Journal (605) vs Ball Bearing (GT) turbos - longevity, etc

[exorcet]

You guys know how it goes - being indecisive deciding if I want to do a 'full' GT build or 'budget' 605. Since I haven't seen any info yet from VAST regarding their GT kit (boost profile, torque @ RPM, etc) I can only assume the 605's probably offer more 'k04 like' torque in the lower RPM bands but obviously won't allow the huge top end HP numbers the GT will.

Aside from these characteristics how much more reliable are the ball bearing turbos compared to the journal bearings? Will 605's have a much shorter lifespan (in apples to apples driving style) compared to GT's? Everything I've read shows that ball bearing turbos are the way to go for reliability ** but I really don't know enough about the mechanics of turbos to know if a journal bearing can be just as reliable.

Any insight from armchair experts appreciated.

[wdbdy2000s4]

You guys know how it goes - being indecisive deciding if I want to do a 'full' GT build or 'budget' 605. Since I haven't seen any info yet from VAST regarding their GT kit (boost profile, torque @ RPM, etc) I can only assume the 605's probably offer more 'k04 like' torque in the lower RPM bands but obviously won't allow the huge top end HP numbers the GT will.

Aside from these characteristics how much more reliable are the ball bearing turbos compared to the journal bearings? Will 605's have a much shorter lifespan (in apples to apples driving style) compared to GT's? Everything I've read shows that ball bearing turbos are the way to go for reliability ** but I really don't know enough about the mechanics of turbos to know if a journal bearing can be just as reliable.

Any insight from armchair experts appreciated.

BB's are more reliable when operated outside of their efficiency range. Everyone cries about the reliability of journal bearings because they run k04s at 26psi and blow them up after 30k miles. Is there a power range you're looking for? or just blanket statements about BB vs JB?

[gearhead1186]

reliability between journal and BB CHRAs should not be your deciding factor between turbos.

should be thinking more along the lines of..

powerband
car use
cost difference
build down time

[AudiNFS]

reliability between journal and BB CHRAs should not be your deciding factor between turbos.

should be thinking more along the lines of..

powerband
car use
cost difference
build down time

I agree. Plus, most turbos last a long time if you take care of them properly and your car. I thought letting them warm up and and cool down at right times would make any turbo last a long time. Use while you drive and how often also affect the life, obviously. So as stated, reliability shouldn't be a huge factor.

[Raacerx]

BB's are more reliable when operated outside of their efficiency range. Everyone cries about the reliability of journal bearings because they run k04s at 26psi and blow them up after 30k miles.

I think this is a great and truthful statement.

[exorcet]

thanks for everyone's input so far. wdbdy that makes sense the reason for ko4/03 failures is due to 'pushing' them. I guess the follow up question would be what is 'pushing' 605's?

gearhead that's what i'm trying to weigh - cost vs use. It's a weekend / fun car so downtime irrelevant. I want something fun, pants shitting fast but overall reliable ** i.e. not push up against the limits of everything. I guess my biggest question is if VAST GT kit is a waste unless I'm going to do rods at a minimum. Is the torque curve on the 605's better than a mild GT tune (for stock short block). I guess I'm trying to justify GT's for the most power - but the more I think about use, costs involved, etc the 605's are starting to stand out ** which led me to wonder if the journals were a big negative but it sounds like as long as they're operated within efficiency range they'll last long if cared for.

Basically I'd be happy with close to 500whp and that seems quite doable with the 605's and until i see more info on the GT's i can only assume the 605's probably have better low/midrange torque but that is just speculation. I like the VAST GT kit because it comes with the cart and the horse - DP's, manifold, fueling, etc and comes out just about $1k more than 605's (all equivalent except DP's and manifold..which is worth $1k to me). In summary, I probably should wait for more GT information before making a decision ** if a 'mild' tune for stock block can have the same or better power characteristics than 605's, with the future ability to 'crank it up' should i build the block, that might be the best option. If they trade off quite a bit of low / mid range compared to 605's it might just be best to go 605's. Such difficult decisions..lol.

[spokismB5S4]

BB's are more reliable when operated outside of their efficiency range. Everyone cries about the reliability of journal bearings because they run k04s at 26psi and blow them up after 30k miles. Is there a power range you're looking for? or just blanket statements about BB vs JB?

Not to threadjack or anything, but this made me wonder... Why can 1.8t owners run 1 k04 at 20psi and not blow it when we run two at ~24psi and thats all they are good for before they are prob gonna blow?

[Raacerx]

Not to threadjack or anything, but this made me wonder... Why can 1.8t owners run 1 k04 at 20psi and not blow it when we run two at ~24psi and thats all they are good for before they are prob gonna blow?

A large amount of it has to do with the location of the turbos and their associated piping. 1.8T don't have to worry about nearly as much heat as we do, since the turbo is much more accessible and subject to more airflow. The exhaust manifold isn't resting against the inlet pipes, and running 2 turbos @ 24psi isn't like you are running 2 independent turbos @ 12psi each; not that simple . The oil line design isn't flawed from the get-go like the S4 is. Also, a K04-015 is different then a K04-025/026. Besides, many people run over 50k miles on their K04 at 24psi; its largely dependent on your supporting mods, what you are doing, your maintenance, etc.

Most of the turbo's that I see blow, are from busted compressor blades and oil seals; not from the journal bearing actually failing or the wheels separating from the CHRA

EDIT: PS. People running 20psi on a 1.8T K04 blow them too. Check out any forum. Most last 50k+. Some don't. Just like on here.

[Tarmac]

thanks for everyone's input so far. wdbdy that makes sense the reason for ko4/03 failures is due to 'pushing' them. I guess the follow up question would be what is 'pushing' 605's?

gearhead that's what i'm trying to weigh - cost vs use. It's a weekend / fun car so downtime irrelevant. I want something fun, pants shitting fast but overall reliable ** i.e. not push up against the limits of everything. I guess my biggest question is if VAST GT kit is a waste unless I'm going to do rods at a minimum. Is the torque curve on the 605's better than a mild GT tune (for stock short block). I guess I'm trying to justify GT's for the most power - but the more I think about use, costs involved, etc the 605's are starting to stand out ** which led me to wonder if the journals were a big negative but it sounds like as long as they're operated within efficiency range they'll last long if cared for.

Basically I'd be happy with close to 500whp and that seems quite doable with the 605's and until i see more info on the GT's i can only assume the 605's probably have better low/midrange torque but that is just speculation. I like the VAST GT kit because it comes with the cart and the horse - DP's, manifold, fueling, etc and comes out just about $1k more than 605's (all equivalent except DP's and manifold..which is worth $1k to me). In summary, I probably should wait for more GT information before making a decision ** if a 'mild' tune for stock block can have the same or better power characteristics than 605's, with the future ability to 'crank it up' should i build the block, that might be the best option. If they trade off quite a bit of low / mid range compared to 605's it might just be best to go 605's. Such difficult decisions..lol.

I'm in the same position as you (VAST GT or EPL 605's) except my car will be used for the Track, Hill Climb events & as a Weekend Car. You are asking the same questions I have in mind. I will do as you say wait for more info on the VAST GT Kits. But don’t hold your breath .
For some reason that VAST GT Post has gone absolutely completely totally lifeless! DEAD

[quattro pro]

Not to threadjack or anything, but this made me wonder... Why can 1.8t owners run 1 k04 at 20psi and not blow it when we run two at ~24psi and thats all they are good for before they are prob gonna blow?

Both turbos make (approximately) the same boost preessure in the Biturbo configuration, its not like they each make 12psi. So I think the answer is: because 24 > 20.

[gearhead1186]

gearhead that's what i'm trying to weigh - cost vs use. It's a weekend / fun car so downtime irrelevant. I want something fun, pants shitting fast but overall reliable ** i.e. not push up against the limits of everything. I guess my biggest question is if VAST GT kit is a waste unless I'm going to do rods at a minimum. Is the torque curve on the 605's better than a mild GT tune (for stock short block). I guess I'm trying to justify GT's for the most power - but the more I think about use, costs involved, etc the 605's are starting to stand out ** which led me to wonder if the journals were a big negative but it sounds like as long as they're operated within efficiency range they'll last long if cared for.

Basically I'd be happy with close to 500whp and that seems quite doable with the 605's and until i see more info on the GT's i can only assume the 605's probably have better low/midrange torque but that is just speculation. I like the VAST GT kit because it comes with the cart and the horse - DP's, manifold, fueling, etc and comes out just about $1k more than 605's (all equivalent except DP's and manifold..which is worth $1k to me). In summary, I probably should wait for more GT information before making a decision ** if a 'mild' tune for stock block can have the same or better power characteristics than 605's, with the future ability to 'crank it up' should i build the block, that might be the best option. If they trade off quite a bit of low / mid range compared to 605's it might just be best to go 605's. Such difficult decisions..lol.

if you run 605s im assuming it will be on a stock bottom end. if so, you wont come close to pushing it since your limiting factor will be the strength of the stock rods, not the compressor wheel. if you get Vast's "600hp" kit, whatever that may be, you will also be running on a stock bottom end since 600chp is equal to about 450whp, which is easily done on a stock bottom end. to me, that seems like a comparable decision there. im biased to the 605s. billet wheel, simple internal wastegate and engineered specifically for this motor.

if you get into vast's higher kits, you will be running rods and you are comparing to the tial 770s. thats another possible decision there.

it seems like you are leaning towards the 605s except you keep comparing them to "mild" GT tunes. that doesnt make sense to me. if you want 500whp or close to it, you want 605s or a small gt kit.. 2554s or 2560s. Again if you want close to 500whp then chose a turbo that will reach that power goal with respectable spool characteristics. Why pick a bigger turbo and "tune it down" to your power goal(your reference to mild GT tunes). you will end up with a very narrow power band. choose a power goal first and then go from there.

[phila_dot]

Not to get off topic, but the Vast kits include fueling? I have seen this in posts from other members but don't think I ever saw Vast actually say that. Can anyone confirm that?

[gearhead1186]

Not to get off topic, but the Vast kits include fueling? I have seen this in posts from other members but don't think I ever saw Vast actually say that. Can anyone confirm that?

fueling and tune cost 1200-2000 more. its in the first post on their thread.

[phila_dot]

fueling and tune cost 1200-2000 more. its in the first post on their thread.

I dont know how I missed that. I must have read that thread at least ten times. I apologize.

[gearhead1186]

I dont know how I missed that. I must have read that thread at least ten times. I apologize.

no worries

[RONDAL]

at what point do the stock rods get into failure territory power wise?

is it 500awhp? 550? 600ish?
I realize its not exactly HP that kills rods, its the torque created by the power, but im wondering if 20psi on a tial 605 kit is gonna start killing rods, or if its going to be in the safe zone still.

Obviously doing rods would be optimal, as is replacing anything when you do it right the first time. The problem is costs start to get extremely high very quickly if you dont limit what you do and dont touch

[gearhead1186]

at what point do the stock rods get into failure territory power wise?

is it 500awhp? 550? 600ish?
I realize its not exactly HP that kills rods, its the torque created by the power, but im wondering if 20psi on a tial 605 kit is gonna start killing rods, or if its going to be in the safe zone still.

Obviously doing rods would be optimal, as is replacing anything when you do it right the first time. The problem is costs start to get extremely high very quickly if you dont limit what you do and dont touch

to keep this simple, on 605s with supporting mods, you will be around 480 whp give or take with a stock bottom end. you will probably be spinning them to 25psi or so. with rods you can hit 30.

[xccess]

I like both Vast and EPL but have a hard time decide between them two, they both have a good solid reputation. one of them run internal wasted gate, one run with MBC, one has some data for their kits, the other "still in the work" but posted a lot of info for their different kits. I think I will just wait for real solid data and info from both of them while driving my tiny K04/RS6 for now

[bigern45]

just gonna be honest, and everyone else that has gone through a build and going stage 0 to stage 1 to 2 and then 2+ and then 3 and 3+.. seriously, if i could go back.. (hind site IS 20/20).. go balls out now.. just my suggestion. is there anyone out there that thinks .. "hey.. im happy with 440whp".. ???..or... " i HONESTLY dont want anymore"... ??????... idk.. i dont think so though.. IMHO.. im sure im driving Tony and the guys at EPL nuts with my bi-weekly calls about getting more out of my build. Once you go down this stage 3 path, you cant turn back brother. its impossible. it will stress you out at work, youll have nightmares that youll never forget and would make mike tyson cry, itll put stress on you and your finances , and seriously, if you are in a serious/good relationship with a woman (or man, whatever your preference is, naming no names ), it will put a MAJOR strain on it.. when your girl looks at you and asks," what do you want for your anniversary gift baby?? " .. and every answer you give her ends in ," ...for the car".. then it gets deep... this is a serious addiction now, you may need counseling. .. scratch that.. you WILL need counseling..

so if i were you and YOU/I KNOW that i will be content with <500whp.. then go stock block and TiAL 605's.. its a no brainer.. turbos well within their limits pushing the block/rods safely to its limits.. but if you get a taste, and know that 1 year after your build you want more.. (as do I).. save yourself some money and time and take MORE time, and build the BAMF beast now, not the BA beast now and the BAMF later..

seriously, my car now still shocks the hell out of EVERYBODY that rides... and sad to say.. im getting used to it....

...lol...we're a bunch of spoiled fuckin' brats...

[gearhead1186]

^^ haha rich ur power spoiled. go drive some slow cars..

[Evilevo]

just gonna be honest, and everyone else that has gone through a build and going stage 0 to stage 1 to 2 and then 2+ and then 3 and 3+.. seriously, if i could go back.. (hind site IS 20/20).. go balls out now.. just my suggestion. is there anyone out there that thinks .. "hey.. im happy with 440whp".. ???..or... " i HONESTLY dont want anymore"... ??????... idk.. i dont think so though.. IMHO.. im sure im driving Tony and the guys at EPL nuts with my bi-weekly calls about getting more out of my build. Once you go down this stage 3 path, you cant turn back brother. its impossible. it will stress you out at work, youll have nightmares that youll never forget and would make mike tyson cry, itll put stress on you and your finances , and seriously, if you are in a serious/good relationship with a woman (or man, whatever your preference is, naming no names ), it will put a MAJOR strain on it.. when your girl looks at you and asks," what do you want for your anniversary gift baby?? " .. and every answer you give her ends in ," ...for the car".. then it gets deep... this is a serious addiction now, you may need counseling. .. scratch that.. you WILL need counseling..

so if i were you and YOU/I KNOW that i will be content with <500whp.. then go stock block and TiAL 605's.. its a no brainer.. turbos well within their limits pushing the block/rods safely to its limits.. but if you get a taste, and know that 1 year after your build you want more.. (as do I).. save yourself some money and time and take MORE time, and build the BAMF beast now, not the BA beast now and the BAMF later..

seriously, my car now still shocks the hell out of EVERYBODY that rides... and sad to say.. im getting used to it....

...lol...we're a bunch of spoiled fuckin' brats...

I have to agree. Do it once and do it right. Power is VERY addicting and you just plain get used to it. I picked my car up from VAST at 20psi and it felt fast to me than. Now I am at 29psi or so and it doesn't feel fast anymore. And i can tell you that i am at a LOT more than 500awhp.

Also, as far as the VAST GT kit goes. You don't need to a larger GT28RS or GT28RS with billet wheel and tune it down. You can do the full GT kit with a GT2554 or GT2560 and still run it hard and not blow it up, with good spool characteristics. But honestly, it depends on what you want. I wanted something a bit laggier that has that O SHIT top end. Even with my lag though, i am still seeing 500AWHP at 5k and it just keeps rising.

Journal bearing turbos are using old technology, Ball Bearing turbos are the way to go. They will spool faster(everything the same besides journal or BB) and last longer in strenuous operations.

[exorcet]

I have to agree. Do it once and do it right. Power is VERY addicting and you just plain get used to it. I picked my car up from VAST at 20psi and it felt fast to me than. Now I am at 29psi or so and it doesn't feel fast anymore. And i can tell you that i am at a LOT more than 500awhp.

Also, as far as the VAST GT kit goes. You don't need to a larger GT28RS or GT28RS with billet wheel and tune it down. You can do the full GT kit with a GT2554 or GT2560 and still run it hard and not blow it up, with good spool characteristics. But honestly, it depends on what you want. I wanted something a bit laggier that has that O SHIT top end. Even with my lag though, i am still seeing 500AWHP at 5k and it just keeps rising.

Journal bearing turbos are using old technology, Ball Bearing turbos are the way to go. They will spool faster(everything the same besides journal or BB) and last longer in strenuous operations.

Yeah Bigern has a point. I already did the 'stage 3' thing a couple years ago and decided to come back after seeing all the amazing progress that's been made in just those two years. I probably should just save a while longer and go all out - complete bottom end, head work and let 'er rip. I did some more reading and searching and you're right Evilevo - it's dumb to go big and 'turn it down' the best thing to do is pick a power level, and maximize it (i.e. if I'm happy with 480whp then the 605's are perfect). I do remember.. after a couple weeks the K04's were boring to me (although I never got into meth, dyno tune, etc and I'm sure there was a lot more there I didn't extract) even though I was killing Z06's stoplight to stoplight. Might as well go all out the first go so there are no regrets.

[gearhead1186]

I have to agree. Do it once and do it right. Power is VERY addicting and you just plain get used to it. I picked my car up from VAST at 20psi and it felt fast to me than. Now I am at 29psi or so and it doesn't feel fast anymore. And i can tell you that i am at a LOT more than 500awhp.

Also, as far as the VAST GT kit goes. You don't need to a larger GT28RS or GT28RS with billet wheel and tune it down. You can do the full GT kit with a GT2554 or GT2560 and still run it hard and not blow it up, with good spool characteristics. But honestly, it depends on what you want. I wanted something a bit laggier that has that O SHIT top end. Even with my lag though, i am still seeing 500AWHP at 5k and it just keeps rising.

Journal bearing turbos are using old technology, Ball Bearing turbos are the way to go. They will spool faster(everything the same besides journal or BB) and last longer in strenuous operations.

what happens when your car is fully tuned? or my car is fully tuned? after a month u gonna throw in a 3 liter crank? and what after that? there has to be an end somewhere otherwise we will find ourselves living in a box together. i try and keep myself grounded my driving my beater around most of the time and driving around driving in my friends slow ass cars

i agree with the turbo advice which is what i was trying to say above. think long and hard and choose a goal. then pick the optimum turbo setup for ur goal... u dont pick a fancy turbo and then drastically detune it or run it way above its efficiency range.

[Evilevo]

what happens when your car is fully tuned? or my car is fully tuned? after a month u gonna throw in a 3 liter crank? and what after that? there has to be an end somewhere otherwise we will find ourselves living in a box together. i try and keep myself grounded my driving my beater around most of the time and driving around driving in my friends slow ass cars

i agree with the turbo advice which is what i was trying to say above. think long and hard and choose a goal. then pick the optimum turbo setup for ur goal... u dont pick a fancy turbo and then drastically detune it or run it way above its efficiency range.

Haha. ya. Everything has it's limits. And honestly, everyone gets used to the power, no matter how much power it is. My buddy has a Supra that made 1050RWHP. And to him it feels slow again. Shit just happens. That's why i chose a turbo set up that is good to about 950bhp. Will i ever max it out there, probably not, but if i really want to, i can go crazy with it.

Your lucky you have a beater tho, i drive my car everyday.

[bigern45]

^^ haha rich ur power spoiled. go drive some slow cars..

.. lol.. funny mike.. im actually wearing this shirt right now..


and as we speak, just bought 15 gallons of MS109 so that i can shoot for over 500 whp in my car.. so at that cost (6700¢ per 5 gallon) ill def be taking your advice and driving my old volvo, and maybe the S4 twice a week and on weekends....you know once i tune for race gas, i wont want to put 93 back in there..

btw, tony sent me a mild race gas file, im assuming its what i would be running on a regular basis with the Aquamist setup (prolly a couple more degrees of timing up top).. and even on 93.. HOLY SHIT!!

..dont tell him i told you that..

[gearhead1186]

Your lucky you have a beater tho, i drive my car everyday.

i have a love hate relationship with my car. i couldnt drive it everyday lol.

[Evilevo]

i have a love hate relationship with my car. i couldnt drive it everyday lol.

I can understand that. There are some days where I just really don't want to drive it. But i don't have the cash to buy a beater without cutting into the mandatory "B5 S4 might break" fund right now.

I haven't had a single major problem that has kept me from driving the car though in the 9k miles i have put on it in 3 months since i got back from VAST, though.

[gearhead1186]

I haven't had a single major problem that has kept me from driving the car though in the 9k miles i have put on it in 3 months since i got back from VAST, though.

thats impressive. thats prolly what i put on my car in a year. keep her running strong! ok back on topic..

[bigern45]

I can understand that. There are some days where I just really don't want to drive it. But i don't have the cash to buy a beater without cutting into the mandatory "B5 S4 might break" fund right now.

I haven't had a single major problem that has kept me from driving the car though in the 9k miles i have put on it in 3 months since i got back from VAST, though.

.. me either.. build it good and right the first time.. ive got over 10k on mine since stage 3..

[RONDAL]

the thing thats got me leaning to the tial 605 is the driveability and what i would think is decent reliability on stock internals. i've just come from a fully built car, and while fun on weekends, it wasn't practical. those who have built them know, its tough to daily drive a race car.

480-500whp on the tials with meth and proper support mods sounds like its a reliable combo.....and lets be honest with ourselves, while power is addictive, those numbers dont make for a slouch of a car

[spokismB5S4]

Once you go down this stage 3 path, you cant turn back brother. its impossible. it will stress you out at work, youll have nightmares that youll never forget and would make mike tyson cry, itll put stress on you and your finances , and seriously, if you are in a serious/good relationship with a woman (or man, whatever your preference is, naming no names ), it will put a MAJOR strain on it.. when your girl looks at you and asks," what do you want for your anniversary gift baby?? " .. and every answer you give her ends in ," ...for the car".. then it gets deep... this is a serious addiction now, you may need counseling. .. scratch that.. you WILL need counseling...

x10000000000000000

[bigern45]

the thing thats got me leaning to the tial 605 is the driveability and what i would think is decent reliability on stock internals. i've just come from a fully built car, and while fun on weekends, it wasn't practical. those who have built them know, its tough to daily drive a race car.

480-500whp on the tials with meth and proper support mods sounds like its a reliable combo.....and lets be honest with ourselves, while power is addictive, those numbers dont make for a slouch of a car

and i do agree with this statement, but im just speaking from personal experience.. ive seen videos of AMD's build with the 770's.. and i cant wait for some videos from mike once he puts his cams in.. the 770 car doesnt look like its difficult or painful to drive.. once he has 605 power on a stock block for 6 months, hes gonna be thinking about the next build..

[BITRBO]

the thing thats got me leaning to the tial 605 is the driveability and what i would think is decent reliability on stock internals. i've just come from a fully built car, and while fun on weekends, it wasn't practical. those who have built them know, its tough to daily drive a race car.

480-500whp on the tials with meth and proper support mods sounds like its a reliable combo.....and lets be honest with ourselves, while power is addictive, those numbers dont make for a slouch of a car

IDK, from all of the w/m horrors-stories lately I might even take that out if you want true "reliability"... As much as it makes sense in this SFL heat, I really don't want one more thing to worry about breaking. And maybe its an easy choice cause I'm in Miami and 95% of the year it's above 50 deg F, but E85 is a way better choice IMO. There is so more potential you can extract from E85 than with w/m, and it's like running race gas for the price of regular... Not to mention it's mostly made here in the US, and it's a much cleaner [burning] fuel for the environment; how is it not a win-win-win-win?

[gearhead1186]

IDK, from all of the w/m horrors-stories lately I might even take that out if you want true "reliability"... As much as it makes sense in this SFL heat, I really don't want one more thing to worry about breaking. And maybe its an easy choice cause I'm in Miami and 95% of the year it's above 50 deg F, but E85 is a way better choice IMO. There is so more potential you can extract from E85 than with w/m, and it's like running race gas for the price of regular... Not to mention it's mostly made here in the US, and it's a much cleaner [burning] fuel for the environment; how is it not a win-win-win-win?

If I lived in an area where I had the choice to run e85 or regular 93 Id take e85 in a heartbeat. However, if you run a failsafe aquamist w/m system as opposed to your typical vast/devils own, I would be quite comfortable calling that reliable.

[Evilevo]

If I live in an area where I had the choice to run e85 or regular 93 Id take e85 in a heartbeat. However, if you run a failsafe aquamist w/m system as opposed to your typical vast/devils own, I would be quite comfortable calling that reliable.

My snow performance kit has a good failsafe too. Kicks me to WG pressure if it senses there isn't enough flow.

But I agree, I would only run meth if it has a failsafe. Also if given the option, I'd run E85>all.

[exorcet]

wish E85 was available regularly in SoCal.. i don't think i've ever seen it

[BITRBO]

wish E85 was available regularly in SoCal.. i don't think i've ever seen it

That's just stupid. With all the hippie tree-huggers in California, you'd think everyone would have a flex-fuel vehicle... Sure there are arguments regarding carbon-footprint and all, but the bottom line is E85 emits almost 50% less greenhouse gases than gasoline. With increased demand and further advancements in technology, the U.S. Department of Energy estimates that this could be as much as 86%!!!

Seriously, with all the tuning gains (honestly, who wouldn't want 30 deg. of timing advance??) and environmental benefits, at a cheaper price than REGULAR gas... Why aren't more people using this stuff??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85

p.s. Sorry for the thread Jack OP... /rant

[AudiSportB5S4]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85

p.s. Sorry for the thread Jack OP... /rant

I think its just the fuel companies not investing into new technologies yet when they still are making absurd money on gasoline... Profit Margin>Environment. Look @ ExxonMobil's profits for example, it's insane. There has to be some incentive for them to do it, because right now they'll sit back and watch the money pile up.

[gearhead1186]

I think its just the fuel companies not investing into new technologies yet when they still are making absurd money on gasoline... Profit Margin>Environment. Look @ ExxonMobil's profits for example, it's insane. There has to be some incentive for them to do it, because right now they'll sit back and watch the money pile up.

agreed. probably isnt much if any payoff for fuel companies to start providing E85 to a bigger maket.

[Aggv]

You ppl must drive like fucking maniacs if 450+whp get old.... Im only stage2 but i drive like a reasonable adult 95% of the time, that other 5% is more than enough to 1. go to jail 2. be faster that 80% cars on the road 3. enjoy myself without worries of breaking/jail/wrecking.

f-ing kids these days...