Solution for the weak B5 - 01A transmision !

[prodrive]

I am one of the guys who has a broken 3rd gear due to power/tork of the BAT engine.
When I asked the reason of a broken third gear to the transmission shops and follwers here, I came up with 2 main resasons.

1. Main shaft ends up flexing causing the 3rd gear set to pull away from each other and then starts chipping the teeth off.
2. Some say main shaft is not flexing it self but the gears are not strong enough to handle that kind of power.



So, I had a discussion with a local machine shop and explain these situations to them briefly.
They came with a solution for this issue; they offered first do the metalogical test on the input shaft and the gear.
According to the result ,they will decide if a stronger material would help for input shaft, if feasible they may produce a billet shaft
The production of the gears are also possible however they increase the costs and more work needed.

As a conclution , I am thinking to go with a billet shaft and replace OEM one but I am not sure only a billet shaft itself can solve this issue.
What do you guys think about this issue ? if you think it can help, I can also offer these billet shafts to B5 users !

[gmx]

As one of the people that you spoke to, did you speak the Scotty @ A.A? (IIRC).

He had a post I can't locate at the moment on here that exactly outlined the why the 01A is weak.
I believe it was on along the lines of point 1.

That guy builds and dissects transmission all day and from what I gather his experience and feedback is invaluable..

[prodrive]

Yes, I know him and read about his thread which you mention above.
As I read from the thread ,he is also believer of the point 1 which I support either.
However, some shops (shaft and gear producer for automotive sector) which I showed the trans. believes that the gears are weak.
As a result, there is no opiton for our cars other than swapping to 01E or different transmission.
I would rather prefer the upgraded OEM transmission over a different transmission becosue it's not easy to find these trans. in my country (you need to import it) and you need to change a lot of parts too.
If I would know the main reason ,I will go directly to the mechine shop and ask them to produce the shaft. If you go with the gears+shaft ,you double the cost.

[Papa_Dios]

When you say "weak" at what HP are you talking about that you're breaking stuff? I was under the impression that these tranny's are pretty solid.

[prodrive]

You are right ,the trans. is pretty solid until 400whp. I am talking about min. 470 whp. I run between 24-25psi daily on the street and I have it tuned pretty aggressivly with regard to timing, the A/F. I have safely tuned it up to 30psi on pump gas with W/M. and after few attempts of drag racing at 2 bar this shit has happened

[spindoctor]

Subscribed :)

prodrive, are we talking about the 1.8T 01A or 2.8L 01A?

As Im a little new to this things, which gear do these 01A usually fail apart from 3rd?

[Papa_Dios]

Gotcha I figured you were making some pretty good #'s to break stuff lol. Maybe for the same price you could step up to the 01E but from what I hear they have some issues with a 2nd-3rd shift collar (iirc?).

[prodrive]

Subscribed :)

prodrive, are we talking about the 1.8T 01A or 2.8L 01A?

As Im a little new to this things, which gear do these 01A usually fail apart from 3rd?

We are talking about 1.8T 01A transmission however, i am sure 2.8 should have the same issues around the same power levels. Yes.. the 3rd gear usually fail apart....

[ThatA4T]

i am sure 2.8 should have the same issues around the same power levels.

if the 2.8 was capable of that power ;)

[Scotty@Advanced]

I've gone down this road and you will find that having a new main shaft and gears made are going to be extremely expensive, meaning nobody will do it as you have to compete with people willing to buy a junkyard transmission for a few hundred and install it. There has been a few posts of 01A users displaying their thoughts on the matter.

But yes the main fault is the main shaft flexing 2nd being weak gears. We've looked into manufacturing an extra support but there simply isn't any room in the case to make one of substantial strength to help any. A stronger material would help immensely.. But who's willing to spend several thousand dollars to improve the 01A.

[Scotty@Advanced]

Gotcha I figured you were making some pretty good #'s to break stuff lol. Maybe for the same price you could step up to the 01E but from what I hear they have some issues with a 2nd-3rd shift collar (iirc?).

The 01E's have issues with the 1-2 collars. 3-4 shifting issues are because people can't shift properly and miss shifts of try to shit too fast. Once updated the 01E can handle uber power.

[prodrive]

The 01E's have issues with the 1-2 collars. 3-4 shifting issues are because people can't shift properly and miss shifts of try to shit too fast. Once updated the 01E can handle uber power.

Thanks for your answer..yep, the other option is to go with to a 01E which is stronger, but I have heard that some guys damage those transmissions (1st and 2 nd gear) too and they aren’t geared well for a 1.8t. The 01E is not nearly as smooth shifting (3-4 shifting) as the 01A. As I said ,the problem with doing a 01E swap is the fact that all of the driveline has to be replaced and this means a lot of effort, time and shipping cost.

I know that this issue has been discussed several times but we couln't find a solution for the 01A. If I a stronger material would help immensely.. I should think to go with a billet shaft. In my country the labor for this kind of work is not very expencive as you think like U.S.. Metalogical test will be done for free in my friends shop. The cost for a billet shaft should be around 1500US. which is a worth money. So, Scott do you think just replacing the inputshaft will help ? According to the answers ,I am going to do the price calculations with the shop and will figure out the exact costs involved. If it's not too high why not offer this to other people which can reduse costs ...

[M-Hood]

It is a input shaft flexing issue and this is why 3rd gear always tends to sheer right as you go into that gear instead of when you are already in gear and getting up near your peak tq/hp. So its not actually the amount of power the car is making but the amount of tq shock applied by the clutch to the input shaft. This means that during a shift the tq shock is so high that the input shaft is flexing pulling the gears apart and allowing the gear teeth to start chipping.

Both of the 3rd gears I snapped at the track were right at the split second as I let off the clutch going into 3rd gear. Both runs were my first shake down runs testing a FX840 twin disk cluch which happen to have 1 unsprung disk. So at the time they broke I wasn't even at WOT in 1st or 2nd gear. Exactly why I turned around and had CM make a FX850 Super Single (1 disk).

Even the Honda guys have this problem, so much that they are even able to snap the bell housing where the other end of the input shaft sits inside a bearing. This is why they end up using a shaft cuff to hold the 2 shafts together so they cant pull apart from each other and place that cuff where 5th gear would usually sit. I already tried to get a shop to do this that does plenty of them for the honda cars, problem is they did not want to take the time to do just 1 if there wasn't a market for them.

I had my gears and shafts cryo/heat treated which should reduce the flex in the input shaft. Other solution is to go with a flow control valve to also reduce the amount of tq shock.

[somebody5788]

if the 2.8 was capable of that power ;)

It totally is but it's just more parts and more money lol. S4 pistons, and s4 valves and your choice of forced induction and it'll hold 500 on stock rods =) but the pistons have to me aftermarket because OE S4 pistons are not the correct bore size.

My 2.8 transmission has chipped gears.... The 1.8t and 2.8 transmissions are virtually identical but different ratio's.

[prodrive]

Great info !!! You have been very helpfull to me, thanks. As you know, we have discussed this isuue with you several times. I have the same story like you, the 3rd gear which I snapped at the track was right at the split second as I let off the clutch going into 3rd gear either. So ,it's clear that the main problem is the input shaft confirmed by experienced people here. Actually, I have choosen the same way as Mike do for the time beeing ...however, I will be looking for the other options like billet shaft and the product which Mike described as I have a spare shaft from the broken transmission. By the way a question, the cyro/heat treath should be spesific for the material right, how does transmission shops do the cyro threating without teasting the material of the shaft ? Mike as I said ,in our country the labor is not expencive so we can look to produce this kind of material in my country for interested people. One or two doesn't matter if it's worth. I never heard that shaft cuff , do you have the project/pic of this material in hand ?

[M-Hood]

I think the flow control valve will really help. Yes it will allow the clutch to slip for a slit second making the car maybe a little slower, but no where near as slow as having no 3rd gear at all.

Here are some pictures of what a transmission cuff looks like. It uses 2 bearings that fit snug on the transmission shafts and then snug into the cuff.











The biggest down side is that you lose 5th gear which is not a problem for people that only track the car, but this means it isn't something an A4 owner is going to do on their dailly driver if they do plenty of fwy driving.

Maybe if we are able to get a few 01A owners together that would be interested in doing it I might be able to talk the shop into making them again. Since it involves having the shafts machined down it might have to be sold as a cuff/shafts combo or specs for the end user to have the shafts cut down.

[A4Rob]

I think the flow control valve will really help. Yes it will allow the clutch to slip for a slit second making the car maybe a little slower, but no where near as slow as having no 3rd gear at all.

Here are some pictures of what a transmission cuff looks like. It uses 2 bearings that fit snug on the transmission shafts and then snug into the cuff.











The biggest down side is that you lose 5th gear which is not a problem for people that only track the car, but this means it isn't something an A4 owner is going to do on their dailly driver if they do plenty of fwy driving.

Maybe if we are able to get a few 01A owners together that would be interested in doing it I might be able to talk the shop into making them again. Since it involves having the shafts machined down it might have to be sold as a cuff/shafts combo or specs for the end user to have the shafts cut down.

I was interested until I see that you lose 5th gear.

[jettaglx91]

yea i dont forsee making gears being a financially feasible option.

Its hard enough getting customers to buy gears for a transverse vw which run $2500 and youre talking minimum 10 sets to be made. and there are a whole lot more of those needing gears then 01A's

[ricekikr]

I think the flow control valve will really help.

I was also thinking of this, but wondered how it would affect clutch life? (fx400 240mm user)

Has anyone tried this? How was drive-ability, was it BMW jerky bad?

[gmx]

with all this 01E talk has anyone looked at the 0A3 trans swap? It's lighter than an 01E.

I know Lucas has done this but his pretty much impossible to get a hold of here.

[AudiA4_20T]

with all this 01E talk has anyone looked at the 0A3 trans swap? It's lighter than an 01E.

I know Lucas has done this but his pretty much impossible to get a hold of here.

It also has even better gearing than a 1.8T trans

[gmx]

It also has even better gearing than a 1.8T trans

uh huh.
Do want.

[M-Hood]

with all this 01E talk has anyone looked at the 0A3 trans swap? It's lighter than an 01E.

I know Lucas has done this but his pretty much impossible to get a hold of here.

Is it a 0A3 he is running or a 01X? He is running a 6 speed out of a B6 S4 4.2.

I guess it is a 0A3.

[M-Hood]

It also has even better gearing than a 1.8T trans

Ok for a mid powered BAT setup that can trap 122 mph at 7500 rpm, iat 8500 rpm it's 4th gear tops out at 138 mph.

It has a shorter 1st, taller 2nd, shorter 3rd and shorter 4th then my B3 01A gearing with 3.889 final. It's 4th gear only tops out at 138 at 8500 rpm.

[ZimbutheMonkey]

So question, has anyone running a journal bearing or non-extended tip type compressor (i.e. journal bearing PT 5758) ever run into issues with blowing up transmissions? This strikes me as the type of problem that's related in part to the spool characteristics of your turbo. BB and extended tip turbos (or combo thereof in the OP's case) and their faster boost ramp up seem like what's causing the torque spike that bends the shaft, not so much the power output per-se.

[SleeperAvant]

I have a journal bearing and an 01A, so far so good.

[ZimbutheMonkey]

Similar to you, I'm banking on the slightly slower spool on the 60-1 to keep the trans alive. Also, having FWD (albeit with a torsen by the time I'll have the 60-1 in) will probably let the tires loose before I'll break a gear.

[M-Hood]

So question, has anyone running a journal bearing or non-extended tip type compressor (i.e. journal bearing PT 5758) ever run into issues with blowing up transmissions? This strikes me as the type of problem that's related in part to the spool characteristics of your turbo. BB and extended tip turbos (or combo thereof in the OP's case) and their faster boost ramp up seem like what's causing the torque spike that bends the shaft, not so much the power output per-se.

Pretty sure David runs a PTE 5857 JB turbo and he kills transmissions all the time.

It has nothing to do with the ramp up, 3rd gear lets go at the point of engagment of the clutch not while your already running thru the gear.
This has to do with the issue of the input shaft flexing too much when the torque shock is sent thru it as the clutch enages.


A larger clutch setup has more leverage so it will have more torque shock then a small clutch. But I have seen people running the FX700 break the transmission going into 3rd gear.
This is why more people are starting to use a flow control valve with a 01A when making over 400whp. It helps decrease the torque shock even when running a sprung disk.
The torque shock on a single mass flywheel and unsprung disk is very high, exactly why I broke 2 transmissions within 2 weeks of each other testing the FX850 Twin Disk. Both times going into 3rd gear and not even pushing the car hard at all.


Only way a gear is going to let go while running thru a gear is if you over heat the gears and gear oil. I had that happen on the dyno after about 10-12 straight pulls with no cool down. Which is why it is always good to let the car sit for a while before doing another run at the drag strip if the car is making a good amount of power.

[gmx]

Had a quick look in ETKA(installed as UK version).

It looks like B6/B7 S4/RS4 all use a variant of 0A3.
FWD 6spd B6/B7s: 01X. (This must be the FWD version of the 02X. Earlier was listed as a 01E variant)
AWD 6spd B6: 01E/02X
AWD 6spd B7 1.8T/2.0T/3.2: 02X

I'm not sure if the transmissions are different from US version. I highly doubt it.
I can't really access NA-only stuff such as the AWM/ATW engines - they simply don't exist or not listed in what I have.
I can see the AMB in the engine list for B6 at least.

[Aragorn]

Some of the engine codes are different between US and Euro cars.

US gets the AWM for instance, the UK/Euro equivalent is the AWT.

Arent "02?" boxes transverse boxes?

[M-Hood]

Pretty sure some of the 02 boxes are transverse, the 02J and 02M are in fact transverse. Looks like the 02X is a longitude transmission, JHM list a rebuild kit for it and the 01X.


Here is a 02X that is for sale and it is a longitude transmission out of a B6/B7 A4.

[belinko]

Hey Mike,

Kind of unrelated, but when I track my car (road course) and I find my self shifting into third gear coming out of second at 6000+ rpm, sometimes it feels like a mis-shift (some grinding) or just like I can't get into third gear. At that point I go back to neutral and shift into third at a lower rpm and everything seems fine. Could I be experiencing some flexing in the input shaft or am I just a crappy driver?

TIA

[v dub'n]

I myself would love this option, a bullet proof 01A would be awesome. I will be doing the flow control mod like Mike stated above. I busted a 3rd gear in 50miles after my build making under 400whp now at 470 with a v6 01A trans it's taken more of a beating but the gearing sucks and i'm now careful and only roll slowly into 3rd.

[M-Hood]

Hey Mike,

Kind of unrelated, but when I track my car (road course) and I find my self shifting into third gear coming out of second at 6000+ rpm, sometimes it feels like a mis-shift (some grinding) or just like I can't get into third gear. At that point I go back to neutral and shift into third at a lower rpm and everything seems fine. Could I be experiencing some flexing in the input shaft or am I just a crappy driver?

TIA

Could be a syncro issue at 6k+ rpms or you are just lifting off the clutch pedal a little too soon.

Have you tried changing the fluid?

[ZimbutheMonkey]

So what's the deal with the fluid control mod? Has anyone documented the process?

[M-Hood]

So what's the deal with the fluid control mod? Has anyone documented the process?

I have it on my A4. It allows the fluid to flow thru it like normal when you push the pedal down, then forces the fluid thru a smaller hole when you release the pedal.
This means the slave releases slower then the speed you release the pedal. The smaller the hole the slower it releases.

[belinko]

Could be a syncro issue at 6k+ rpms or you are just lifting off the clutch pedal a little too soon.

Have you tried changing the fluid?

Mike,

Thanks for the input.

Clutch is pretty new, less than a year old, which means the tranny fluid might have 10K on it.

It's nice to see that you're back on AZ again.

[WestfarmRacing]

So question, has anyone running a journal bearing or non-extended tip type compressor (i.e. journal bearing PT 5758) ever run into issues with blowing up transmissions? This strikes me as the type of problem that's related in part to the spool characteristics of your turbo. BB and extended tip turbos (or combo thereof in the OP's case) and their faster boost ramp up seem like what's causing the torque spike that bends the shaft, not so much the power output per-se.

We have journal bearing 5557 billet and sheered 2 01a third gears in one week now. Will install 01e and eventually a shorter gear kit for 01e. Think thats the only way to go here...

[Leospeedworks]

Good morning where will you get a shorter gear set for the 01E and how much? I went the same route also after breaking a 01A. I'm running a 6057 journal bearing turbine.

[chris164935]

I looked up the transmission cuff in the pictures posted earlier. It's only $200! I would be willing to throw down something to find out if that thing would work with the 01A. I am guessing the bearings might have to be changed to fit on our shafts. Still might be a cheaper option though? APTuning also makes a cuff for the 02J transmissions. Might be able to use those bearings if the shafts are thd same diameter? Then just have the CNC Design cuff bored out if need be.
Another thing a buddy and I were discussing was possibly using 01E input shafts with 01A gears and putting the cuff where 6th gear would normally go...