B6/B7 S4 Timing Chain FAQ / Information / Discussion Thread

[gcoy]

No cam codes. Also like the bank 1 isnt even running. It's crazy. The idles insanely shakey. I'm lost.

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When my timing went, It was all on one bank. (no cam codes, just misfire codes like you are having) A tensioner on that bank left go and the chain skipped a tooth. Car ran but super rough idle, no power....

[1975audi]

How many have done the timing chain job and not replaced the chains ?
Is it a bad idea?
I thought chains last forever.
I have a 2004 S4 with 130,000 klm and it has a 3 second cold start rattle, it even rattles sometimes when the engine is warm.
Going to tackle this job sooner than later.


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[VinnysS4]

How many have done the timing chain job and not replaced the chains ?
Is it a bad idea?
I thought chains last forever.
I have a 2004 S4 with 130,000 klm and it has a 3 second cold start rattle, it even rattles sometimes when the engine is warm.
Going to tackle this job sooner than later.


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To be honest, the chains should not need replacing. They don't really wear out, atleast not to a measurable amount. People usually swap whatever they can just due to the magnitude of the job. But deffinately mark them and reinstall the same way they came off.
I would venture to say you could get away with nothing more than the 2 guides that always break and a set of mechanical camshaft adjusters. Those are really your only noted problem childs. Then again, "while you're in there" and "for peace of mind " is the general consensus.
I say ....... seeeennnnd it!

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[CobraRGuy]

"Early B6’s seem to be effected most and later B7’s the least since the components were updated."

I'm looking at buying a 2008 S4 and am concerned about this issue. I'm hoping someone can answer a couple of questions:

1) Are there any know cases of 2008 4.2L engine can chain tensioner/timing adjuster/guide failures?
2) What components have been updated? All of the ones that are known to fail?
3) Is it known what manufacturing date Audi changed over to using the updated parts in production?

If Audi changed over production in, say mid 2016, I would have no hesitation buying a 2018 model.

I hope someone who sees this and has the answers to these questions responds. I would be grateful as I'm liking the idea of buying one of these for my wife.

Thanks, CobraRGuy

[NALS4]

"Early B6’s seem to be effected most and later B7’s the least since the components were updated."

I'm looking at buying a 2008 S4 and am concerned about this issue. I'm hoping someone can answer a couple of questions:

1) Are there any know cases of 2008 4.2L engine can chain tensioner/timing adjuster/guide failures?

Witness! I just did the timing component replacement on my 2008 S4 with 109k miles. The usual lower guide was broken into at least 3 pieces, and my bank 2 mechanical cam adjuster had the little plastic spring cap destroyed, with the resulting grit causing failure to operate and thus misfires. The sprocket wasn't noticeably worn, though.

I had heard the same thing about later B7s having updated components before purchasing mine, but others have said that isn't the case, and I certainly saw that mine had failed. On the bright side, after doing the service myself, I know a LOT more about my car, and I have a bunch more tools for use on future projects.

[Terry.Reese]

Witness! I just did the timing component replacement on my 2008 S4 with 109k miles. The usual lower guide was broken into at least 3 pieces, and my bank 2 mechanical cam adjuster had the little plastic spring cap destroyed, with the resulting grit causing failure to operate and thus misfires. The sprocket wasn't noticeably worn, though.

I had heard the same thing about later B7s having updated components before purchasing mine, but others have said that isn't the case, and I certainly saw that mine had failed. On the bright side, after doing the service myself, I know a LOT more about my car, and I have a bunch more tools for use on future projects.

I thought the RS versions were the only upgrade to metal, B7 still has plastic guides. maybe a better quality, but still plastic.

[VinnysS4]

1. Yes
2. The only parts that are known to be compatible with the B6 B7 S4 timing chain parts are the middle upper and lower left timing chain guides. They are the ones that actually break and the RS4 guides are an actual upgrade over the plastic ones that they replace .I have personally installed these on several Motors mine included.

3...

So I have read in several places that late model B7 S4 had a upgrade version of the plastic guide that fails most often. I call BS on that because I don't see it being as much of an upgrade. Honestly I couldn't tell you what that date was.
It may have been a different part number that was superseded by a previous number but from 2003 till 2008 they all had plastic upper middle and lower left timing chain guides. They all break. The only ones I have ever seen that don't break are the metal guides from the RS4. I have only read one or maybe two instances of the RS4 having timing chain issues and or failures.

I absolutely love the B6 and B7 platform. I own one of each. The issues that this platform has does not turn me away from the Cars themselves. That being said, if you buy a B6 or B7 S4, either get one that has had the timing chain service done, or get one for cheap that has not had it done and put the rest of the cash you saved towards a timing chain service.

People tend to forget that these cars originally sold for as much as a Corvette. 56k was the sticker price on my car new. They are like a high maintenance girlfriend. Absolutely gorgeous on the outside and will treat you well as long as you maintain them properly. My wife is cost me much more than my S4 LOL and yet I still love her to death.

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[2004B6S4]

There was a revision made to some of the guides on the B7, as they have different part #'s in the ETKA parts guide. I believe what happened was that JHM mentioned this revision in their marketing materials for their timing chain kit and, whether it was intentional or not, misled people into believing that this revision actually made a difference in the chances of these parts breaking, which then got parroted over and over on these forums. Perhaps this helped them sell more of the kits to B6 owners who felt that their cars were especially vulnerable to the issue... When that was going around a lot on here, the B7's were still new enough that not very many of them had enough miles to have these issues happen yet

[1975audi]

What are the parts numbers for the rs4 upgraded guides?
I have a 2004 vin # WAUPL68E14A037564
Europa told me that my car needs parts # 079109469ac
Has this part been revised or is it still made out of plastic.

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[Terry.Reese]

What are the parts numbers for the rs4 upgraded guides?
I have a 2004 vin # WAUPL68E14A037564
Europa told me that my car needs parts # 079109469ac
Has this part been revised or is it still made out of plastic.

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1 Engine Timing Chain Guide 059109469F RS4 upgraded replaces 079109469AA

1 Engine Timing Chain Guide VAG-059109469E RS4 upgraded replaces 079109469AC(vin low) or 079109469AD(vin high)depending on year split
VIN below 200000 uses 079109469AC if they do not want to have the upgrade (some say the RS4 upgrade doesnt work) others say it does.)
2000001 matches exactly to the stock 079109469AD

Mine has the upgraded one and I have an 04 as well. only difference is the little oil nipple on the lower VIN that the newer VIN doesn't have. that oil hole goes no where and seems to be just a reservoir to hold excess oil in it.

https://www.audizine.com/forum/showt...ATED-July-2017

[1975audi]

1 Engine Timing Chain Guide059109469F RS4 upgraded replaces 079109469AA

1 Engine Timing Chain Guide VAG-059109469E RS4 upgraded replaces 079109469AC(vin low) or 079109469AD(vin high)depending on year split
VIN below 200000 uses 079109469AC if they do not want to have the upgrade (some say the RS4 upgrade doesnt work) others say it does.)
2000001 matches exactly to the stock 079109469AD

Mine has the upgraded one and I have an 04 as well. only difference is the little oil nipple on the lower VIN that the newer VIN doesn't have. that oil hole goes no where and seems to be just a reservoir to hold excess oil in it.

https://www.audizine.com/forum/showt...ATED-July-2017

Thank you very much

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[1975audi]

How about the rear main seal, is this a item that should be changed due to the motor been out.
Did most of you change it?

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[VinnysS4]

How about the rear main seal, is this a item that should be changed due to the motor been out.
Did most of you change it?

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Absolutely!

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[Terry.Reese]

if you grab a part number I can toss it up int he first post as well.

[Hayesman]

Anyone care to interpret this? Just got a VCDS and am trying to figure out my timing...I guess -8 and -3 aren’t terrible?
IMG_0125.JPGIMG_0126.JPG


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[1975audi]

Absolutely!

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Is this the correct part #
012311113B

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[DarrenOman]

Is this the correct part #
012311113B

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I have
079103051F for my b6 crankshaft rear oil seal

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[1975audi]

I have
079103051F for my b6 crankshaft rear oil seal

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Ok yes my part # is for the Transmission Main Shaft Seal

Are both advised to replace?

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[DarrenOman]

Excellent question. I want even considering my tranny main seal.

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[VinnysS4]

Here is a fine example of a 50k mile b6 S4 with a cracked timing chain guide.
Always replace this one with the upgraded RS4 guide.




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[markham]

Here is a fine example of a 50k mile b6 S4 with a cracked timing chain guide.
Always replace this one with the upgraded RS4 guide.




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Vinny, my B6 just hit 55,000 Miles today. In your opinion is it better to wait for clear signs of timing guides breaking or just preemptively get them done? I get a slight rattle on cold starts some times but not always. Car drives fine otherwise and has good power. How often do things go from driving perfectly fine to catastrophic in one day? Will be easy to see signs timing needs to be done? Was this one showing signs or just decided to do it? Sorry in advance if you have answered this previously.


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[1975audi]

I'm in the same boat but I get a 2-3 second rattle on cold starts.


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[VinnysS4]

Vinny, my B6 just hit 55,000 Miles today. In your opinion is it better to wait for clear signs of timing guides breaking or just preemptively get them done? I get a slight rattle on cold starts some times but not always. Car drives fine otherwise and has good power. How often do things go from driving perfectly fine to catastrophic in one day? Will be easy to see signs timing needs to be done? Was this one showing signs or just decided to do it? Sorry in advance if you have answered this previously.


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This S4 didn't show any signs of timing failure. No cold start rattle, nothing. I'm sure the engine could have gone to 100k before needing the service done, that being said, personally I would do it around 75k. My personal s4 had disintegrated guides at 112k.
Enjoy it while it lasts :)


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[markham]

This S4 didn't show any signs of timing failure. No cold start rattle, nothing. I'm sure the engine could have gone to 100k before needing the service done, that being said, personally I would do it around 75k. My personal s4 had disintegrated guides at 112k.
Enjoy it while it lasts :)


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Thanks very helpful. As I only put on around 3-4k miles per year, think I’ll hold off for a bit yet


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[VinnysS4]

Thanks very helpful. As I only put on around 3-4k miles per year, think I’ll hold off for a bit yet


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Pay attention to warm start and listen for timing chain rattle. Generally it's when you get timing chain rattle on a warm start that you need to start worrying about it. And remember, a lot of the time I just actually oil check valves that have gone bad and not timing chain guide

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[darrenho]

Not sure if this was asked/answered before: Any 3rd party extended warranty covers the timing chain guides replacement job?

[markham]

Pay attention to warm start and listen for timing chain rattle. Generally it's when you get timing chain rattle on a warm start that you need to start worrying about it. And remember, a lot of the time I just actually oil check valves that have gone bad and not timing chain guide

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Many thanks for that, will definitely look out for the warm rattle.



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[Hollywood33]

Anyone care to interpret this? Just got a VCDS and am trying to figure out my timing...I guess -8 and -3 aren’t terrible?
IMG_0125.JPGIMG_0126.JPG


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Can anyone answer this question? I am interested to hear how numbers like these do or do not speak to the health of the timing chain system.

If they do, what are ideal numbers? What are shit numbers?

Thanks!

[jago]

hi all
apologies in advance as the info's all over the place here, but can someone add to or summarize the latest on "while you're in there" items?
i am possibly buying a 2008 B7 S4 100k AT very shortly and i may arrange preventative timing chain work with seller,
and want to bundle all other critical items in the job. i'm not the most mechanically oriented so need some guidance. ty.

RS4 metal chain guides only, correct?
cooling system components?
cam adjusters
oil 'valley' gaskets
valve cover gaskets
rear main seal

[Mentosman42]

I believe I was at -6 and -8, when I took the timing apart the cam adjusters were actually in good shape(very minimal wear on the hole for the locking pin) but the main guide that always breaks was in fact broken. Half of the guide had fallen down and wedged itself into a position that it was actually putting a good amount of tension on the chain. That being said, if it moved it would have been ground up into shrapnel that would have then been distributed around the engine. I found a good amount of plastic in the oil pump screen.

This was on an 08 with 125k miles.

[Mentosman42]

hi all
apologies in advance as the info's all over the place here, but can someone add to or summarize the latest on "while you're in there" items?
i am possibly buying a 2008 B7 S4 100k AT very shortly and i may arrange preventative timing chain work with seller,
and want to bundle all other critical items in the job. i'm not the most mechanically oriented so need some guidance. ty.

RS4 metal chain guides only, correct?
cooling system components?
cam adjusters
oil 'valley' gaskets
valve cover gaskets
rear main seal

Check out JH Motorsports timing service kits, they have a few different packages ranging from essentials to a full kit. The RS4 guide is the replacement for the guide that broke in my previous post, the rest of the guides seem to hold up ok but the kit comes with all new OEM guides along with the RS4 guide. As far as the cam adjusters, the actual adjuster portion generally doesn't have problems, it is the sprocket on the back side that the bore for the locking pin ovals out. JHM also has a CnC machined replacement sprocket that is made from a harder steel to solve the ovaling out problem.

That list looks like the essentials of what you should do when doing a timing service, there is a lot you can get into(compression test/leakdown test the engine and check cylinder bores if numbers are low, ect) when pulling the engine apart but I would also look at replacing the oil check valves in the oil valley.

While you have the intake manifold off it is worth checking if the diverter flap is working, just did my timing service and pulled my intake apart to clean some of the oil out and found that my intake flap was seized. They sell rebuild kits but you can also get it apart and clean the shaft/bore and that seems to take care of the problem.

[jago]

Check out JH Motorsports timing service kits, they have a few different packages ranging from essentials to a full kit. The RS4 guide is the replacement for the guide that broke in my previous post, the rest of the guides seem to hold up ok but the kit comes with all new OEM guides along with the RS4 guide. As far as the cam adjusters, the actual adjuster portion generally doesn't have problems, it is the sprocket on the back side that the bore for the locking pin ovals out. JHM also has a CnC machined replacement sprocket that is made from a harder steel to solve the ovaling out problem.

That list looks like the essentials of what you should do when doing a timing service, there is a lot you can get into(compression test/leakdown test the engine and check cylinder bores if numbers are low, ect) when pulling the engine apart but I would also look at replacing the oil check valves in the oil valley.

While you have the intake manifold off it is worth checking if the diverter flap is working, just did my timing service and pulled my intake apart to clean some of the oil out and found that my intake flap was seized. They sell rebuild kits but you can also get it apart and clean the shaft/bore and that seems to take care of the problem.

cool thank you


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[VinnysS4]

I believe I was at -6 and -8, when I took the timing apart the cam adjusters were actually in good shape(very minimal wear on the hole for the locking pin) but the main guide that always breaks was in fact broken. Half of the guide had fallen down and wedged itself into a position that it was actually putting a good amount of tension on the chain. That being said, if it moved it would have been ground up into shrapnel that would have then been distributed around the engine. I found a good amount of plastic in the oil pump screen.

This was on an 08 with 125k miles.

I've taken 2 apart with huge chunks missing and one wedge behind the chain. Good stuff!

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[EvoRam]

This S4 didn't show any signs of timing failure. No cold start rattle, nothing. I'm sure the engine could have gone to 100k before needing the service done, that being said, personally I would do it around 75k. My personal s4 had disintegrated guides at 112k.
Enjoy it while it lasts :)

I got lucky with mine. No cracks on any of my stock guides when I had mine done at around 110k.

[Velox]

I see on the pics that the lower and upper guides have been removed with the chains still on.
Does this mean you can actually replace those guides without removing the chains?

[522sixth]

Id be interested to know this as well. If you remove the dowel pins and collapse the tensioner I would think it would work.

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[VinnysS4]

I see on the pics that the lower and upper guides have been removed with the chains still on.
Does this mean you can actually replace those guides without removing the chains?

Yup! You can replace both the trouble guides without taking the chains off. You can also do the tensioners on the backside of the heads without removing the chains.

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[Velox]

Yup! You can replace both the trouble guides without taking the chains off. You can also do the tensioners on the backside of the heads without removing the chains.

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Now I'm seriously thinking about going that route even though I bought All tensioners/guides/chains/timing tools.

The car has 88K miles, occasional cold startup rattle, cam/timing related vag measuring blocks well within spec.

I really don't want to install my new headers, exhaust, manifold and not be able to enjoy the new setup because I messed something up.

Been reading about the timing service since I got the car and know pretty much all steps by memory, plus I have the service manual. but lately I've been reading about problems after timing service from people who probably have more wrench experience than me.

So maybe I'll just replace the 2 problematic guides and drive the new setup for a year and then eventually I want to manual swap and replace all other timing components, if my engine explodes then at least I've experienced the new setup for a while.

[paul61]

Do yourself a favor and replace all guides with liners. We do these daily, usually 2 engines on bench at same time. Forget about replacing the tensioners and chains......unless u have money to burn? You DO need to disassemble the cam adjusters and inspect the dowel pin hole for elongation. I would STRONGLY suggest you replace the oil check valves located under cover plate and intake! Or....you may experience the same start up rattle due to pressure leakage?? U can check for this when engine is still in car: if check valves are leaking....your oil level on dipstick will rise as car sits.😉😉

[paul61]

Im not sold on the RS4 guide. The standard redesigned guide is a better choice IMO. The old guide had a stress riser ( sharp corner) on reverse side where they always break. Gone on new guide. I prefer a solid guide to one with a liner. Sure, the aluminum backing may be stronger, but the liner will most likely fail as it becomes brittle due to heat and oil contamination....as do the other 2.