Hill Holder Problem - you probably have it too if you have an automatic trans

[fshizzle]

I'm joining this forum b/c I'm getting super frustrated with Audi. So last year I noticed that my car would start abruptly from standstill whenever I drive up this particularly steep road near my office. It's only for AUTOMATIC transmission cars (my wife made me get it) and not the 6MT. Has nothing to do with the emergency brake. I've taken it to an Audi dealership 5 times now to no avail and even have a pending lemon law case now. I'd like to make other people aware of the problem and I'd love it if you could test it on your car if you live near a steep hill. Please respond to this thread and even report it to Audi if you've got the fortitude to deal with them stonewalling you.

So technically, Audi is saying the hill holder "feature" engages whenever you stop on a steep hill. Apparently it's "designed" so that the hill holder grabs the brakes and then the transmission goes into neutral. When you go from brake to gas, the transmission then goes into gear and you're off. All good in theory. So in real life, the problem is my car starts abruptly with a small grinding/slipping noise every time I stop/go on a steep hill. There's a lag and the transmission doesn't engage quickly enough to prevent an abrupt start. It kinda slips and then abruptly engages with a noise. You would think it should start smoothly which is what you would expect out of a semi-luxury car. In 20+ yrs of owning European cars (1-Saab, 3-BMW, 2-Porsche, 1-MB), I've never had a single car do this so it is definitely not normal. Other automatics don't have this problem b/c the transmission doesn't go into neutral. Audi designed it to be more efficient since it doesn't put load on the engine on hills, but it doesn't work b/c the transmission engages too slowly. I recently had a MB C300 loaner and it didn't have any problem on the same hill so it's definitely isolated to B8 A4's.

So Audi's response to my problem is that there's nothing wrong with it. They say it's performing according to manufactured specifications and that they will do nothing about it. Even this morning I took my car in to replace the sunroof motor and they refused even to document my hill holder complaint again b/c Audi says nothing is wrong with it and they can't keep documenting my complaint. My lemon law hearing is later this year and along with my other problems (steering shudder at low speeds-fixed, faulty sunroof-fix today, cold stalling due to a megatronic unit falling off inside the transmission-fixed) I'm hoping Audi will do right and take back my car.

Sincerest apologies for the lengthy post, but I really needed to vent. Please test your car and lemme know if you have the same problem. Even my loaner car today as the same problem so I suspect every person on this A4 B8 forum with an automatic transmission has it as well, but I'd love to hear what others think.

[ThePiombino]

Best of luck to you, buddy! I assume you've already gotten AoA involved? What did they say? I'm going through issues with high-speed vibrations, so I definitely empathize!

[Greedo]

Slightly off subject, but this is why cars need to stop getting overboard with all these electronic features that will of course cause problems. A hill holder? What purpose does this serve in an automatic? And if it was a feature in a manual, you shouldn't drive a manual if you can't start on a hill. The human element is slowly being taken out of driving: the Japanese are huge on making their cars drive themselves, Merc caught the bug and now it's making it's way to the other German two. Stop putting all of this ridiculous nonsense in a car and let humans drive the damn things.

[valida4]

Do all automatics come with hill-hold as standard? My understanding as I pointed out to fshizzle in another forum, was that hill hold was unavailable in North America. Please correct me if I am wrong.

[NPuter]

I didn't think that Hill Holder was available in NA, let alone on an automatic... Also, cars equipped with hill holder have a button to enable/disable it underneath the parking brake switch...
Are you sure your car has hill holder? If you don't, there is a problem with your dealer...

You can see the button in this pic:


If you just have a blank filler where the ((A)) button is, then you do not have hill holder..

[buckeye96]

I didn't think that Hill Holder was available in NA, let alone on an automatic... Also, cars equipped with hill holder have a button to enable/disable it underneath the parking brake switch...
Are you sure your car has hill holder? If you don't, there is a problem with your dealer...

You can see the button in this pic:


If you just have a blank filler where the ((A)) button is, then you do not have hill holder..

not true at all. I have it on mine and don't have the button. Mine only ever engaged on very steep hills and when I was completely stopped. The only time it ever "worked" was when I was in Pittsburgh.

Check this link out:
http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...ht=hill+holder

[NPuter]

not true at all. I have it on mine and don't have the button. Mine only ever engaged on very steep hills and when I was completely stopped. The only time it ever "worked" was when I was in Pittsburgh.

Check this link out:
http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...ht=hill+holder

sorry, I meant Hill Hold Assist -

I know you can push the parking brake, and have it automatically disengage - but I do not think the OP is doing that...

[buckeye96]

Mine automatically engaged on a steep hill while I was waiting for a light to change. I didn't push or do anything.

[hybridnrg]

same thing happens to me. sometimes just a small hill. sometimes it doesnt engage like it should and i get a real jerk out of the car

[NPuter]

Mine automatically engaged on a steep hill while I was waiting for a light to change. I didn't push or do anything.

seriously? ok - now I see what the OP is talking about...
We don't have that many hills in Miami so I have never experienced this...

[ThePiombino]

I was under the impression that this did no come equipped on NA cars. Thought I saw David do a retrofit of this on his car...

[NPuter]

I was under the impression that this did no come equipped on NA cars. Thought I saw David do a retrofit of this on his car...

I believe he was retrofitting Hill Hold Assist - That is different from Hill Hold...
I always knew that you can turn on the parking brake, and have it disengage w/ throttle - but I did not know that the car could spontaneously do it itself w/o Hill Hold Assist...

[ThePiombino]

I believe he was retrofitting Hill Hold Assist - That is different from Hill Hold...
I always knew that you can turn on the parking brake, and have it disengage w/ throttle - but I did not know that the car could spontaneously do it itself w/o Hill Hold Assist...

I see I see- very interesting

[ikotua]

same thing happens to me. sometimes just a small hill. sometimes it doesnt engage like it should and i get a real jerk out of the car

maybe you are confusing it with the fact that automatics in D tend to drive forward, even when you dont press the gas pedal.
So what happens when you are on a hill and engaged in D, you dont drive up because there is not enough torque and don't drive down the hill because there is enough torque to keep it in place.

[ThePiombino]

maybe you are confusing it with the fact that automatics in D tend to drive forward, even when you dont press the gas pedal.
So what happens when you are on a hill and engaged in D, you dont drive up because there is not enough torque and don't drive down the hill because there is enough torque to keep it in place.

Yeah- the idle is just enough to keep the car in place on certain grade hills...

[hybridnrg]

maybe you are confusing it with the fact that automatics in D tend to drive forward, even when you dont press the gas pedal.
So what happens when you are on a hill and engaged in D, you dont drive up because there is not enough torque and don't drive down the hill because there is enough torque to keep it in place.

nope not confusing anything. do you have an auto? maybe you dont understand then...

i live in a very hilly area. almost half the time the hill hold doesnt engage. or if it does engage, when i depress the gas pedal it jerks forward.

[traderhen]

I could relate to this issue as well and there's an occasional jerk when starting from a stop on a hill (sometimes even on flat surface when switching from Reverse to Drive mode). I also thought this was unusual for my 9k miles Audi Avant Auto. My BMW 3 series transmission is much smoother even with high miles. I'm really not too fond of Audi's tiptronic auto. So far i haven't brought this issue to Audi because I assumed the jerk is just inherent with the transmission design.

[valida4]

nope not confusing anything. do you have an auto? maybe you dont understand then...

i live in a very hilly area. almost half the time the hill hold doesnt engage. or if it does engage, when i depress the gas pedal it jerks forward.

I think you are confusing the "hold" as part of the way the A4 auto tranny is designed. From what fshizzle noted when he spoke to a SA:

Most automatic transmissions actually keep the gear engaged and when on hills there is enough torque to keep the car from rolling back. Most cars therefore just go smoothly. Audi implemented a different design on the B8 automatics where the brakes are engaged and then the transmission is put into neutral. It's probably more efficient b/c the engine doesn't have any load on it, but that's where the problem is b/c there's a short lag between the brakes releasing and before the auto transmission starts.

If hill hold assist did come installed on NA cars, then I would also have it, but my A4 being 6MT. But I can assure you I do not. My car rolls on a hill unless I engage the parking brake. Maybe David wants to shed some light on the AHHA availability?

[NWS4Guy]

No it has some sort of assist. I have had mine do this on steep inclines. I have a DSG, it is def NOT the transmission holding the car. The brake pedal gets hard as a rock under your foot, and there is ZERO play in the car, it's held fast on the hill without touching a thing. Once you hit the gas and it senses forward motion the brakes come off. It's not 100% of the time though, seems to only act on steep inclines, not gentle hills.

[rlarsen]

No it has some sort of assist. I have had mine do this on steep inclines. I have a DSG, it is def NOT the transmission holding the car. The brake pedal gets hard as a rock under your foot, and there is ZERO play in the car, it's held fast on the hill without touching a thing. Once you hit the gas and it senses forward motion the brakes come off. It's not 100% of the time though, seems to only act on steep inclines, not gentle hills.

With the Audi Hill Hold Assist, it is the ESP that is holding the car on all four wheels, not the brakes directly - I don't know if it is the same with the Hill Hold, that has been mentions here...

[NWS4Guy]

Thanks Rene, that actually does make sense - the ABS senses that the car is in a forward gear and is moving backwards and engages ESP to hold it then?

[rlarsen]

From another Thread where I've posted how it works: http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...ist-for-the-A4

[buckeye96]

No it has some sort of assist. I have had mine do this on steep inclines. I have a DSG, it is def NOT the transmission holding the car. The brake pedal gets hard as a rock under your foot, and there is ZERO play in the car, it's held fast on the hill without touching a thing. Once you hit the gas and it senses forward motion the brakes come off. It's not 100% of the time though, seems to only act on steep inclines, not gentle hills.

Yep. Same with me. And you can hear it release when you drive forward. The first time it happened I thought: "WTF is that? Something wrong with my car?" The next time it happened I was aware and realized what was going on

[A4vant]

Yep. Same with me. And you can hear it release when you drive forward. The first time it happened I thought: "WTF is that? Something wrong with my car?" The next time it happened I was aware and realized what was going on

I am quite shock to noticed that your salesman did not give you a briefing of how the whole vehicle work when you pick your car.

[ikotua]

nope not confusing anything. do you have an auto? maybe you dont understand then...

i live in a very hilly area. almost half the time the hill hold doesnt engage. or if it does engage, when i depress the gas pedal it jerks forward.

Ive got multitronic

[ThePiombino]

I am quite shock to noticed that your salesman did not give you a briefing of how the whole vehicle work when you pick your car.

A 5 minute crash session before going into 90% of the dealerships out there automatically better qualifies us to "inform" one about the car. Maybe it's just me, but any salesman I've ever dealt with didn't know his ass from his elbow, not was he very good at hiding that fact.

[JetBlue]

maybe you are confusing it with the fact that automatics in D tend to drive forward, even when you dont press the gas pedal.
So what happens when you are on a hill and engaged in D, you dont drive up because there is not enough torque and don't drive down the hill because there is enough torque to keep it in place.

No, my car also has Hill Hold Assist standard. It engages the brakes automatically and then releases them after 2 seconds or once the gas pedal is engaged.

[ikotua]

do you have a button labeled (A) after the (P) – i dont.

[NWS4Guy]

do you have a button labeled (A) after the (P) – i dont.

Not in North America, that is what we are getting at here. The car does it on it's own, we have no "A" button below the E-brake, there is nothing we do but release the brake pedal when on a steep hill and the car uses some sort of holding function.

As for the dealer doing a walkaround, I already know more than most every SA there is about the car just through my own passion and research. Not saying I am some tech God, or that SA's are clueless (though a LOT of them are), just that I wouldn't have gotten much out of a walkthrough except a waste of both our time.

[B_Boy]

there must be some misconception here cuz every keeps saying they have it and then someone says no u dont. I have tried this and mine doesnt work.But then again i have a tip car. Maybe this only functions on a 6mt car? According to the audi website is says that the EPB only assist on a hill start and doesnt specify for auto or 6mt. So are the people on here that say they have it have and auto or 6mt?

Also, if this EPB acts like AHHA then y would they only have it in NA and then have AHHA in ROW (or do they?!?!)? But yet have it in the r8 in NA?

[ikotua]

you shoul be able to check if you have hillhold or not on the sticker with the VIN number, i remember reading about it somewhere on the net.

[NWS4Guy]

I don't know, I have no 6MT, mine is a DSG (not Tip either). I also don't have a hill hold button, just works by itself
/shrug

[hawc1506]

Alright, here's my attempt:

I have a US 2009 A4 Tiptronic with Premium Plus Package. There is no button behind the parking brake. When I go up a steep hill and stop, I hear a very faint high pitch noise (some might not be able to hear it because of its high frequency) and that tells me that the car has locked itself in place on the hill.

If I take my foot off the brakes, the car remains in place. Then if I accelerate slowly, there is no grinding noise and the acceleration is smooth. But if I am quick on the pedal, there is a grinding sound along with a click and a jerky acceleration.

I think it's normal. My guess is that the brakes that hold the car in place are designed to release slowly, so your car doesn't fall backwards as soon as you touch the accelerator pedal. So if you accelerate faster than the brakes can disengage, then you will feel that jerk.

[ikotua]

Alright, here's my attempt:

I have a US 2009 A4 Tiptronic with Premium Plus Package. There is no button behind the parking brake. When I go up a steep hill and stop, I hear a very faint high pitch noise (some might not be able to hear it because of its high frequency) and that tells me that the car has locked itself in place on the hill.

If I take my foot off the brakes, the car remains in place. Then if I accelerate slowly, there is no grinding noise and the acceleration is smooth. But if I am quick on the pedal, there is a grinding sound along with a click and a jerky acceleration.

I think it's normal. My guess is that the brakes that hold the car in place are designed to release slowly, so your car doesn't fall backwards as soon as you touch the accelerator pedal. So if you accelerate faster than the brakes can disengage, then you will feel that jerk.

can it be a gear change?:)

[A5 Sportback CT]

I have just purchased a A5 Sportback 2L T Multi-tronic with auto transmission. I am having exactly the same problem. Whenever I am on an incline and stop the car with the foot brake, the electronic hand-brake automatically engages. It disengages about 2 seconds after taking my foot of the foot brake it. Every time this happens I get the same grinding noise from what appears to be the brakes. Spoke to Audi SA and they say that they are not familiar with this, but they think it is normal. Has anyone made any headway with this? Has Audi acknowledged that it is a fault or are they still suggesting that it is normal? Is there any way of repairing this problem, and if so, how?

Would appreciate any help here.

Thanks.

[Highlander1010]

I'm having this exact problem, but it also can continue to happen to me even on flat start/stops from time to time after acting up initially on a hill. I talked with the guys at Achtuning and we were able to replicate on a hill for sure, and they agreed it is the hill hold acting up. The thought is that because I've gone K04 and upgraded my brake equipment as well (pads, rotors, lines) that perhaps the car has to overcome more in a hill hold scenario than it was OME programmed for.

That does make sense to me, but I still cannot figure out why it randomly happens in the flats. Any thoughts? It is becoming a bit unsafe when I need to go quickly from a stop into traffic.

[dscline]

I still cannot figure out why it randomly happens in the flats

Are you sure it's the "hill holder" engaging, and not just the slowness of the transmission engaging when you drive off? That was one of the things I first noticed when I got my car... if I try to accelerate immediately from a stop, there if often a jerk that appears to be the result of the engine accelerating before the transmission has had time to transition from it's "neutral mode" at a stop to being engaged. I learned to always pause between taking my foot off the brake before applying gas... once you take your foot off the brake you can sense a slight engagement in the transmission, then I give it gas. You may be able to test to see if it's the neutral mode, because I think the car doesn't go into neutral mode when the tranny is in sport mode. At least in my '11 with ADS, if I'm at a stop light, and I switch ADS to dynamic (which puts the tranny in sport mode), I can sense the transmission engaging as if it's going out of neutral mode even though my foot is still on the brake.

[Highlander1010]

I always drive in "Sport" on the shifter and can feather the throttle most of the time with absolutely no issue. This only happens on hills (reasonably consistently - which does make sense from the above) but now sometimes on the flat, which doesn't make any sense at all. There is no jerking at all...just a flutter of the RPMs and a quick (1-3 second) lack of power, then BAM...normal.

[mookid]

Hi all,

I'm just going to respond to this post to see if there has been any intel on hill assist since these posts happened. Basically my wife owns an 09 A4 in San Francisco and we park on hills often. I have owned a b8.5 s4 (auto) and and '06 a3 (auto) - she owns an A4. Now, the hill assist works like a charm in both my a3 and b8 s4, but her a4? Its terrible. By terrible I mean if I go into D on an incline and start rev'ing, the hill assist (or what seems to be hill assist) doesn't disengage until I am reving at
3k+ rpm..., meaning, when it does let go, I chirp my tires, or at the very least the car bucks forward. It honestly feels terrible.

I have taken it to the dealer as the OP stated and they say everything is functioning normally.

I suppose my question to this thread is, is this normal on the a4? Is there a way to disable it? I even try to deactivate with a tap to the brake (like my a3) and it doesn't appear to matter. Is this the Hill assist at all? Or the transmission itself?

Cheers for any thoughts - I know this is an old post but wonder if more folks have dealt with this issue by now. This was the closest thread my search turned up.

Thanks

[NPuter]

After rereading, I finally understand what this whole thread has been about. Now that I've had my A4 in hilly areas, I've noticed this hill hold (not the parking brake assist) working. But, it is pretty smooth feeling on my car/with how I drive, and not super jerky as some describe.
What's really interesting (and what brought my attention back to this), is my 6MT 2016 S5 does this as well. When letting off the brake on a hill, the car will not roll for 2-3 seconds. Then, I can hear a mechanical actuation sound in the pedal area (brakes releasing) and the car begins to roll. Not sure how long this has been implemented with 6MT (or if it ever has).