MTM Cantronic. It works, it definitely works.

**Nickyracer** · 06-22-2010 04:51 AM

Hello, guys!
I've read all the debates about piggybacks here, theirs pros and cons, as far as the so-called respectable North American tuning companies are still promising an ECU tune for S4 B8 to be released "in two weeks" for almost a year by now. Sounds very promising.
I've made my choice - Cantronic for "430" horsepower has been installed into my car. It's become definitely faster. How faster? - you will ask. Don't know exactly - I will answer, because there ain't any dyno around my vicinity.
0-200 km/h for 16-16,3 seconds according to GPS and professional stopwatch. Going to measure 0-250 km/h time, but no such possibility yet.
But last year I raced my then bone stock S4 against tuned ///M3 e46 - ECU tune, intake (stock exhaust), camshafts, rev&speed limiter removed (9000 rpm), lower suspension, short-shifter, carbon fiber hood and trunk lid.
Roll-on 40-200 km/h from the 2nd gear: dead even until 180 km/h, where tuned ///M3 slowly began to take off. Not a chance for S4 at high speeds.
Now, this year, with my "looks-like 430 horsepower" Cantronic-piggybacked S4.
Same cars, same road, same drivers, same distance. But now not a chance for the ///M3. From the very beginning of the race (30 km/h-200 km/h) S4 takes off for about 3-4 car lengths. At the higher speeds the distance between our cars increased slower, but it definitely increased.
To my and ///M3's owner (very experienced fellow, his Evo VIII ran 11,8), the amount of horsepower's increase in my S4 looks like 60-70, which, IMO, looks closer to reality.
Just my 2 cents. Cantronic IS expensive, but it works.
No other mods in my car, just Cantronic alone.

**Nickyracer** · 06-22-2010 04:58 AM

http://racing-nn.ru/forum/viewtopic....t=6913&start=0
Sorry' it's Russian, but there's photos and video of my race against M3.

**NickS** · 06-22-2010 05:30 AM

Not a chance in hell I'd put a piggy-back system on my car. I have no issues waiting for APR to release their OBD programmer even if that means another 6 months.

That being said, I'm glad you are enjoying the upgrade.

**zerinA4** · 06-22-2010 05:32 AM

Likewise.

Originally Posted by NickS

Not a chance in hell I'd put a piggy-back system on my car. I have no issues waiting for APR to release their OBD programmer even if that means another 6 months.

That being said, I'm glad you are enjoying the upgrade.

**BlackS4TT(Josh)** · 06-22-2010 05:32 AM

Originally Posted by NickS

Not a chance in hell I'd put a piggy-back system on my car. I have no issues waiting for APR to release their OBD programmer even if that means another 6 months.

That being said, I'm glad you are enjoying the upgrade.

2nd

**L0U** · 06-22-2010 06:58 AM

for 1000 bucks i'd use one.

**NWS4Guy** · 06-22-2010 07:13 AM

Originally Posted by Nickyracer

http://racing-nn.ru/forum/viewtopic....t=6913&start=0
Sorry' it's Russian, but there's photos and video of my race against M3.

Do you mean the 8 second clip on page 2? Not very substatiated IMO, hard to tell from this angle, clip and the other traffic trying to use the road.

I'm glad you are happy with it and it seems to be doing the trick. I will also wait for an ECU reflash though. Any Piggy backwill always be bound to work under the rules of the max settings the ECU is tuned for from Audi, and as such will always be crippled compared to any srot of native flash.

**hercfe** · 06-22-2010 07:20 AM

0-200kph in 16 seconds is SLOW. there may be something wrong there. That puts you in the mid-high 14s in the quarter mile. No way you're timing it correctly if you can beat that M3. You should be closer to mid-high 12s to 200kph.

**Zed 2.0** · 06-22-2010 07:49 AM

Originally Posted by hercfe

0-200kph in 16 seconds is SLOW. there may be something wrong there. That puts you in the mid-high 14s in the quarter mile. No way you're timing it correctly if you can beat that M3. You should be closer to mid-high 12s to 200kph.

What you're saying is that he should trap at around 124mph? That'd take in the neighborhood of 500hp.

**L0U** · 06-22-2010 07:59 AM

http://www.fastestlaps.com/car_Audi_S4_B8.html

**rktskicar** · 06-22-2010 05:24 PM

Originally Posted by Nickyracer

Hello, guys!
I've read all the debates about piggybacks here, theirs pros and cons, as far as the so-called respectable North American tuning companies are still promising an ECU tune for S4 B8 to be released "in two weeks" for almost a year by now. Sounds very promising.
I've made my choice - Cantronic for "430" horsepower has been installed into my car. It's become definitely faster. How faster? - you will ask. Don't know exactly - I will answer, because there ain't any dyno around my vicinity.
0-200 km/h for 16-16,3 seconds according to GPS and professional stopwatch. Going to measure 0-250 km/h time, but no such possibility yet.
But last year I raced my then bone stock S4 against tuned ///M3 e46 - ECU tune, intake (stock exhaust), camshafts, rev&speed limiter removed (9000 rpm), lower suspension, short-shifter, carbon fiber hood and trunk lid.
Roll-on 40-200 km/h from the 2nd gear: dead even until 180 km/h, where tuned ///M3 slowly began to take off. Not a chance for S4 at high speeds.
Now, this year, with my "looks-like 430 horsepower" Cantronic-piggybacked S4.
Same cars, same road, same drivers, same distance. But now not a chance for the ///M3. From the very beginning of the race (30 km/h-200 km/h) S4 takes off for about 3-4 car lengths. At the higher speeds the distance between our cars increased slower, but it definitely increased.
To my and ///M3's owner (very experienced fellow, his Evo VIII ran 11,8), the amount of horsepower's increase in my S4 looks like 60-70, which, IMO, looks closer to reality.
Just my 2 cents. Cantronic IS expensive, but it works.
No other mods in my car, just Cantronic alone.

Nicky-

Do you have access to a VAG (VCDS) to run some logs for us on your MTM?

thanks,
Bruce

**Nickyracer** · 06-22-2010 09:35 PM

Originally Posted by hercfe

0-200kph in 16 seconds is SLOW. there may be something wrong there. That puts you in the mid-high 14s in the quarter mile. No way you're timing it correctly if you can beat that M3. You should be closer to mid-high 12s to 200kph.

You couldn't be far more wrong.
Looks like you don't know the subject at all.
0-200 for 12 seconds is GT-R time, which is in a totally different league.
17.5 seconds - fastestlaps.com shows.
19-19.9 seconds real Russian tests of the S4 B8 show.
G-tech showed 12.7. 0.9 g acceleration in the 1st gear in my car.

**Nickyracer** · 06-22-2010 09:47 PM

Originally Posted by NickS

Not a chance in hell I'd put a piggy-back system on my car. I have no issues waiting for APR to release their OBD programmer even if that means another 6 months.
That being said, I'm glad you are enjoying the upgrade.

Thank you and good luck that your waiting will be over before your car celebrates its 2nd birthday.

To all:
I know and share all your scepticism about piggybacks. I know that's "erzats" that has its right to live only because real chip-tuning is not available. Piggybacks cannot alter ignition timing... etc.
But that's the available solution that makes this car perceptibly FASTER. And piggyback can be easily removed within 20 minutes to avoid warranty problems at the dealership.
It's far difficult to do with a real ECU upgrade.
I don't know about used vehicles market in North America, but here in Russia your chances to sell a tuned car are much worse than chances to sell a full-stock car. And usual price of the tuned ones is lower.
I respect your opinions, guys, but my car IS faster. Right now. No doubt that your cars will be as well. But when?

**Nickyracer** · 06-22-2010 09:51 PM

Originally Posted by rktskicar

Nicky-

Do you have access to a VAG (VCDS) to run some logs for us on your MTM?

thanks,
Bruce

Local dealer has VAG-COM.
I'll try to get the logs when I get to the dealership, but it will be not earlier than August.

**Nickyracer** · 06-22-2010 09:59 PM

Originally Posted by NWS4Guy

Do you mean the 8 second clip on page 2? Not very substatiated IMO, hard to tell from this angle, clip and the other traffic trying to use the road.

I'm glad you are happy with it and it seems to be doing the trick. I will also wait for an ECU reflash though. Any Piggy backwill always be bound to work under the rules of the max settings the ECU is tuned for from Audi, and as such will always be crippled compared to any srot of native flash.

You're right. And I didn't want to urge anyone to buy a piggyback.
I just wanted to say that they're not useless and just a waste of money, as many people say here. Pricey, yes, but not useless.

I didn't know someone was shooting when I raced my S4.
That street-tracing was illegal, of course. But Russian traffic law-enforcement officers almost never be there.
It would be very interesting to compare real-chipped S4 vs piggybacked S4.

**drvolkl** · 06-22-2010 10:09 PM

Originally Posted by Nickyracer

Thank you and good luck that your waiting will be over before your car celebrates its 2nd birthday.

Why does this come off like a sales pitch? I have no problem waiting a year if I have to. I'd rather do it right the first time than have to do it twice.
Glad you're enjoying your car however...

**Nickyracer** · 06-22-2010 10:32 PM

Originally Posted by drvolkl

Why does this come off like a sales pitch? I have no problem waiting a year if I have to. I'd rather do it right the first time than have to do it twice.
Glad you're enjoying your car however...

Thank you.
It's not sales pitch, just a little bit of irony.
It's strange that almost two years since the release of the model have passed - and still there's no any ECU solution. Never seen this with any other car.
That's strange.
And, of course, there's no need to do ECU tuning since one's got a piggyback, unless he's a very rich fellow.

**primetime** · 06-23-2010 03:35 AM

Originally Posted by drvolkl

Why does this come off like a sales pitch? I have no problem waiting a year if I have to. I'd rather do it right the first time than have to do it twice.
Glad you're enjoying your car however...

+1

**Nickyracer** · 06-23-2010 03:43 AM

Looks like you guys have enough patience to wait until it's time to sell the car...

**NWS4Guy** · 06-23-2010 05:22 AM

Originally Posted by Nickyracer

Looks like you guys have enough patience to wait until it's time to sell the car...

Remember, it's been out over THERE 2 years, it has not been here even a year yet. That is one reason that nothing from US tuners have nothing. Not sure why EU sells piggy backs, maybe they lack tha ability, or figure the difficulty is not worth it. Tunes will be out well before this time next year I am confident.

**NickS** · 06-23-2010 05:36 AM

Originally Posted by Nickyracer

Thank you and good luck that your waiting will be over before your car celebrates its 2nd birthday.

To all:
I know and share all your scepticism about piggybacks. I know that's "erzats" that has its right to live only because real chip-tuning is not available. Piggybacks cannot alter ignition timing... etc.
But that's the available solution that makes this car perceptibly FASTER. And piggyback can be easily removed within 20 minutes to avoid warranty problems at the dealership.
It's far difficult to do with a real ECU upgrade.
I don't know about used vehicles market in North America, but here in Russia your chances to sell a tuned car are much worse than chances to sell a full-stock car. And usual price of the tuned ones is lower.
I respect your opinions, guys, but my car IS faster. Right now. No doubt that your cars will be as well. But when?

The car was released in Europe a year before it was released here. By the end of this year there will be software available from the major US tuners. It may have been a long wait for you but for us it will be a relatively short wait.

It may be a simple swap and only take 20 minutes to put it back to stock but here in the US, if you tamper with the ECU or any other component and they catch it, they could void your warranty from that point forward. Not many people are willing to risk actually prying the case open to put a piggy back on. So waiting for the OBD port programming is just a no brainer for those of us who do NOT want to hassle with all the possible warranty issues with using a piggy back.

And yes, using the OBD port programmer is still tampering with the ECU programming but it's not physically obvious that it's been modified. APR is good about making their software undetectable by the dealer so that is a risk I am okay with. Even if it was to get reflashed, I can easily upload my program again.

**L0U** · 06-23-2010 05:45 AM

If the 3 piggyback systems had a pricing scheme that was attractive to usa, and canada. I do think a bunch would buy the kit, either as a stop gap measure, or just for good. 4k just won't happen here.

1000 would sell many here. but that is not leaving much on the table I guess. (at least they'd sell though)
even 1500 is about max I'd pay for a quick 50hp at the wheel.

**NickS** · 06-23-2010 05:50 AM

Originally Posted by L0U

If the 3 piggyback systems had a pricing scheme that was attractive to usa, and canada. I do think a bunch would buy the kit, either as a stop gap measure, or just for good. 4k just won't happen here.

1000 would sell many here. but that is not leaving much on the table I guess. (at least they'd sell though)
even 1500 is about max I'd pay for a quick 50hp at the wheel.

$1k would be my max and honestly, I don't think they will even be that high. I'm guessing $800'ish with a few extra programs from APR. If it's more than that, I will most likley not buy one which means I won't buy an exhaust either.

**mtmspeed** · 06-23-2010 06:15 AM

Originally Posted by NickS

Not many people are willing to risk actually prying the case open to put a piggy back on. And yes, using the OBD port programmer is still tampering with the ECU programming but it's not physically obvious that it's been modified. APR is good about making their software undetectable by the dealer so that is a risk I am okay with. Even if it was to get reflashed, I can easily upload my program again.

The MTM cantronic is plug-n-play, you do not open up the ECU to install. And ANY flash is noticible to the dealer, even when 'turned off' There is a flash counter built in to tell them how many times the chip has been flashed.

**NickS** · 06-23-2010 06:21 AM

Originally Posted by mtmspeed

The MTM cantronic is plug-n-play, you do not open up the ECU to install. And ANY flash is noticible to the dealer, even when 'turned off' There is a flash counter built in to tell them how many times the chip has been flashed.

Then why is it called a "piggy back"? To me, that means it's like the old school days where you literally open up the ECU and place an additional chip on the board. If it's P&P... then I see no problem with the MTM upgrade other than price.

**NWS4Guy** · 06-23-2010 06:56 AM

Originally Posted by NickS

Then why is it called a "piggy back"? To me, that means it's like the old school days where you literally open up the ECU and place an additional chip on the board. If it's P&P... then I see no problem with the MTM upgrade other than price.

He is right, it doesn't require opening theECU,it has inline wiring that goes in between the ECU and it's sensors in order to fake the data coming into the ECU to change what it's doing.

As for the counter, every major US ECU tuner is well aware of this, and their software stores the Flash counter and puts that SAME value in when it's flashed. No dealer can tell it's been done,and I doubt even Audi could unless they have the ECU for weeks attempting to access it via the Cruise Control interface, in which case they would spend a lot of time trying every combination on order to activate your personal code.

**NickS** · 06-23-2010 07:26 AM

Originally Posted by NWS4Guy

He is right, it doesn't require opening theECU,it has inline wiring that goes in between the ECU and it's sensors in order to fake the data coming into the ECU to change what it's doing.

Ah... then I wouldn't be doing that either. Jacking with the wiring and/or inserting something inline is NOT "plug and play".

**drvolkl** · 06-23-2010 07:27 AM

Originally Posted by Nickyracer

Looks like you guys have enough patience to wait until it's time to sell the car...

I've had my car 5 months... I'm not exactly itching to sell it already. I think you're way off the mark here buddy... especially when all you give us is your butt dyno.

What other mods have you done? Maybe you need something else to keep you busy?? Hows your exhaust? Short Shifter? Boost Gauge? Rims? Suspension? I mean, surely, you've done all this as well?

**LeadToRome** · 06-23-2010 08:15 AM

Why the hostility to our Russian friend? He's not selling anything, or telling you what to do, or saying that he has the best solution possible, all he's saying is that there is some empirical evidence that the system actually works (evidence that has been sorely lacking to date). I know there's a lot of well-deserved skepticism out there towards MTM and at least one of the people directly involved with the company, but I don't believe that nickyracer is in league with them, trying to fleece the stupid North Americans. Hey maybe I'm wrong, it's happened before, but I don't think so.

**mtmspeed** · 06-23-2010 09:51 AM

Originally Posted by NickS

Ah... then I wouldn't be doing that either. Jacking with the wiring and/or inserting something inline is NOT "plug and play".

mmmmm......no, that is EXACTLY what plug-n-play means. No cutting, splicing, soldering....just make the plug connections.

**BKNYCS4** · 06-23-2010 09:58 AM

Bro ti maladets .... edud ani vse na hui !!

**mtmspeed** · 06-23-2010 09:59 AM

Nicky I'm glad you are able to enjoy your MTM S4! Its good to hear testimonials from people who have first hand knowledge of what it can do vs. the ones who want to criticize and don't understand the product. What a shame you can't get some before and after dyno runs. There have been several people in the states who have said the same thing about the performance but no one yet has cared enough to dyno one ....sooner or later someone will get the dyno plots for the critics...

**Keith@APR** · 06-23-2010 10:09 AM

Originally Posted by mtmspeed

The MTM cantronic is plug-n-play, you do not open up the ECU to install. And ANY flash is noticible to the dealer, even when 'turned off' There is a flash counter built in to tell them how many times the chip has been flashed.

That is so, so, so, very wrong!!! The flash counter has been known about from major tuners for YEARS and is rewritten to the exact number of flashes you had prior to purchasing an ecu upgrade.

Don't spread misnomers! Check for yourself and stop believing whoever is feeding you these lies.

But the Germans know everything! yeah, that ended in 1943. ;)

**drvolkl** · 06-23-2010 10:10 AM

Yeah... what a shame....

**NWS4Guy** · 06-23-2010 10:14 AM

Originally Posted by Keith@APR

That is so, so, so, very wrong!!! The flash counter has been known about from major tuners for YEARS and is rewritten to the exact number of flashes you had prior to purchasing an ecu upgrade.

Don't spread misnomers! Check for yourself and stop believing whoever is feeding you these lies.

But the Germans know everything! yeah, that ended in 1943. ;)

There seems to be an echo in here

**Keith@APR** · 06-23-2010 10:19 AM

Originally Posted by NWS4Guy

There seems to be an echo in here

Sorry, I just read that post and freaked out. Such old, old, old, information.

**NWS4Guy** · 06-23-2010 10:25 AM

Originally Posted by Keith@APR

Sorry, I just read that post and freaked out. Such old, old, old, information.

I'm just teasing, it has more meaning coming from someone in authority than a random poster who heard it second hand.

**Keith@APR** · 06-23-2010 10:31 AM

Originally Posted by NWS4Guy

I'm just teasing, it has more meaning coming from someone in authority than a random poster who heard it second hand.

I'll go ahead and break down the process for everyone since we are talking about it.

The first step in an APR DPP flash is read out the current state of your ecu and store it on our server.

From there, our server automatically compiles our performance data into what we read out from your ecu.

Then, we flash your exact read out information back onto your ecu with our performance data replacing the OEM data in the sectors that are necessary to be changed.

During this process, all flash counters and other flashing security features are replaced with the exact info we read out from your ecu in step one.

That's it in a nutshell. You are protected and you have the exact OEM software that was on your ecu when you came to us as your exact OEM stock mode when you switch into stock mode with your ecu. Its not a lite version of your oem code, its the exact.

**S4-Tommy** · 06-23-2010 02:22 PM

Originally Posted by Keith@APR

That is so, so, so, very wrong!!! The flash counter has been known about from major tuners for YEARS and is rewritten to the exact number of flashes you had prior to purchasing an ecu upgrade.

Don't spread misnomers! Check for yourself and stop believing whoever is feeding you these lies.

But the Germans know everything! yeah, that ended in 1943. ;)

MTM works perfect!

So, where is your fabulous tuning?
You made plenty of big words so far but where are your actions? Nowhere! :D