Seafoam spray for the carbon monster?!

[zachf88]

Seafoam released a new spray with a hose that goes into the throttle body. This reminds me of the BG intake cleaner/apparatus, but a bit cheaper/accessible and easier. Do you guys think it'll help get some of that carbon off the valves?

http://www.seafoamsales.com/sea-foam-spray.html

[NY07RS4]

If I had to guess I'd say this product may help prolong the intervals between manual scrubbings at best. Maybe it will keep the build-up on the valves a bit softer or even prevent some additional build up. In the end I don't think it is a problem solver and the CB will still be present on the valves. Just my opinion.

[zachf88]

If I had to guess I'd say this product may help prolong the intervals between manual scrubbings at best. Maybe it will keep the build-up on the valves a bit softer or even prevent some additional build up. In the end I don't think it is a problem solver and the CB will still be present on the valves. Just my opinion.

oh, sorry, forgot to mention. I would use in between cleanings.

[rs4 tony]

If I had to guess I'd say this product may help prolong the intervals between manual scrubbings at best. Maybe it will keep the build-up on the valves a bit softer or even prevent some additional build up. In the end I don't think it is a problem solver and the CB will still be present on the valves. Just my opinion.

my .02 cents..... I think it will prevent some from building up if you just recently got a carbon cleaning, maybe getting the softened area's where they missed. . I shall try this when my motor is real hot before my next oil change in 3k miles.

[RAudi Driver]

I wouldn't use it on my car as I'd be afraid that the seafoam would dislodge some of the carbon particles and put them right into the combustion chamber.

[exbimmer]

You do realize what goes into the combustion chamber normally, or where those carbon particles would end up if they didn't get built up on the valves...right?

[karsty]

You do realize what goes into the combustion chamber normally, or where those carbon particles would end up if they didn't get built up on the valves...right?

Yes, in very small amounts though. I think RAaudi is referring to larger chunks of carbon buildup dislodging and entering into the combustion chamber, and possibly doing damage.

[Mr Hyde]

Don't think it would hurt. My RS has a vacuum port on the back of the manifold in the area of oil filter under the CF cover. I plan on sucking in some sea foam through that before every oil change. I think that will do at least an equivalent job, and if done routinely, I'm not so worried about breaking off large chunks of anything.

If your car doesn't gave that port, this seems like a great option.

[zachf88]

Don't think it would hurt. My RS has a vacuum port on the back of the manifold in the area of oil filter under the CF cover. I plan on sucking in some sea foam through that before every oil change. I think that will do at least an equivalent job, and if done routinely, I'm not so worried about breaking off large chunks of anything.

If your car doesn't gave that port, this seems like a great option.

Did you add this port? or is it OEM?

[Mr Hyde]

Did you add this port? or is it OEM?

It is OEM, but was only present on early 07 cars. If you pull off the carbon fiber piece that covers the oil filter, if you have one it will be right there behind the manifold. Not at home today, but will take a pic when I get back.

[Krys-RS4]

It is OEM, but was only present on early 07 cars. If you pull off the carbon fiber piece that covers the oil filter, if you have one it will be right there behind the manifold. Not at home today, but will take a pic when I get back.

Please do, I have a early 07 model and I am wondering if I have it :)

[RAudi Driver]

Yes, in very small amounts though. I think RAaudi is referring to larger chunks of carbon buildup dislodging and entering into the combustion chamber, and possibly doing damage.

Exactly!

To the nay sayers, do what you want to your car.

[jalas]

Don't waste your time. Doesn't do anything. I tried on my car after cleaning CB and next owner still found lots of CB 10 months later.

[karsty]

Don't waste your time. Doesn't do anything. I tried on my car after cleaning CB and next owner still found lots of CB 10 months later.

CB will be dependant on miles driven and how the car is driven, not necessarily time. How many miles were put on the car between when you did the CB and when the new owner checked it?

[Car_Girl]

I thought I read on one of the carbon threads here at the zine, that part of the problem is due to excessive oil coming back into the air intake via the EGR so theoretically since some engines burn more oil than others and there could be more being recirculating, some engines would benefit more than others from the seafoam preventative maintenance measures some are suggesting here. Additionally, it would also follow that adding a device which has been referred to also at the zine as a Catch Can which you can see here in the photos: http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...tation-thread? is supposed to prevent excessive unburned oils from entering back into the air intake and strolling by the hot valves where there is no fuel with detergents to clean the valves as the air/fuel mixture enters each cylinder for combustion due to the design of the FSI engines of the vehicle family we're talking about.

So my question is this. If the root cause is hot oil simmering on the valves due to oil re-entering through the EGR system, why aren't people spending more time on preventing the root cause than attacking the results of the problem (the carbon build-up)? This truly is an innocent question since I'm still learning about the problem in general. Maybe the Catch Can isn't all it's cracked up to be? All I know is that there are some who have severe problems and others who claim and in fact, are adamantly against even admitting there might be a problem in some of the threads here. I'd just like to know what other views are on this issue. So back to the topic at hand which is seafoam and attacking the carbon monster. since seafoam only attacks the carbon AFTER the build-up occurs, if there's away to help prevent it from happening or even slow its progression, I figure it's worth learning more about.

[noznab]

I thought I read on one of the carbon threads here at the zine, that part of the problem is due to excessive oil coming back into the air intake via the EGR so theoretically since some engines burn more oil than others and there could be more being recirculating, some engines would benefit more than others from the seafoam preventative maintenance measures some are suggesting here. Additionally, it would also follow that adding a device which has been referred to also at the zine as a Catch Can which you can see here in the photos: http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...tation-thread? is supposed to prevent excessive unburned oils from entering back into the air intake and strolling by the hot valves where there is no fuel with detergents to clean the valves as the air/fuel mixture enters each cylinder for combustion due to the design of the FSI engines of the vehicle family we're talking about.

So my question is this. If the root cause is hot oil simmering on the valves due to oil re-entering through the EGR system, why aren't people spending more time on preventing the root cause than attacking the results of the problem (the carbon build-up)? This truly is an innocent question since I'm still learning about the problem in general. Maybe the Catch Can isn't all it's cracked up to be? All I know is that there are some who have severe problems and others who claim and in fact, are adamantly against even admitting there might be a problem in some of the threads here. I'd just like to know what other views are on this issue. So back to the topic at hand which is seafoam and attacking the carbon monster. since seafoam only attacks the carbon AFTER the build-up occurs, if there's away to help prevent it from happening or even slow its progression, I figure it's worth learning more about.

People have run a catch can--it doesn't help. Some have tried meth injection + catch can--nothing. However, iirc the people who were running meth had the system set to spray after a certain RPM. To know for sure we'd need someone to run a catch can + meth that's constantly spraying.

[titanium08]

Last time I spoke to AOA about it, they said they are "working on the cause of the problem"...why don't they just recall all of them and step up.
Had my carbon cleaned by a dealer under warranty a few months ago due to a CEL code, the next few weeks the car felt new again!
After a few months and 2500k later, it feels sluggish again. I have read on other threads that it comes back as early as 3-4k...WTF!

DO NOT WASTE YOUR MONEY ON INTAKE CLEANERS...I wasted 200 bucks for nothing.

[Car_Girl]

What else could be causing the build-up? Could it be the fuel additives (MBTEs) that are added to winter blend fuels that adds to the problem? I read on bimmer threads when I had a cold start problem long ago, that there can be a waxy build-up on intake valves due to heat cycles and MBTEs added to certain fuel blends that don't have high quality detergents. There's only one fuel that BMW recommends you run in the M cars and it's Shell. I thought what a crock of poo when the dealer told me this but on all counts, I can vouch for the fact that with the 2nd bimmer I had, running on Shell didn't give me any problems. If Shell wasn't available, I went with Mobile but to stray from either made me really nervous. It seems seafoam though, isn't so good for the downstream parts of the engine / exhaust system so I'd be leery about doing it too often. O2 sensors and cats don't like stuff that isn't designed to be burned through the system by the average consumer so I wonder what type of issues a person could end up with if used too frequently.

We just can't win on this one, eh?

[koolade9]

People have hashed over this for the last couple years...The current solution:

Take the IM off and clean the valves.

[noznab]

What else could be causing the build-up? Could it be the fuel additives (MBTEs) that are added to winter blend fuels that adds to the problem? I read on bimmer threads when I had a cold start problem long ago, that there can be a waxy build-up on intake valves due to heat cycles and MBTEs added to certain fuel blends that don't have high quality detergents. There's only one fuel that BMW recommends you run in the M cars and it's Shell. I thought what a crock of poo when the dealer told me this but on all counts, I can vouch for the fact that with the 2nd bimmer I had, running on Shell didn't give me any problems. If Shell wasn't available, I went with Mobile but to stray from either made me really nervous. It seems seafoam though, isn't so good for the downstream parts of the engine / exhaust system so I'd be leery about doing it too often. O2 sensors and cats don't like stuff that isn't designed to be burned through the system by the average consumer so I wonder what type of issues a person could end up with if used too frequently.

We just can't win on this one, eh?

It has nothing to do with detergents, the system is just poorly designed

[Car_Girl]

My comment on detergents was applicable to the non FSI designed engines where a spray of fuel hits the intake valves and is able to clean them as part of the IC engine design. FSI doesn't have fuel spraying onto the valves, so you're right, the detergents don't matter so much where valve deposits are concerned since the fuel isn't spraying on them.

[noznab]

I know... But the FSI system is poorly designed in that blowby gasses and recirculated exhaust gas comes into contact with the intake valves. Even if the system has just been cleaned low volatility oil and fuel particles adhere to the valves creating a sticky surface which more soot particles adhere to. The soot that adheres to the valves is what forms a hard "crust" making cleaning a PITA. Here's more on it if you're interested:

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...27#post5735227

http://www.google.com/patents?id=fLI...page&q&f=false

[NoTec]

There is no Audi solution for this problem available to the public. As stated by others, the only way to deal with it is to clean the surfaces affected manually.

The blow-by and egr/pcv system is not soley to blame. There have been RS4 owners who have completely removed/bypassed those systems.

The valve guides by design allow oil to seep onto the valves. Audi claims to have had a solution from the beginning, but could not integrate it for emissions reasons.

BMW is also suffering from this issue in the DI Mini engines. I hear that they pull the head when those cars come in. Some 335i and xi owners have been affected also, but those cars are so quick regardless, it doesnt bother the owners unless a cel light is triggered from excessive buildup.

I've read that Lexus gets around this issue by using separate fuel injection soley to clean the valves in their DI engines.

[Car_Girl]

I know... But the FSI system is poorly designed in that blowby gasses and recirculated exhaust gas comes into contact with the intake valves. Even if the system has just been cleaned low volatility oil and fuel particles adhere to the valves creating a sticky surface which more soot particles adhere to. The soot that adheres to the valves is what forms a hard "crust" making cleaning a PITA. Here's more on it if you're interested:

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...27#post5735227

http://www.google.com/patents?id=fLI...page&q&f=false

Agreed and thanks for the additional info. I'll check it out later today.

[Shnab]

i heard that supercharging the car while running meth helps in reducing/eliminating carbon, or am I dreaming.

[adamRS]

I've read that Lexus gets around this issue by using separate fuel injection soley to clean the valves in their DI engines.

I used to have an IS350 so I was curious to know if the engine in it suffered from CB. I'm not surprised at all to know that they found a way around it. Thanks for the info.

[s4nicetry]

I've read that Lexus gets around this issue by using separate fuel injection soley to clean the valves in their DI engines.

I've heard the same thing, that's why I would have thought a water or water / meth injection set up would have helped alleviate this situation, hmm.

[Mr Hyde]

Here's a pic of the port I was talking about. Its towards the firewall, and only visible when you remove the carbon fiber trim piece over the oil filter

[jstahmann]

That port was intended to be a vacuum point for the brake booster on early RS4s but they realized that there's not enough vacuum at idle for that. There's not much vacuum on the manifold side of the throttle plate, so if you sprayed cleaning material through that port it wouldn't disperse as you would want it to, and would actually puddle in the manifold. Ideally you want the spray to be highly atomized and injected where there is a lot of vacuum (before the throttle plate).

I purchased a BG apparatus and I've been using it to spray GM Top Engine Cleaner into my RS4 intake every 2500 miles (2x) since my carbon cleaning at 25k, When we removed my manifold to replace it with a ported one at 30k you could see that it had helped - the minimal carbon that was there was very soft and easily wiped off and still very wet. I am doing the GM Top Engine Cleaner method every 2500 miles.

[rs4 tony]

That port was intended to be a vacuum point for the brake booster on early RS4s but they realized that there's not enough vacuum at idle for that. There's not much vacuum on the manifold side of the throttle plate, so if you sprayed cleaning material through that port it wouldn't disperse as you would want it to, and would actually puddle in the manifold. Ideally you want the spray to be highly atomized and injected where there is a lot of vacuum (before the throttle plate).

I purchased a BG apparatus and I've been using it to spray GM Top Engine Cleaner into my RS4 intake every 2500 miles (2x) since my carbon cleaning at 25k, When we removed my manifold to replace it with a ported one at 30k you could see that it had helped - the minimal carbon that was there was very soft and easily wiped off and still very wet. I am doing the GM Top Engine Cleaner method every 2500 miles.

then at 3,000 miles you change the oil. correct?

[NoTec]

I've heard the same thing, that's why I would have thought a water or water / meth injection set up would have helped alleviate this situation, hmm.

More than a few members here have tried water/meth injection of different ratios on both n/a and supercharged Rs4s. Some have even done direct port meth injection, yes 8 individual nozzles, and the results were the same. Carbon crud!

That port was intended to be a vacuum point for the brake booster on early RS4s but they realized that there's not enough vacuum at idle for that. There's not much vacuum on the manifold side of the throttle plate, so if you sprayed cleaning material through that port it wouldn't disperse as you would want it to, and would actually puddle in the manifold. Ideally you want the spray to be highly atomized and injected where there is a lot of vacuum (before the throttle plate).

I purchased a BG apparatus and I've been using it to spray GM Top Engine Cleaner into my RS4 intake every 2500 miles (2x) since my carbon cleaning at 25k, When we removed my manifold to replace it with a ported one at 30k you could see that it had helped - the minimal carbon that was there was very soft and easily wiped off and still very wet. I am doing the GM Top Engine Cleaner method every 2500 miles.

Very interesting. Care to elaborate on your cleaning method? I'm also guessing that there was no noticeable loss in performance over those 5k miles?

[fluevog]

Very interesting. Care to elaborate on your cleaning method? I'm also guessing that there was no noticeable loss in performance over those 5k miles?

From his post on QW I believe he's using the BG 9210LBC and 9206. The equipment is only sold to shops and not available to consumers. I think he got his from Ebay.

9210LBC (You connect this to a air compressor and fill it with your choice of cleaner)


9206 (you place this right in front of the throttle body plate)


I've found others out there but they only deliver cleaner via the the fuel & vacuum lines.. If anyone has a BG unit they want ot sell please let me know as I'm currently in the market for one.
My car is currently being manually cleaned by the dealer so I want to attempt to slow down the build up via the BG apparatus. If I can't find one I'll use the 3M Fuel System Tune-Up Kit or Seafoam Spray every 2500 miles

Pictures of my carbon buildup: http://forums.quattroworld.com/rs4b7/msgs/58966.phtml

[NoTec]

Thanks dude.

It's also interesting that the 3.0T engine is not suffering from this problem. I guess they have found a way of implementing a fix. Wonder what it may be.....

[turbello18]

My indy's doing the BG clean this weekend for a buck fifty. I've got 20k and this is the 1st type of any attempt at carbon removal. fingers crossed we don't have any major deposit release folks have been mentioning,,, i guess. will report if there's any noticeable gains afterwards.

[dparm]

I've heard the same thing, that's why I would have thought a water or water / meth injection set up would have helped alleviate this situation, hmm.

Lexus and Toyota use a hybrid injection system ** both direct and port.

[koolade9]

My indy's doing the BG clean this weekend for a buck fifty. I've got 20k and this is the 1st type of any attempt at carbon removal. fingers crossed we don't have any major deposit release folks have been mentioning,,, i guess. will report if there's any noticeable gains afterwards.

don't waste your money...spend an hour or so searching and the answer will be obvi

[Steadyb]

Hi All,
FWIW over five months (6k miles) prior to Supercharging I (based on my neighbor whose a chemist & vette freaks advice) used GM's upper engine & fuel injector cleaner. I tapped the top of the plastic tube right before it connected to the manifold so I could access beyond the throttle body easily. With the engine warmed up I'd have a helper give it a little gas so I could insert the spray tube in just past the slightly opened throttle body. Then I'd spray a few bursts being careful not bog out the engine. Then with the tube still in I'd turn of the car and spray 1/3 to 1/2 bottle in, wait 10-15 minutes restart the car & idle it @ 2000-2500 rpm for a few minutes or until 30 seconds after the white smoke stopped. Then I'd spray another set of quick bursts and go for an aggressive drive at high rpm.

My installer was surprised at how little carbon built up but also by how easily it came off. The GM product literally removed it when I sprayed it into the cold manifold. The cleaner actually becomes a thick foam which reaches into every nook and cranny (if enough is sprayed). Inside the manifold we could hear the foam reacting with the buildup. The reaction has a liquifying effect. It also seemed like the foam would not liquify nearly as quickly if an area was buildup free. I've tried Seafoam(s), Techron, BG and other products. None even came close to GM's. It didn't eliminate the carbon but it definitely minimized it. I had the manifold including the valves spotless in less than 45 minutes! btw its part number- 1 #1052626

Hope it helps,

[rs4 tony]

sooo who used seafoam and there motor still works? lol. do you pour it into the throttle body with the car on or off?

[ace996]

sooo who used seafoam and there motor still works? lol. do you pour it into the throttle body with the car on or off?

I just sprayed a bottle of the Seafoam into the motor today. Had my friend come over and keep the car between 2.5K and 3K rpms and sprayed the whole bottle into the car with the small red tube. I stuck the nozzle just before the TB at the top of the tube. Car didn't smoke at all whilst spraying the can. When bottle was done, I went in the car and rev'd it up to 6K and let it drop, then 7K and let it drop, then the SMOKE was pouring out the back of the tailpipes !!!!- I can't imagine what my neighbors were thinking with the smoke-show going on and me reving the car like that.
A couple of quick revs more and the smoke stopped. I took the car out for a nice drive afterward to make sure any fluid that found it's way into my oil was cooked out...my oil temps are usually 220 degs. Can't say I really notice a difference...perhaps a bit on the high end, a hint of "kick" when I had none before, but it could just be placebo.

From my knowledge, my car has never had a carbon clean and we're at about 39K miles. Even if the spray just smooths the carbon on the valves, it'll help with the flow. I may just run another bottle through for kicks.

Be good,
TomK

[fluevog]

I've been using this product from 3M before every oil change since my last carbon cleaning. With at said though any of these products are useless is you you haven't had the valves and intake manually cleaned first. They will however slow down the build up process.