Interesting Article on AWD vs. FWD in the snow...

[DLSJ5]

It was the infamous Jet Jockey that said "Even Audi knows FWD sucks" LOL, however according to some recent testing done by Car and Driver, FWD or RWD may be a safer bet in the snow, that is with the addition of snow tires. Don't get me wrong, I love AWD and I'm not gonna mock or put down what I don't have, but I choose FWD for a couple reasons on the A4 1.8t, 1 being I don't need it here in Socal, and 2 because of the weight factor, just my personal choice. If there was a Bi turbo V6 or V8 turning all 4 wheels then that's different. This one's for you Jet.



Car and Driver testing of FWD vs. AWD

[A4Jared]

<sigh> Stop trying to justify buying FWD Drew...

[Bossman]

Nothing I don't know already. AWD is still more fun.

[DLSJ5]

Originally posted by A4Jared
<sigh> Stop trying to justify buying FWD Drew...

In no way am I doing that, just passing on some interesting information. Now trade your car in and get a 6 speed.

[Silence]

Hmm. I all ready got from skimming thru that article, is that FWD responds well to snow tires, but quattro with snow tires is better overall. What am I missing?

[davidkae]

yo drew! awd rules....lol but your fwd will always smoke me...ever finish the DV relocation?

[DLSJ5]

Originally posted by Bossman
Nothing I don't know already. AWD is still more fun.

Cool, how is it more fun though? I didn't know it, I always thought that AWD would outperform FWD in the snow and it still does in a few areas.

[DLSJ5]

Originally posted by Silence
Hmm. I all ready got from skimming thru that article, is that FWD responds well to snow tires, but quattro with snow tires is better overall. What am I missing?

AWD had better acceleration in the snow, and climbing a certain grade, but in handeling and braking times, FWD and RWD was a bit better, i.e. lower times.

[A4Jared]

Originally posted by DLSJ5
In no way am I doing that, just passing on some interesting information. Now trade your car in and get a 6 speed.

haha, when the time comes I will do that. Probably when I'm done with school and live down in FL. BTW, I think I may be able to get the Dahlback s/w + injectors upgrade earlier (maybe March 14th) due to some, ahem, recent financial discoveries I'M SOOOOO EXCITED.

Hows that dv relocation going?

[DLSJ5]

Originally posted by davidkae
yo drew! awd rules....lol but your fwd will always smoke me...ever finish the DV relocation?

I'm having someone make a custom T fitting the Forge one was too big. Should be soon though. You gonna head down to that GTG next Saturday?

[A4Jared]

Originally posted by DLSJ5
AWD had better acceleration in the snow, and climbing a certain grade, but in handeling and braking times, FWD and RWD was a bit better, i.e. lower times.

I can vouch for that. My mother's old E320 was pretty decent with the braking whereas I was pretty dissappointed in how long it took my car to brake in the little snow we got here in MD. However handling?? How does that make sense, RWD just slides around in the snow...

[davidkae]

Sweet... let me know how the relocation goes...ill try to make it but most likely i cant. I have work so yea....depending on how far the meet is maybe ill swing by....

Originally posted by DLSJ5
I'm having someone make a custom T fitting the Forge one was too big. Should be soon though. You gonna head down to that GTG next Saturday?

[DLSJ5]

Originally posted by A4Jared
I can vouch for that. My mother's old E320 was pretty decent with the braking whereas I was pretty dissappointed in how long it took my car to brake in the little snow we got here in MD. However handling?? How does that make sense, RWD just slides around in the snow...

In the Slalom FWD and RWD had slightly better times. Here's the quote:

"As we found on the skidpad, winter tires again showed roughly double the dynamic handling advantage that four-wheel drive offers. On stock tires, the Audi Quattro was just 5.5 percent quicker accelerating through the cones than the stock fwd A6, but the combination of fwd and winter tires boosted performance by 12.6 percent. Slowing through the cones, the 4wd A6 on stock tires was slower and more difficult to control than the fwd A6 on winter rubber. It was more likely to slide sideways, perhaps due to its added mass. The 4MATIC system upped the E320's average slalom speed by 2.5 percent, but mounting winter tires on the rwd E320 yielded a 4.7-percent boost over the stock rwd E320."

[A4Jared]

I sorta glazed over that article. I don't understand why they are not comparing apples to apples. They seem to be only commenting on quattro with stock tires vs. FWD with winters. But then again, I'm glazing over this info...

[DLSJ5]

Originally posted by A4Jared
I sorta glazed over that article. I don't understand why they are not comparing apples to apples. They seem to be only commenting on quattro with stock tires vs. FWD with winters. But then again, I'm glazing over this info...

The compare apples to apples, they do testing with both stock and winter tires.

[Silence]

ya, the quattro was on stock tires, like I said before. FWD responds better to snow tires than quattro, which is understandable, but quattro is still better overall with comparably equipped setup.

[HighPSI]

it seems to me that the article basically says that awd w/snow tires is best in accel, handling, braking, etc.., but that fwd w/snows is better at braking and handling than awd w/o snows

however, i've gotta say that my own experience, and i've driven in lotsa snow in both awd, fwd, and rwd, all with snow tires on, that awd still owns in all departments, fwd wasnt bad, rwd with snows is still only a drive only if you have to proposition in a bad N.E. snow storm

[DLSJ5]

Originally posted by Silence
ya, the quattro was on stock tires, like I said before. FWD responds better to snow tires than quattro, which is understandable, but quattro is still better overall with comparably equipped setup.

Actually you're wrong, with stock tires FWD still outperformed, albiet minimally, AWD. Look at the graphs again, FWD has lower times in the skidpad and slalom. Why would FWD respond better with snow tires than AWD? In the skidpad, the AWD and FWD were a tie with winter tires.

[DLSJ5]

Originally posted by HighPSI
it seems to me that the article basically says that awd w/snow tires is best in accel, handling, braking, etc.., but that fwd w/snows is better at braking and handling than awd w/o snows

however, i've gotta say that my own experience, and i've driven in lotsa snow in both awd, fwd, and rwd, all with snow tires on, that awd still owns in all departments, fwd wasnt bad, rwd with snows is still only a drive only if you have to proposition in a bad N.E. snow storm

Matt, the article doesn't say that, it's says the FWD is better in stoping and in handeling with both stock and snow tires, in the skidpad it's a tie with winter tires though. But that AWD is better in Acceleration and climbing. Fair enough, I'm only posting the article because it's interesting and people grenade FWD all the time, just showing that some real world testing shows otherwise.

[HighPSI]

Originally posted by DLSJ5
Actually you're wrong, with stock tires FWD still outperformed, albiet minimally, AWD. Look at the graphs again, FWD has lower times in the skidpad and slalom. Why would FWD respond better with snow tires than AWD?

i dont think so drew, on the skidpad, FWD on stock tires- MB E320: .30, AUDI A6: .28; AWD on stock tires- MB E320: .32, AUDI A6: .31

and on slalom

FWD on stock tires- MB E320: 27.62, AUDI A6: 27.7
AWD on stock tires- MB E320: 28.32, AUDI A6: 27.92

[Silence]

Originally posted by DLSJ5
Actually you're wrong, with stock tires FWD still outperformed, albiet minimally, AWD. Look at the graphs again, FWD has lower times in the skidpad and slalom. Why would FWD respond better with snow tires than AWD? In the skidpad, the AWD and FWD were a tie with winter tires.

Drew,

It's MPH and lateral G's, not time. Higher is better. AWD performs better in both those tests.

[DLSJ5]

Originally posted by Silence
Drew,

It's MPH, not time. Higher is better. AWD performs better in both those tests.

Matt, David, my bad, you're right I'm reading some of this completely wrong. Still this does chip away at the myth that FWD sucks! With winter tires they are tied in the skidpad, and are pretty close with stock tires in the slalom, almost a wash. It's suprising to me that FWD would perform as well as it did, wouldn't you guys agree?

[aussie_s4]

Originally posted by DLSJ5
In the Slalom FWD and RWD had slightly better times.

No, they didn't have better times. Their percentage improvement was better.

"As we found on the skidpad, winter tires again showed roughly double the dynamic handling advantage that four-wheel drive offers. On stock tires, the Audi Quattro was just 5.5 percent quicker accelerating through the cones than the stock fwd A6, but the combination of fwd and winter tires boosted performance by 12.6 percent. Slowing through the cones, the 4wd A6 on stock tires was slower and more difficult to control than the fwd A6 on winter rubber. It was more likely to slide sideways, perhaps due to its added mass

Idiots, they are on stock tires, of course they are going to slide sideways on the skidpad!

The 4MATIC system upped the E320's average slalom speed by 2.5 percent, but mounting winter tires on the rwd E320 yielded a 4.7-percent boost over the stock rwd E320."

I have quattro with snow tires, so how am I at a disadvantage compared to FWD or RWD with snow tires? They are just saying that the percentage improvement of snow tires on FWD is greater than the percentage improvement of snow tires on AWD, and that's because AWD is already better.

They are comparing AWD/stock tires with FWD/snow tires, so how are they comparing apples with apples?

BTW, I did an ice/snow autocross 2 weeks ago, and my stock S4 with Nokian RSI's consistently out-accelerated chipped/downpiped S4's running all seasons. The snow tires definitely provide an advantage! On the other hand, FWD cars with snow tires also had poor acceleration.

[HighPSI]

Originally posted by DLSJ5
Matt, David, my bad, you're right I'm reading some of this completely wrong. Still this does chip away at the myth that FWD sucks!

lol, i had i feeling , no prob bro, it does however look as though fwd has an advantage in braking when comparing fwd with snow tires vs. AWD without snowtires

[aussie_s4]

Originally posted by HighPSI
lol, i had i feeling , no prob bro, it does however look as though fwd has an advantage in braking when comparing fwd with snow tires vs. AWD without snowtires

FWD and AWD cars all have 4 sets of brakes. Their conclusion just proves that snow tires brake better on snow, than summer tires on snow. That's no great leap forward in scientific knowledge

[Silence]

Originally posted by DLSJ5
Matt, David, my bad, you're right I'm reading some of this completely wrong. Still this does chip away at the myth that FWD sucks! With winter tires they are tied in the skidpad, and are pretty close with stock tires in the slalom, almost a wash. It's suprising to me that FWD would perform as well as it did, wouldn't you guys agree?

Not really surprising, having driven both cars in the snow myself alot snowboarding. FWD definitely performs well, just not as well as quattro. I just personally don't believe the weight and DT loss of quattro out weighs the benefits all around.

[HighPSI]

Originally posted by aussie_s4
That just proves that snow tires brake better on snow, than summer tires on snow. That's no great leap forward in scientific knowledge

never said it was...

however, it also "proves" that either a. snow tires on a fwd improve braking more than what the addition of 4wd does...and/or b. 4wd really doesnt offer much in improved braking.

[HighPSI]

Originally posted by DLSJ5
It's suprising to me that FWD would perform as well as it did, wouldn't you guys agree?

to be honest, i drove a fwd 2nd gen integra through many a terrible winters in CT, using snow tires, and i never really had a problem, the only difference was that i couldnt carry the speeds that those with awd could and it was definately easier to get stuck...

[DLSJ5]

Originally posted by aussie_s4
No, they didn't have better times. Their percentage improvement was better.
Idiots, they are on stock tires, of course they are going to slide sideways on the skidpad!I have quattro with snow tires, so how am I at a disadvantage compared to FWD or RWD with snow tires? They are just saying that the percentage improvement of snow tires on FWD is greater than the percentage improvement of snow tires on AWD, and that's because AWD is already better.

They are comparing AWD/stock tires with FWD/snow tires, so how are they comparing apples with apples?

BTW, I did an ice/snow autocross 2 weeks ago, and my stock S4 with Nokian RSI's consistently out-accelerated chipped/downpiped S4's running all seasons. The snow tires definitely provide an advantage! On the other hand, FWD cars with snow tires also had poor acceleration.

My bad, I was incorrect in some of my observations, it's still early here on the west coast, , however it still shows that FWD can do very well in some areas compared to AWD. This in no way suggests that FWD is better than AWD in the snow. Frankly I was suprised by the article and the results and how close they were with snow tires, this is why I posted them. In my findings I got a bit overzealous.

Our own experiences are what we go by, sounds like you just might be a better driver than those chipped S4's, on a track the driver is a big factor. FWD has poor acceleration in the snow? that's an understatment, LOL, actually my car spins the tires regardless of the weather, my 60' times suck!

[aussie_s4]

Originally posted by HighPSI
however, it also "proves" that either a. snow tires on a fwd improve braking more than what the addition of 4wd does...and/or b. 4wd really doesnt offer much in improved braking.

b. Well, 4wd is for driving. Brakes are for braking and all cars have 4 brakes

Many SUV owners fail to remember that, and drive on snow like they are invincible.

[Vortec4800]

Originally posted by Silence
Not really surprising, having driven both cars in the snow myself alot snowboarding. FWD definitely performs well, just not as well as quattro. I just personally don't believe the weight and DT loss of quattro out weighs the benefits all around.

I don't know, I drove some pretty worked A4 Quattros and they all felt quite slow. They just didn't stand out in my mind as anything special. I'm very confident that the FWD is quicker than the AWD variant. Really the only problem is getting tracting, but once you have it you're gone. The DT loss was horrid.

To be honest, I'm sick of hearing about how AWD is the greatest invention since the wheel itself, and somehow the word "Quattro" makes it even better. Many other cars also have AWD and they are just as good as the Quattro system, there really isn't all that much to it. I also hear people thinking they can drive however they want in whatever weather they want just because they have AWD, when like others have said - all cars have 4 brakes. When isht goes down in front of you, there will be no added force to bring you to a hault.

</rant>

[DLSJ5]

Originally posted by Vortec4800
I don't know, I drove some pretty worked A4 Quattros and they all felt quite slow. They just didn't stand out in my mind as anything special. I'm very confident that the FWD is quicker than the AWD variant. Really the only problem is getting tracting, but once you have it you're gone. The DT loss was horrid.

To be honest, I'm sick of hearing about how AWD is the greatest invention since the wheel itself, and somehow the word "Quattro" makes it even better. Many other cars also have AWD and they are just as good as the Quattro system, there really isn't all that much to it. I also hear people thinking they can drive however they want in whatever weather they want just because they have AWD, when like others have said - all cars have 4 brakes. When isht goes down in front of you, there will be no added force to bring you to a hault.

</rant>

I'm with you Brother.

[HighPSI]

Originally posted by aussie_s4
b. Well, 4wd is for driving. Brakes are for braking and all cars have 4 brakes

Many SUV owners fail to remember that, and drive on snow like they are invincible.

couldnt agree more

[Silence]

Originally posted by DLSJ5
I'm with you Brother.

AWWWW! Lookie there. Solidarity between the FWD guys. I'm touched....

[A4NCAR]

Originally posted by DLSJ5
It was the infamous Jet Jockey that said "Even Audi knows FWD sucks" LOL, however according to some recent testing done by Car and Driver, FWD or RWD may be a safer bet in the snow, that is with the addition of snow tires. Don't get me wrong, I love AWD and I'm not gonna mock or put down what I don't have, but I choose FWD for a couple reasons on the A4 1.8t, 1 being I don't need it here in Socal, and 2 because of the weight factor, just my personal choice. If there was a Bi turbo V6 or V8 turning all 4 wheels then that's different. This one's for you Jet.



Car and Driver testing of FWD vs. AWD

"I bought FWD.... whaaaaaa"


I don't have snow/snow tire experience with AWD (but I do have New England winter experience with VW FWD), as well as having driven nothing but VW FWD since '85, and I can honestly state that there is a world of difference in terms of traction/control. I feel literally "glued" to the road surface with quattro, whereas with the FWD, all I can remember is constantly having the front wheels spin, loosing traction/control, unable to take turns as fast as I can now,..etc. Tires play a role too, but it's still a world of difference IMO. With FWD, I never felt like the car was really "planted" to the road, unlike in my A4 quattro. And I could never take freeway interchange ramps at 100+ mph in a fwd. My VW FWD experience was decent, but in no way near what the quattro is. quattro also makes me a much more confident driver, because it only improves my driving skills.

[davidkae]

lol...

Originally posted by Silence
AWWWW! Lookie there. Solidarity between the FWD guys. I'm touched....

[DLSJ5]

Originally posted by A4NCAR
"I bought FWD.... whaaaaaa"


I don't have snow/snow tire experience with AWD (but I do have New England winter experience with VW FWD), as well as having driven nothing but VW FWD since '85, and I can honestly state that there is a world of difference in terms of traction/control. I feel literally "glued" to the road surface with quattro, whereas with the FWD, all I can remember is constantly having the front wheels spin, loosing traction/control, unable to take turns as fast as I can now,..etc. Tires play a role too, but it's still a world of difference IMO. With FWD, I never felt like the car was really "planted" to the road, unlike in my A4 quattro. And I could never take freeway interchange ramps at 100+ mph in a fwd. My VW FWD experience was decent, but in no way near what the quattro is. quattro also makes me a much more confident driver, because it only improves my driving skills.

No whining here, I love my AUDI. I found the article on the B5 S4 forum, just thought it was interesting info. If I had it to do over again, I still wouldn't buy a Quattro B6 A4, too heavy for what I personally wanted. The B5, if much lighter and more go friendly. You're right with the B6 A4 AWD DTL and weight being moved by a mere 1.8 liters, you are literally "glued" to the road, you don't move or slid very much, but this includes going forward, as our little run demonstrated.

Personlly I don' t feel the need to take freeway interchange ramps at 100+ MPH in wet or dry conditions. Nor to weave through heavy traffic. I can weave through traffic in Honda, still doesn't mean it's faster. Bottomline is enjoy your better handeling AWD, and I'll enjoy my faster FWD.

You going to the GTG?

[Vortec4800]

Originally posted by Silence
AWWWW! Lookie there. Solidarity between the FWD guys. I'm touched....

Whatever. If Audi offered RWD I would buy that over FWD and Quattro. I'm not trying to claim that FWD is the best, it just didn't seem like the extra cost was worth the slim benefits, living in Arizona.

YOU LISTENING AUDI?! DITCH FWD AND GIVE US RWD!

[HighPSI]

if i live in az, id probably opted for the fwd too over the awd, however, in that case i probably wouldnt have got an audi...but i also think audi should make rwd as the option to awd rather than fwd

[DLSJ5]

Originally posted by Vortec4800
Whatever. If Audi offered RWD I would buy that over FWD and Quattro. I'm not trying to claim that FWD is the best, it just didn't seem like the extra cost was worth the slim benefits, living in Arizona.

YOU LISTENING AUDI?! DITCH FWD AND GIVE US RWD!

Once again, there is solidarity between the FWD Clan. RWD would be awesome, then I could do donuts once again.