the extra $10K or so for the Audi over the VW TDI? Yeah, I know they look and feel better, but they're the same engine/tranny.

On a side note, I was comparing AWD Subaru's and wow....are they really worth $30K-$40K, with that mpg? C'mon subaru, you're not that special. Are you?

One more question....what about tuning a 2.0? What's the best possible mpg from an aftermarket chip?

[boy412]

I think we're lucky we even got the current TDI, and that was on the heels of VW's federalizing the Golf/Jetta.

You are right...beggars can't be choosers. But it still pisses me off! I want what I want...and they almost did it. Not sure I want to wait until 2015 (or later).

Your point about the subsidization of diesel cars in Europe is well-taken.

I guess the FWD would do alright, but to me an Audi just isn't an Audi without quattro.

My sentiments exactly. Don't know how various tunes would affect MPG. On the petrol side of the coin the MPG can actually get better...when driven "normally". I think even the lofty MTM writes tunes for some of the diesel cars in Europe. If you're really interested it might be worth an e-mail or phone call to your nearest Unitronics/Revo/APR shop (in that order IMO).

[audifirst]

if you go to tdiclub.com there is plenty of information on this topic, there is section for those who convert their gasoline cars to TDI, it was done already to Audi A4, allroad, vw passat , TT, vw golf AWD TDI using 1.9tdi,
if you go to vwvortex there is plenty people who converted golf to AWD , imported floors, body panels, engines, transmission , suspensions, what needs to be done if you really want to have unique vehicle

our north american market is too strict too many levels of BS , there were people who imported B5 RS4 Avant paid 25k for used car , by the time they got certified , and whatnot it cost them close to 80k , and they were selling for 125k , so conversion is probably cheaper option..

[rollerton]

Uh, it's not, and never have been.

They don't sell quattro/ TDI A3's in Canada? Then somebody is importing them because I've personally seen them for sale. My father in law was going to buy one until he found out he couldn't import it.
A doctor I work with has looked at a couple, he has Canadian citizenship and his mother has an address in Canada he will probably register it to if he buys...and I saw one in Seattle a little while back, had Canada plates on it.

[boy412]

Heh heh...there is a totally legit B5 RS4 Avant lurking around here in Maryland. I've met the owner and got a real good look at it. Drool...

The shop that does all the work on my car (that I can't do) also did a really nice TDI swap into a Mk I TT. Talk about a double take when I walked past it at H20! Now that TT is terrorizing the streets of Baltimore with a turbocharged, 3.2L VR6 motor under the bonnet.

I know you can make practically whatever you want if you have deep enough pockets. If I had such pockets I would not be looking at A3's that's for damn sure! An Audi with no option for Quattro is nothing more than an expensive VW (and I'm not knocking VW's...). If the VAG can make TDI Jetta's, Golf's, etc...then giving the American market access to TDI powered Audi's (WITH QUATTRO) should be a relatively simple matter.

Lastly...if I had previously mentioned "deep pockets" I'd find myself a road legal version of the TDI-powered R18.

[tpliquid]

They don't sell quattro/ TDI A3's in Canada? Then somebody is importing them because I've personally seen them for sale. My father in law was going to buy one until he found out he couldn't import it.
A doctor I work with has looked at a couple, he has Canadian citizenship and his mother has an address in Canada he will probably register it to if he buys...and I saw one in Seattle a little while back, had Canada plates on it.

nope

http://models.audi.ca/en/a3tdi/specifications

fwd ONLY

[audifirst]

Heh heh...there is a totally legit B5 RS4 Avant lurking around here in Maryland. I've met the owner and got a real good look at it. Drool...

The shop that does all the work on my car (that I can't do) also did a really nice TDI swap into a Mk I TT. Talk about a double take when I walked past it at H20! Now that TT is terrorizing the streets of Baltimore with a turbocharged, 3.2L VR6 motor under the bonnet.

I know you can make practically whatever you want if you have deep enough pockets. If I had such pockets I would not be looking at A3's that's for damn sure! An Audi with no option for Quattro is nothing more than an expensive VW (and I'm not knocking VW's...). If the VAG can make TDI Jetta's, Golf's, etc...then giving the American market access to TDI powered Audi's (WITH QUATTRO) should be a relatively simple matter.

Lastly...if I had previously mentioned "deep pockets" I'd find myself a road legal version of the TDI-powered R18.

I know you can do it , be the first one do the conversion get A3 2.0t or 3.2 quattro you will save money on body, then just get engine from vw passat 2.0 tdi or newer jetta 2.0 tdi, and get 6-speed tranny

[audifirst]

They don't sell quattro/ TDI A3's in Canada? Then somebody is importing them because I've personally seen them for sale. My father in law was going to buy one until he found out he couldn't import it.
A doctor I work with has looked at a couple, he has Canadian citizenship and his mother has an address in Canada he will probably register it to if he buys...and I saw one in Seattle a little while back, had Canada plates on it.

100% sure we don't have A3 tdi quattro maybe A3 2.0t quattro got mistaken, we have what USA gets

[everso]

hello everyone.

i was chatting with Johan (President of Audi North America) about this very topic-**-and what he basically said is that the TDI quattro that is sold in Europe uses a different floorplan due to the alterations they have to make to allow the TDI and quattro systems to be integrated into the structure of the car.

For the US market, since TDI is still an emerging technology for Audi-**-they catered the TDI towards California emissions standards---and in that market, quattro was not a priority. Ideally it seems they would have wanted to bring a TDI quattro-**--HOWEVER bringing it to the market in the US would mean that they would have had to homologate an entire other floorplan for the car--which means crash testing, etc. which costs in the millions.

[henry22]

But why isnt manual and quattro offered on gasoline engines? That makes no sense whatsoever.

[audifirst]

hello everyone.

i was chatting with Johan (President of Audi North America) about this very topic-**-and what he basically said is that the TDI quattro that is sold in Europe uses a different floorplan due to the alterations they have to make to allow the TDI and quattro systems to be integrated into the structure of the car.

For the US market, since TDI is still an emerging technology for Audi-**-they catered the TDI towards California emissions standards---and in that market, quattro was not a priority. Ideally it seems they would have wanted to bring a TDI quattro-**--HOWEVER bringing it to the market in the US would mean that they would have had to homologate an entire other floorplan for the car--which means crash testing, etc. which costs in the millions.

the floor plan from tdi quattro is identical to gasoline quattro offered in North America, Audi will not bring tdi quattro into A3 because of marketing, additional costs and emission compliance ,

[audifirst]

But why isnt manual and quattro offered on gasoline engines? That makes no sense whatsoever.

someone in marketing believes that manual and quattro in A3 doesn't belong in North America

[everso]

the floor plan from tdi quattro is identical to gasoline quattro offered in North America, Audi will not bring tdi quattro into A3 because of marketing, additional costs and emission compliance ,

not quite. so to get a TDI quattro to work, there is a reduction in fuel economy and a weight increase which occurs....to surmount this, Audi would be forced to add a urea injection to the car, which changes the floorpan. I have the whole explanation straight from the president of Audi regarding this matter....

[audifirst]

not quite. so to get a TDI quattro to work, there is a reduction in fuel economy and a weight increase which occurs....to surmount this, Audi would be forced to add a urea injection to the car, which changes the floorpan. I have the whole explanation straight from the president of Audi regarding this matter....

the floor plan is the same, there was comparison done on German forum 2010 A3 2.0 T Quattro to 2010 A3 2.0 tdi qauttro , guy was looking to convert gasoline to diesel and when they looked underneath identical floor plan, the little tank that is installed on TDI there is a room for it in gasoline car,

If north america change the emissions to what europe is using we would have pretty much every model available with diesels in it

[everso]

the floor plan is the same, there was comparison done on German forum 2010 A3 2.0 T Quattro to 2010 A3 2.0 tdi qauttro , guy was looking to convert gasoline to diesel and when they looked underneath identical floor plan, the little tank that is installed on TDI there is a room for it in gasoline car,

If north america change the emissions to what europe is using we would have pretty much every model available with diesels in it

the car MUST be crash tested again, the car must pass full certification with even the slightest changes.....it's not really about what a german forum says, it's what the DOT says. I trust the president of Audi to know what he's talking about, mate.....the European TDI is different than the US spec TDI, as the US spec TDI has been focused towards California emissions standards...

engineering a car, and 'looking' at the underside of a car are two entirely different things...especially when there are different versions of different cars being discussed.

[audifirst]

the car MUST be crash tested again, the car must pass full certification with even the slightest changes.....it's not really about what a german forum says, it's what the DOT says. I trust the president of Audi to know what he's talking about, mate.....the European TDI is different than the US spec TDI, as the US spec TDI has been focused towards California emissions standards...

engineering a car, and 'looking' at the underside of a car are two entirely different things...especially when there are different versions of different cars being discussed.

of course crash testing and so is normal, part of getting car certify, best person talk to is the engineer who knows much better then president of Audi who is there to promote the car and talk from the cheat sheets about the vehicle,, :)
otherwise if someone wanted to convert A3 2.0t quattro to diesel it is doable , it has been done

[everso]

of course crash testing and so is normal, part of getting car certify, best person talk to is the engineer who knows much better then president of Audi who is there to promote the car and talk from the cheat sheets about the vehicle,, :)
otherwise if someone wanted to convert A3 2.0t quattro to diesel it is doable , it has been done

i'm talking about the official concerns for a company who is going to sell a car with a different engine + drivetrain....they are two entirely different things and need to be considered as such.

for you to think that ANY changes can be made without having to spend millions in re-certification isn't true....and is simply not worth the effort in a car which is towards the end of its life cycle. Business is different than what we desire, y'know ;)

[boy412]

Stirred up quite the hornet's nest...didn't I?

Well...maybe someone at AoA is listening and now knows there are a few of us who would like to see a Quattro/TDI A3 sometime before 2020.

[everso]

Stirred up quite the hornet's nest...didn't I?

Well...maybe someone at AoA is listening and now knows there are a few of us who would like to see a Quattro/TDI A3 sometime before 2020.

it will likely come in the form of the next A3, which will arrive to the US in late 2013/early 2014.

[sssptbk]

Two great reasons will TDI and Quattro will not be mated (and Manual transmission-more below):
1.

I'm a diesel fan too, but recognize that Europe has subsidized diesel cars for decades, so it makes sense for suppliers to feed that created demand. I think the market is working itself out with high gas prices, so that's why the diesel demand is growing in the USA.

To an earlier post, Audi just doesn't sell that many A3's in North America. I think they move about 8000 on a good year. Half of those are diesels, so 4000. If they sold a Quattro, maybe 1/4 would buy it, so 1000. Assuming they NET about $2000 per car, that gives them $2M for sales of this variant in North America. So the cost of Federalizing it would take a large percentage of their profits - hence, the decision not to do so. A company has to make a profit. You can see that if they sold 10K of these diesels, it instantly becomes profitable.

Perhaps the next model will distinguish itself from VW which is aiming down-market with the Jetta/Golf, and go upmarket a little bit. If they bring a diesel that has 170-200hp, then they'll more likely need Quattro to handle the torque, and that would be one awesome little diesel. I think we're lucky we even got the current TDI, and that was on the heels of VW's federalizing the Golf/Jetta.

More likely, diesel+quattro will work its way down from the current SUV market into the A6 first. Then the 2015 B9 A4, simply due to volume. We'll probably be left in FWD TDI land, riding on the coat tails of VW for some time yet.

2.

the car MUST be crash tested again, the car must pass full certification with even the slightest changes.....it's not really about what a german forum says, it's what the DOT says. I trust the president of Audi to know what he's talking about, mate.....the European TDI is different than the US spec TDI, as the US spec TDI has been focused towards California emissions standards...

engineering a car, and 'looking' at the underside of a car are two entirely different things...especially when there are different versions of different cars being discussed.

3. Diesel costs => $0.25 per gallon more than Premium/Super. I could afford it, but would I want too?

4. Demographics - Audi wants to sell cars to the masses and nobody likes hatchbacks, except the few. If I made more money, would I buy a A3 TDI Quattro Auto/Manual or would I buy a Porsche GT3? How many people know how or actually drive manuals (see #1-ref. profitability).

If Audi would come out with an A3 with TDI/Quattro/Manual in the future would I buy it? That depends if I can afford something better, meh . . . .

[IndianDrives]

it's about marketing and cost, especially when the market for this size car is small, it will be nice to have TDI quattro and the A3, but you will lose fuel economy, all this is after .. Certification with TDI AWD is too expensive for Audi, especially for the North American market that has different problems, then everyone in the world.

[gettysburg]

The A3 TDI is more of a marketing tool for Audi for them to show that they are in the green movement also. But in reality, there will be practically no A3 TDI sales.

Not true A3 TDI makes up over 50% of all A3 sold in U.S. >> Click Link <<

[LWNY]

Not true A3 TDI makes up over 50% of all A3 sold in U.S. >> Click Link <<

yeah, but how many A3's do they sell? Roughly on par with the A8's.

[palewhitemale]

3. Diesel costs => $0.25 per gallon more than Premium/Super. I could afford it, but would I want too?

That's incorrect. Diesel is pinned to within 10 cents of super in most of the country. Your diesel fuel cost argument only works if the gas vehicle you compare it to runs on 87. I ran the numbers to sort this out when my mother was looking at whether or not to get a TDI Q7.

[LateraLex]

Informative thread, if not depressing. I would like an A3 to be my next car, but quattro is must-have up in the northeast... but not sure if giving up manual and diesel is worth it

[everso]

Informative thread, if not depressing. I would like an A3 to be my next car, but quattro is must-have up in the northeast... but not sure if giving up manual and diesel is worth it

DSG is amazing....never once have i thought "oh, i wish this car had a manual"......it's a ton of fun.

that being said, i do STILL have my TT which has a 6sp manual....so if i ever feel like rowing gears, i just get into that...

[Mc Suly]

Do a swap

[A3 Andy]

Anyone know...

What does it take to do this swap:

Pulled: 2.0 TDI engine came out of a Jetta or A3 TDI (2009).

Put in: 2009 A3 quattro (had 2.0T gas engine that was removed)

I'd like to know the specific requirements please.


PS: One additional thing... Can the transmission from the 2.0T Quattro (automatic) be fitted to the tdi motor if given a "flash" to be set up to run properly with
theTDI RPMs, etc?

Thank you,
A

[Barvel]

Good luck with this. I was considering getting a TDi DSG Quattro setup from a UK salvage yard. But after cost of shipping...

[sssptbk]

Lost mpg's was mentioned earlier in this thread. I went from a fsi 2.0T Fwd to a Tfsi 2.0T Quattro and the mpg difference, for me, is next to nothing. Point 6 mpg with Quattro (28.437mpg, 76k miles driven-with the Fsi 2.0T Fwd; 27.813mpg, 34k miles driven-with the Tfsi 2.0T Quattro).

Would Quattro mated to the TDI have that great of an effect? Probably (will finish thought later, go to go)