[Discussion] Gear Ratio for 01E & 01A

[iloveturbo]

Hi guys,

I been looking into the possibility of developing a full set of custom gear aiming to improve 1/4 mile time(My setup - HTA3586, 2.1L, B6 3.0 01E). I noticed EVO with has somewhat similar powerband achieve 11s (or even 10s) rather easily in comparison to Audi/vw platform. Now I am not a expert in transmission or anything but I think the gear ratio in those cars are much better suited for that propose (close-ratio). Having said that, I would like to hear your opinion on what gear ratio would you like to see in the B5/B6 platform that would further elevate our platform? I mean think about it. If by swapping out 3rd and 4th gear in the 5-speed 01A would shave off 0.5 seconds, I think it would be a worthy options for the guys who having put so much heart and soul into their builds.

I took the time to plug the ratios I found around the net into gear ratio calculators. I thought some of you guys may find them useful.

1.8T 5-SPD B6




1.8T 6-SPD Quattro (B6, B7)




B5 S4




B6 3.0 01E




B6 S4 0A3 [added 12.15.2010]



Advanced automotion 01E Close-ratio




Advanced automotion Drag Race Dog box




EVO7




AA suggested gear ratio [added 12.15.2010]




Looks like Advanced Automtion Dog box recommended gear ratios are fairly close to EVO's offering.

Please chime in if you have any thoughts or experience in this regard.

-Howard

[hercfe]

For the price involved, get a new car if you want a drag car-seriously. Aside from that, though, if the input and output shafts are the same on each trans, I'd just swap the 3rd and 4th from the 5spd into the 3.0 6spd and leave everything else alone internally, then change to a 4.11 final drive. You DONT want a dogbox on a car that you drive everyday, i promise you that. Also, if you look at the ratios vs speed vs rpm, you'll notice that your trans, as well as the B5s4 and the 1.8t 6 spd are all very well suited to an 11ish second trap time as it will put you right at the top of 4th according to your shift point of 7500-i assume your shift points are based on peak power production since you are talking about drag racing. The less amount of times you have to shift the better for sure. The Dog Box is just about in line with that. Honestly, I think a 4.11 final drive would do you wonders alone, without needing to go inside the trans. Also, a WOTBOX will easily knock .5 seconds off of an 12 sec et. The EVO trans is really not designed well for drag racing. It shines in tight corners where it can easily be kept in the sweet spot. You have to remember that transmission gear ratios are designed around the specific power of the engine and its peak power rpm.

[A4 TSCHUSS]

Many people run the B5 A4 transmission that have good power (they are cheaper to replace and you will be replacing them when you break yours) which has different gearing (longer 4th and 5th), and as for the post above:

very well suited to an 11ish second trap time as it will put you right at the top of 4th according to your shift point of 7500-

You won't be at the top of 4th with a B5 A4 tranny for sure, I can't remember how it was with my B6 A4 tranny, I believe I am around 6200rpm (my limiter is at 8000 and I shift around 7800) when I have crossed the line so far at the 1/4 mile. My car will do right at 150mph in 4th at 8000rpm for reference and I think 7500 is at 140mph.

[iloveturbo]

For the price involved, get a new car if you want a drag car-seriously.

True to some degree but then, we are assuming we are sticking with this platform because that's what we love. As for the Dog box, it's out of the question. It's not suited for daily purpose.

Many people run the B5 A4 transmission that have good power (they are cheaper to replace and you will be replacing them when you break yours) which has different gearing (longer 4th and 5th)

David, based on your experiences you would say taller 4th helped your time?

**********************-

Now, does anyone happen to know the maximum operating temperature is like in 01A /01E transmission?

Please help as this would greatly affect the type of surface coating we would need to apply. Thank you in advance.

-Howard

[A4 TSCHUSS]

No I would say the b5 tranny hurt the time, gear is to long and car is lower in the rpm band going through the traps. Another example I can give you is Mike Hood swapped a b5 2.8 transmission (even longer gearing than b5 1.8t, more closely resembling the b5 s4) out of his car for the b5 1.8t again and gained like 7mph and almost a half second if I remember right.

No matter what you do you are going to have to shift to 4th so I would want the shortest gears to get there.

[dougyfresh]

Now, does anyone happen to know the maximum operating temperature is like in 01A /01E transmission?

Please help as this would greatly affect the type of surface coating we would need to apply. Thank you in advance.

considering Redline MT90 has a flash point of 465F then I'd probably assume nothing higher than that. Maybe estimate 500F to be conservative? Otherwise, I have no idea. I do know the case is too hot to touch after many hours of usage.

[dwalmop]

OP, what source did you find all of your ratios from?

[iloveturbo]

considering Redline MT90 has a flash point of 465F then I'd probably assume nothing higher than that. Maybe estimate 500F to be conservative? Otherwise, I have no idea. I do know the case is too hot to touch after many hours of usage.

Doug, Thanks for the info. That makes sense.

No I would say the b5 tranny hurt the time, gear is to long and car is lower in the rpm band going through the traps. Another example I can give you is Mike Hood swapped a b5 2.8 transmission (even longer gearing than b5 1.8t, more closely resembling the b5 s4) out of his car for the b5 1.8t again and gained like 7mph and almost a half second if I remember right.

No matter what you do you are going to have to shift to 4th so I would want the shortest gears to get there.

So shorter gears are better (3rd and 4th). Are you trapping around 116~120mph with your new Precision turbo?

OP, what source did you find all of your ratios from?

Audigeeks

[A4 TSCHUSS]

116.8mph with my 30r, I had lots of clutch/tranny problems when I went once with new turbo.

[Haenszel20v]

I'm interested in helping to make a more even spread(ratio-wise), affordable gearset for 01e's if anyone knows a company that can help. I would love a short 1-2 and 2-3 drop. These cars would be a LOT more competitive then. No sense in even screwing around with 01a's if you're trying to make a strong gearset.

The AA set would be great, but anything over $5k is too much.

I believe clint knew some guy............ he never came back with any info though........ ???

[Kamin]

I'm interested in helping to make a more even spread(ratio-wise), affordable gearset for 01e's if anyone knows a company that can help. I would love a short 1-2 and 2-3 drop. These cars would be a LOT more competitive then. No sense in even screwing around with 01a's if you're trying to make a strong gearset.

Why not the 01A?

[iloveturbo]

I'm interested in helping to make a more even spread(ratio-wise), affordable gearset for 01e's if anyone knows a company that can help. I would love a short 1-2 and 2-3 drop. These cars would be a LOT more competitive then. No sense in even screwing around with 01a's if you're trying to make a strong gearset.

The AA set would be great, but anything over $5k is too much.

I believe clint knew some guy............ he never came back with any info though........ ???

Brian, if you are offered a chance with full custom gear set for 01E. What ratio will you go with for 1.8T, 2.7T, and your VR6T.

-Howard

[iloveturbo]

Why not the 01A?

After a brief conversation with David and checking out his threads [search under his name, title: transmission]. I think 01A may not be the best candidate for gear buildup. The output shaft could be the weak link, not just the gear itself (to my understanding.)

-Howard

[Kamin]

I just read about that in another thread actually. That sucks.

[Haenszel20v]

Why not the 01A?

at stated earlier the width of the gears simply isn't there. No matter what you do they're going to break because each gear itself isn't wide enough(less material).

Brian, if you are offered a chance with full custom gear set for 01E. What ratio will you go with for 1.8T, 2.7T, and your VR6T.

-Howard

I'm not sure right now. Looking at the AA one it seems to be pretty good, although it requires 4 shifts which isn't the greatest.

PAR has 2 sets ** the first of which I believe to be what AA is selling.

Ratios:


- Option 1: 3.10, 2.18, 1.57, 1.18, 0.96, 0.85
- Option 2: 3.10, 1.92, 1.31, 0.95


option 2 has a WICKED spread to keep the quarter in 4 gears(148mph in 4th at 7500). The problem with this is that it still has a ~2800rpm 1->2 and 2383rpm 2->3 drop. Getting first below 2500 and 3->4 closer to 2000rpm drop would help significantly. Obviously brings us right back to the issue of having to shift into 5th again though.

[drjonez]

Some great info here, I'm save those images now!

What are you trap speeds? Best 60'? Your 19s aren't helping I'd imagine...

A few thoughts looking at ratios- the first to second RPM drop may be putting you out of the powerband, which will kill your ET. Other than that, you're going to be shifting to 4th regardless of what transmission you're using. Keep the RPM drops reasonable.

[Haenszel20v]

This might work. Keep stock 5th and 6th so 5th doesn't max out at 147(at 7500), and would cut the cost down not having to buy 2 extra gears. Damn close to evo gearing which has been proven to work well with the same powerband.

3.1 2226 46
2.18 2099 65
1.57 1863 90
1.18 2034 120
0.86 1570 164
0.68 - - - 207

4.11

I dunno, just throwing around things in my head.

Sorry, I can't upload screenshots at work. This is all I got.

[dougyfresh]

I believe clint knew some guy............ he never came back with any info though........ ???

Wasn't that Jim? http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/305365

Or are you thinking of someone altogether different?

[Haenszel20v]

Wasn't that Jim? http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/305365

Or are you thinking of someone altogether different?

I dunno, Clint was all "Yo bro, I got dis dood in in china dat knows this dood who owns a gear factory, he's totally down bro" one day..... never heard anything more.

[dougyfresh]

I dunno, Clint was all "Yo bro, I got dis dood in in china dat knows this dood who owns a gear factory, he's totally down bro" one day..... never heard anything more.

Now you have heard.. Its the OP in this thread


(hahaha.. I can totally see Clint saying that in those words. Complete with the two 'in's. haha)

[dwalmop]

Audigeeks[/QUOTE]

Thanks - I've been trying to do some research myself.

[vinny.dtw]

I dunno, Clint was all "Yo bro, I got dis dood in in china dat knows this dood who owns a gear factory, he's totally down bro" one day..... never heard anything more.

raf out roud

[iloveturbo]

I dunno, Clint was all "Yo bro, I got dis dood in in china dat knows this dood who owns a gear factory, he's totally down bro" one day..... never heard anything more.

Taiwan... not China... but whaeva that "dood" Clint iz referring to would be me yo... (in Clint's voice)

This might work. Keep stock 5th and 6th so 5th doesn't max out at 147(at 7500), and would cut the cost down not having to buy 2 extra gears. Damn close to evo gearing which has been proven to work well with the same powerband.

3.1 2226 46
2.18 2099 65
1.57 1863 90
1.18 2034 120
0.86 1570 164
0.68 - - - 207

4.11

I dunno, just throwing around things in my head.

Sorry, I can't upload screenshots at work. This is all I got.

Brian, that looks good. But for the pure performance perspective, I say AA dog box ratio is pretty close to optimal for quarter mile.

-Howard

[Sales@RAI]

FYI, doing a little more research on the subject but it appears that to do a 6 speed B6 S4 swap all you would need is the trans and linkage and every single other thing would bolt right up. They can handle some serious power

EDIT: It has a slightly longer first and second, and a shorter 3rd and 4th

[iloveturbo]

FYI, doing a little more research on the subject but it appears that to do a 6 speed B6 S4 swap all you would need is the trans and linkage and every single other thing would bolt right up. They can handle some serious power

EDIT: It has a slightly longer first and second, and a shorter 3rd and 4th

Clint, does that mean you will be joining the 01E bandwagon soon too?

Do iiiit!

-Howard

[a408]

in

[A4 TSCHUSS]

FYI, doing a little more research on the subject but it appears that to do a 6 speed B6 S4 swap all you would need is the trans and linkage and every single other thing would bolt right up. They can handle some serious power

EDIT: It has a slightly longer first and second, and a shorter 3rd and 4th

Pretty sure Jeff Lee has the B6 S4 tranny in his car, he could tell you for sure what needs to be swapped and how it works. The gearing is the same (final drive was, 3.89) but is the rear diff the same as in size wise unlike the B5 S4 how the front is longer? And the axle connection points are the same size or are pressed in like the A4s and can be swapped with ours?

[AfourQ]

FYI, doing a little more research on the subject but it appears that to do a 6 speed B6 S4 swap all you would need is the trans and linkage and every single other thing would bolt right up. They can handle some serious power

EDIT: It has a slightly longer first and second, and a shorter 3rd and 4th

That is what i want to use as well! Not so easy to find at a reasonable price.....could always steal my wife's though :P....

[dougyfresh]

Clint, does that mean you will be joining the 01E bandwagon soon too?

Do iiiit!

-Howard

No, because the B6 S4 is not an 01E.

FYI, doing a little more research on the subject but it appears that to do a 6 speed B6 S4 swap all you would need is the trans and linkage and every single other thing would bolt right up. They can handle some serious power

EDIT: It has a slightly longer first and second, and a shorter 3rd and 4th

You need shift linkage, shifter, trans, trans mount, prop shaft and maybe front driveshafts (not sure on that one). Rear diff should be the same as your 5spd.

[dougyfresh]

Pretty sure Jeff Lee has the B6 S4 tranny in his car, he could tell you for sure what needs to be swapped and how it works. The gearing is the same (final drive was, 3.89) but is the rear diff the same as in size wise unlike the B5 S4 how the front is longer? And the axle connection points are the same size or are pressed in like the A4s and can be swapped with ours?

Jeff has an 01E.

[Dan[FN]6262]

isnt the B6S4 trans a 01X or something?

[iloveturbo]

No, because the B6 S4 is not an 01E.

Opps, my bad. Thank you for clearing it up.

isnt the B6S4 trans a 01X or something?

0A3

Source: JHM rebuild thread

[Scotty@Advanced]

FYI, doing a little more research on the subject but it appears that to do a 6 speed B6 S4 swap all you would need is the trans and linkage and every single other thing would bolt right up. They can handle some serious power

But not nearly as much as the 01E. Also the 01E was installed in the B6, so you can use those parts to make it a drop in.

[vintagespin]

Ugh so much misinformation with transmissions, it makes my head hurt. Not saying I know anything about 'em, just that everyone is posting something different for gear ratios, final drives, transmission codes, and requirements for swaps. I guess I'm just stating the obvious though.

[Scotty@Advanced]

at stated earlier the width of the gears simply isn't there. No matter what you do they're going to break because each gear itself isn't wide enough(less material).

I'm not sure right now. Looking at the AA one it seems to be pretty good, although it requires 4 shifts which isn't the greatest.

PAR has 2 sets ** the first of which I believe to be what AA is selling.

Ratios:


- Option 1: 3.10, 2.18, 1.57, 1.18, 0.96, 0.85
- Option 2: 3.10, 1.92, 1.31, 0.95


option 2 has a WICKED spread to keep the quarter in 4 gears(148mph in 4th at 7500). The problem with this is that it still has a ~2800rpm 1->2 and 2383rpm 2->3 drop. Getting first below 2500 and 3->4 closer to 2000rpm drop would help significantly. Obviously brings us right back to the issue of having to shift into 5th again though.

Yes we have PAR make all our custom stuff but that is about to change, for the better and less expensive.

I've put the following ratios in a few cars that look very good on paper.. These work GREAT for the larger engines that have some torque, but the high first gear might be detrimental to a 1.8. The 4th gear is just tall enough to avoid a shift into 5th with a slightly elevated rev limiter.

First 2.8
Second 1.75
third 1.23
Fourth .97
5th .81
6th .68

The cost for one of these with the stock S4 5th and 6th gears is right near $5,000 bucks.

[Haenszel20v]

Ugh so much misinformation with transmissions, it makes my head hurt. Not saying I know anything about 'em, just that everyone is posting something different for gear ratios, final drives, transmission codes, and requirements for swaps. I guess I'm just stating the obvious though.

I don't see much misinformation at all besides speaking of the b6 s4 trans which was like two posts. This is a brainstorming thread about creating a better gearbox.

[dougyfresh]

I don't see much misinformation at all besides speaking of the b6 s4 trans which was like two posts. This is a brainstorming thread about creating a better gearbox.

and guess who started that?

[Scotty@Advanced]

Our thermometer registers 210-230 degrees on our test bench with no air cooling at a 8KW load and 3500 rpm. Under abuse 300 degree temps are likely not out of the usual.

[dougyfresh]

Our thermometer registers 210-230 degrees on our test bench with no air cooling at a 8KW load and 3500 rpm. Under abuse 300 degree temps are likely not out of the usual.

I was a little too conservative then. Not a bad first guess though.

Glad you are contributing to this thread, Scotty. Your expertise is warrantied.

[vintagespin]

I don't see much misinformation at all besides speaking of the b6 s4 trans which was like two posts. This is a brainstorming thread about creating a better gearbox.

I didn't mean this thread specifically. It was more of a blanket statement for what I've seen in the B6 section.