ceramic coating the turbo?

[twiztids4]

i am contemplating getting the frankenturbo or bw ko4. my question, is it really worth the extra 100-150 for the ceramic coating on the turbo or not? i have aftermarket downpipes but none of them are heat wrapped, ceramic coated, etc. if its not really worth it then i wont do it. thanks

[b6nukka]

On that small of a turbo it probably isn't worth it but I haven't even seen much people do it on larger turbos anyways since you can only do it on the cold side the hot side usually burns the paint off.

[Korben007]

ceramic coating is made for the hot side and it works great against discoloration and corrosion. My main motive for getting the coating would not be for added performance on a small turbo but for longevity and protection.

[twiztids4]

thanks for the responses guys. Hey korben I see the idea you have for added protection by the coating but if you do the coating won't it make the turbo much less smooth (worse flow) I also heard it could mess up the tolerances. Lastly, are these really going to rust and mess up the life? My stock ko3's didn't come coated from factory and they are 11 years old with 80k on them still running perfectly. I am just trying to get all the info together and play devils advocate. Thanks.

[zillarob]

The swaintech stuff is pretty tough, works well on manifolds.
Only time I've seen the inside coated was some zero clearance stuff on the cold side.

[Mantis]

The coating's main purpose is to keep heat in the turbine side of the turbo, heat provides up to 75% of the energy required to spool the turbo, the remaining 25% comes from gas velocity. An added bonus to these coatings is reduced under hood temps. So in short, the coating of the hotside is mainly for spooling the turbo, I say go for it, it definitely won't hurt.

[judeisnotobscur]

The coating's main purpose is to keep heat in the turbine side of the turbo, heat provides up to 75% of the energy required to spool the turbo, the remaining 25% comes from gas velocity. An added bonus to these coatings is reduced under hood temps. So in short, the coating of the hotside is mainly for spooling the turbo, I say go for it, it definitely won't hurt.

Best answer

[shorterthanrich]

Maintaining higher exhaust gas temps = higher exhaust gas velocity. Hotter air is less dense, therefore it needs to move through the system faster to evacuate the same amount of mass.

do it for the spoolage.

[FlyboyS4]

i am contemplating getting the frankenturbo or bw ko4. my question, is it really worth the extra 100-150 for the ceramic coating on the turbo or not? i have aftermarket downpipes but none of them are heat wrapped, ceramic coated, etc. if its not really worth it then i wont do it. thanks

The insulating value is dependent upon the material thermal conductivity and thickness. Even though the ceramics have a low thermal conductivity, the thickness that is painted on is minimal. The resulting insulating value is very likely to be negligible.

[ECS Tuning-Audi]

It's really a toss up when it comes to the smaller turbos such as KO3's.

Essentially there's not much lag so its really a personally preference.

Is there a performance gain? Definitely. Enough to justify the time and effort however, that's up to you.

UNLESS it's a vehicle that regularly sees the track, autocross, etc..

Pete

[FlyboyS4]

Is there a performance gain? Definitely.

Anxiously awaiting the proof to back up that statement.

[ECS Tuning-Audi]

Anxiously awaiting the proof to back up that statement.

Plenty of the people in the racing industry use coatings on pistons, exhaust manifolds, turbine housings, etc where lots of heat is present must be some performance benefit in it.

[Scotty@Advanced]

The insulating value is dependent upon the material thermal conductivity and thickness. Even though the ceramics have a low thermal conductivity, the thickness that is painted on is minimal. The resulting insulating value is very likely to be negligible.

True however We jet hot coated an exhaust manifold, crosspipe and turbo housing on a 944t and the engine compartment temps dropped 50 degrees before and after.

however some coatings flake off over time and will eat up a turbine wheel (seen this) and some of the coatings also will burn off or oxidize while they are put into service (seen this too). But for race conditions coatings are defintley a benefit.

[twiztids4]

Thanks for all the info guys. I ended up not doing the ceramic coating. I am not going to track the car so it seems like a waste of money and less potential problems this way...

[shorterthanrich]

Thanks for all the info guys. I ended up not doing the ceramic coating. I am not going to track the car so it seems like a waste of money and less potential problems this way...

Coating the exterior = less potential problems. Less likely to rust/oxidize, lower engine bay temps, etc.

Just saying.

[FlyboyS4]

Plenty of the people in the racing industry use coatings on pistons, exhaust manifolds, turbine housings, etc where lots of heat is present must be some performance benefit in it.

**racing industry** is not the same as mass market consumer industry. I'm not saying they can't work when applied in sufficient thickness. I don't think what goes on a consumer product is sufficiently thick to provide a real benefit.

True however We jet hot coated an exhaust manifold, crosspipe and turbo housing on a 944t and the engine compartment temps dropped 50 degrees before and after.

As above, I understand ceramic coatings will work when applied in sufficient thickness. But, for example, taken from the Swaintech site, their White Lightning Exhaust coating is a whopping 0.015" thick. I'm sure with several coatings you could get some decent insulation going, but is that what the average consumer gets when they buy this type of product?

[dannyn424]

wouldn't a hotter turbo f up the oil cooling of the turbine.........

[Scotty@Advanced]

**racing industry** is not the same as mass market consumer industry. I'm not saying they can't work when applied in sufficient thickness. I don't think what goes on a consumer product is sufficiently thick to provide a real benefit.



As above, I understand ceramic coatings will work when applied in sufficient thickness. But, for example, taken from the Swaintech site, their White Lightning Exhaust coating is a whopping 0.015" thick. I'm sure with several coatings you could get some decent insulation going, but is that what the average consumer gets when they buy this type of product?

i don't know might want to ask that of Swaintech and Jet hot. I know the Jet hot coating was very expensive compared to the swaintech offerings.

[B5Ballin]

Swaintech is very expensive. I had my piston tops and skirts swain coated and they were still good 12k after when I blew it up lol.its not going to burn off any time in this lifetime. I also had my exhaust manifold coated and def kept the under the hood temperatures down. I would suggest getting a turbo blanket from dei if you are worried about heat, other then that you don't see the turbos anyways so screw the cosmetic issues. Just remember keeping all that heat in helps flow, but puts a lot more stresson the metals.

[IMOLA_KEV]

i am contemplating getting the frankenturbo or bw ko4. my question, is it really worth the extra 100-150 for the ceramic coating on the turbo or not? i have aftermarket downpipes but none of them are heat wrapped, ceramic coated, etc. if its not really worth it then i wont do it. thanks

how much boost are you going to be running? ko4's already spool fast however if your going to be pushing the limit of the turbos like 20+psi they start blowing hot air. a ceramic coating may increase IAT temperature, not worth it imho. now if u had say a gt40 or another big turbo i would do that in a heartbeat.

[Angular]

The insulating value is dependent upon the material thermal conductivity and thickness. Even though the ceramics have a low thermal conductivity, the thickness that is painted on is minimal. The resulting insulating value is very likely to be negligible.

Anxiously awaiting the proof to back up that statement. How hard can it be to measure temps in/on/around a coated part like an exhaust manifold? (Not that hard.) Doesn't even seem like this is debatable.

[FlyboyS4]

Anxiously awaiting the proof to back up that statement. How hard can it be to measure temps in/on/around a coated part like an exhaust manifold? (Not that hard.) Doesn't even seem like this is debatable.

Difficult when you go and lose the notepad you're keeping the data on. Prior to installing VAST ceramic coated manifolds I was recording the temps on the stock manifolds, then at some point with the mess my garage became pulling the motor I lost my sheet of paper, so I'll have to ponder what the result would have been. The thing is, if the exhaust manifold is humming along at 300F (or whatever it is) while you're driving. That's steady state, and the manifolds are going to heat up to that temperature with or without the ceramics. The ceramic coating may help some with the transients like when you go WOT, but that's such a short period of time anyhow it is likely the normal insulating properties of the manifold help to contain that heat.

I could try comparing my results with ceramic coated manifolds to somebody's car without. I may show something, but then who's to say it isn't from being on different cars.

[IMOLA_KEV]

Difficult when you go and lose the notepad you're keeping the data on. Prior to installing VAST ceramic coated manifolds I was recording the temps on the stock manifolds, then at some point with the mess my garage became pulling the motor I lost my sheet of paper, so I'll have to ponder what the result would have been. The thing is, if the exhaust manifold is humming along at 300F (or whatever it is) while you're driving. That's steady state, and the manifolds are going to heat up to that temperature with or without the ceramics. The ceramic coating may help some with the transients like when you go WOT, but that's such a short period of time anyhow it is likely the normal insulating properties of the manifold help to contain that heat.
I could try comparing my results with ceramic coated manifolds to somebody's car without. I may show something, but then who's to say it isn't from being on different cars.

true statement, both manifold would have to tested in the same conditions, same tune, gas engine and also engine parts. unless you have a dyno in your garage its gunna be impossible to replicate the exact load consistantly. More load += More heat

[Angular]

The thing is, if the exhaust manifold is humming along at 300F (or whatever it is) while you're driving. That's steady state, and the manifolds are going to heat up to that temperature with or without the ceramics. The ceramic coating may help some with the transients like when you go WOT, but that's such a short period of time anyhow it is likely the normal insulating properties of the manifold help to contain that heat.

That's true but the coatings are supposed to prevent a significant amount of that heat from radiating out and elevating the ambient temps and/or cooking other components in close proximity. The stock manifolds may have more heat insulating/containing ability with it's dual wall design compared to aftermarket headers or log style manifolds, in which case the ceramic coating would be more useful. You seem rather skeptical of the effectiveness of ceramic coatings, so I am wondering why that is. I haven't really heard anyone call "bullshit" on ceramic coatings before, but I will admit they are expensive and therefore the ROI may be questionable.

[AJN334]

[shorterthanrich]

how much boost are you going to be running? ko4's already spool fast however if your going to be pushing the limit of the turbos like 20+psi they start blowing hot air. a ceramic coating may increase IAT temperature, not worth it imho. now if u had say a gt40 or another big turbo i would do that in a heartbeat.

I see why you're going down this logic, but no. Ceramic coating will LOWER ambient temps in the bay, lowering IATs. The hot side and cold side are separate. Hot exhaust gas - aka the less heat radiates out of the turbo - results in faster spool. Fringe benefit of less heat radiating is a cooler engine bay, and :. cooler IATs.

The real question is the value of very thin coatings of ceramic, and that's valid. There are companies out there that specialize in coatings and show before and after results with impressive gains. When I was researching whether or not to do mine, I came across a few places that convinced me...

[FlyboyS4]

You seem rather skeptical of the effectiveness of ceramic coatings, so I am wondering why that is. I haven't really heard anyone call "bullshit" on ceramic coatings before, but I will admit they are expensive and therefore the ROI may be questionable.

It's not that I don't think ceramic coatings can be effective in reducing heat transfer, their use in a number of applications would indicate they are, ie space shuttle. What I am skeptical about is when they are used on automotive parts and applied in a thickness that is less than 0.5 mm. The ceramic coating is nothing more than insulation, and even something with a low thermal conductivity isn't going to lower heat transfer by much if the insulator is paper thin.

[jibberjive]

I thought I remember Slappy posting that he ceramic coats all of the Frankenturbo's since they are using lesser grade Chinese turbine housings. They charge extra for it?

[Doug@FrankenTurbo]

It's not that I don't think ceramic coatings can be effective in reducing heat transfer, their use in a number of applications would indicate they are, ie space shuttle. What I am skeptical about is when they are used on automotive parts and applied in a thickness that is less than 0.5 mm. The ceramic coating is nothing more than insulation, and even something with a low thermal conductivity isn't going to lower heat transfer by much if the insulator is paper thin.

At paper-thin thickness ceramics don't work as insulators. They dampen the substrate's ability to conduct heat. They're reflectors, basically. This link to a technical document by the coatings manufacturer has some interesting info. These coatings are not alchemy. They work.

I thought I remember Slappy posting that he ceramic coats all of the Frankenturbo's since they are using lesser grade Chinese turbine housings. They charge extra for it?

You remember correctly. Our ductile iron is not up to the standard of OEM. BorgWarner and Garrett use D5S (Ni-Resist) while we use SiMo. The way we bridge the quality gap is by applying that "Turbine Coat" product described in the technical document. This procedure nets our coated castings a higher rating than "bare" OEM.

So what gives with the "bare" FrankenTurbos? After researching the EGTs in the 2.7T platform I saw that the turbos are within their manufacturing limits without coatings. So I dropped the coatings and lowered the price. If you still want coatings, they remain available as an option. But this decision was made only once testing showed the turbos would hold up.

[ECS Tuning-Audi]

**racing industry** is not the same as mass market consumer industry. I'm not saying they can't work when applied in sufficient thickness. I don't think what goes on a consumer product is sufficiently thick to provide a real benefit.



As above, I understand ceramic coatings will work when applied in sufficient thickness. But, for example, taken from the Swaintech site, their White Lightning Exhaust coating is a whopping 0.015" thick. I'm sure with several coatings you could get some decent insulation going, but is that what the average consumer gets when they buy this type of product?

I agree it is not the same industry. Do companies that supply these services offer the same service publicly they would to someone in the racing industry? I'm not sure.

Again, for some one that is mostly going to be daily driving the vehicle and enjoying sprinted driving on Saturday afternoons would not necessarily benefit from this coating.

As one mentioned earlier about the stock manifolds thickness- that's where you can make up for not having any coatings or wraps since the thickness will control the heat as opposed to say a tubular style manifold with thin piping wall thickness- which is what would need coatings and wraps to hold the heat in.

For this same reason this is why 99% of all cars turbo and NA have cast "log" style manifolds. I'd imagine its cheaper too to cast something then individually weld up a tubular style manifold.

Bottom line leave the coatings and stuff of that nature for race cars and cars that see the track often IMO.

Pete

[FlyboyS4]

This link to a technical document by the coatings manufacturer has some interesting info.

For that *test*, the folks at Cerakote didn't mention the thickness of the material they were testing. That bit of information would be useful to know. It also looks like they either plotted the data incorrectly, or improperly interpreted the chart. They state in the results that at 572F & 1112F the C-186 coating lowered the temp by 48F & 55F respectively, looking at the scale of the chart, I'd say the difference between that coating and the bare pipe is half that amount.

Interesting to see somebody attempting a test, too bad there are some errors and omissions in the write up.

[ezfour]

Here is an interesting research article about a new alloy called Niobium. They test this against the FT housing alloy Si-Mo and the BW alloy D5S. This is the only side by side comparison I could find even though neither are the main alloy in question.

[ezfour]

http://www.cbmm.com.br/portug/source...s/pdfs/053.pdf