Bananas' Maestro logs, Map Screenshots/Descriptions, and comments

[bananas]

Edit: Link to maps, screenshots, and descriptions: http://eurodyne.ca/forum/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=689

I know some of ya'll are curious about the Maestro experience, so I thought I'd post a quick update. I've been experimenting with some of the tables trying to get a feel for what each table does, and how it affects drivability and WOT.

I've been targeting a nice and smooth 21psi N75 program first, before I move along to 25psi+. I've been primarily doing a revision or so per day, then logging during my commute. I commute in traffic, so my opportunities for full 3rd gear pulls is fairly limited. Here is one such log of mainly 2nd and 3rd gear pulls:
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...CdHVjanc&hl=en
Edit: Here are more pulls in 2nd, 3rd, 4th (partial), and 5th (partial) gears: http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...SZGh2b2c&hl=en

I'm targetting O2 corrections near 0, or slightly negative (removing a little fuel). This should give me more room for correction when running boost above 2540mbar absolute, beyond the MAP sensor's limits. I have to toy with that still.

I've played with modifying the accelerator pedal behavior (think: sprint booster), requested torque, torque to load mapping, maximum load (roughly requested boost at WOT), programming the N75 behavior (including tweaking PID as tweaking maximum duty, which is useful for controlling boost above 2540mbar absolute), adjusted fueling "accel pump" values, fine tuned fueling to dial in fueling (at specific loads&rpms and accounting for Aquamist HFS-3 progressive meth spray), played with desired idle speeds, dialed in my trip computer MPG values, and I've toyed with adjusting the X & Y axis values for more precise control of fueling parameters where it is needed most on my setup (high RPMs and load). I've played with the 2-step and no-lift-to-shift feature, but they're still beta and don't work quite right. I got a huge grin from some lowered GTI the other day, though, when I shot flames at him. I have yet to touch the timing table. I'm running the base "race gas" map, with water/meth and pulling just a bit here and there. Up next is improving my spool on N75 and targeting boost levels greater than 22.5psi both on and off the N75.

So far the experience has been quite positive, but fairly slow. I'm deliberately making my changes slowly and safely. I've already learned a ton; the second car I tweak will take less time. Chris Tapp is very responsive to feedback and genuinely wants to help. I'm disappointed by the slow pace of the "community support", but I hope that will grown in time. I would say the Maestro tools are still "beta" quality software, but they are indeed updated frequently. The flashing code is very robust. I've flashed my ECU 40-50 times already.

[A4 TSCHUSS]

How long does it take to flash? Is it fast that you could tune on a dyno or does it take to long that you would be paying a months paycheck to get it tuned due to so much downtime?

[bananas]

How long does it take to flash? Is it fast that you could tune on a dyno or does it take to long that you would be paying a months paycheck to get it tuned due to so much downtime?

Each flash takes about 2-5 minutes depending on how many maps you update. It only updates portions of memory that have changed.

[A4 TSCHUSS]

Oh ok, that isn't extremely bad so you could probably get a lot done in a 2 hour dyno session if you knew what you were doing changing things.

[O2VW1.8T]

I can't wait till i buy maestro

[AudiHere04]

ditto!!!

[lave3k]

I had expected maestro to take over big turbo tuning, or at least spawned similar competitive programs. My only reason for not getting it was that Eurodyne wouldn't license it for two separate cars, and being that I have a GTI, and an A4 with the same engines, I wanted a tool for both. Have you had any experience using other software with ME7x ecu's such as WinOLS, and could you offer a comparison between the two?

Are you modifying the individual maps as they are found in the ECU, ie do you change the requested load map to result in a change in boost pressure (where boost is roughly load x10 plus 300mbar). Or does Maestro simplify things and let you just put in a desired boost pressure, and then work the rest out?

[O2VW1.8T]

Yeah i wish unitronic came out something for the public instead of the dealers only which is gay. So now i wasted 600 on a stock turbo tune and im going to overwrite it with the 900 dollar eurodyne

[7speed]

I can't wait till i buy maestro

Yeah, me too. My home purchase has set me back a little.

[gotboost]

Yeah i wish unitronic came out something for the public instead of the dealers only which is gay. So now i wasted 600 on a stock turbo tune and im going to overwrite it with the 900 dollar eurodyne

Yeah that's what I had to do, sucks!

[20vturbo]

I know some of ya'll are curious about the Maestro experience, so I thought I'd post a quick update. I've been experimenting with some of the tables trying to get a feel for what each table does, and how it affects drivability and WOT.

I've been targeting a nice and smooth 21psi N75 program first, before I move along to 25psi+. I've been primarily doing a revision or so per day, then logging during my commute. I commute in traffic, so my opportunities for full 3rd gear pulls is fairly limited. Here is one such log of mainly 2nd gear pulls:
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...CdHVjanc&hl=en

I'm targetting O2 corrections near 0, or slightly negative (removing a little fuel). This should give me more room for correction when running boost above 2540mbar absolute, beyond the MAP sensor's limits. I have to toy with that still.

I've played with modifying the accelerator pedal behavior (think: sprint booster), requested torque, torque to load mapping, maximum load (roughly requested boost at WOT), programming the N75 behavior (including tweaking PID as tweaking maximum duty, which is useful for controlling boost above 2540mbar absolute), adjusted fueling "accel pump" values, fine tuned fueling to dial in fueling (at specific loads&rpms and accounting for Aquamist HFS-3 progressive meth spray), played with desired idle speeds, dialed in my trip computer MPG values, and I've toyed with adjusting the X & Y axis values for more precise control of fueling parameters where it is needed most on my setup (high RPMs and load). I've played with the 2-step and no-lift-to-shift feature, but they're still beta and don't work quite right. I got a huge grin from some lowered GTI the other day, though, when I shot flames at him. I have yet to touch the timing table. I'm running the base "race gas" map, with water/meth and pulling just a bit here and there. Up next is improving my spool on N75 and targeting boost levels greater than 22.5psi both on and off the N75.

So far the experience has been quite positive, but fairly slow. I'm deliberately making my changes slowly and safely. I've already learned a ton; the second car I tweak will take less time. Chris Tapp is very responsive to feedback and genuinely wants to help. I'm disappointed by the slow pace of the "community support", but I hope that will grown in time. I would say the Maestro tools are still "beta" quality software, but they are indeed updated frequently. The flashing code is very robust. I've flashed my ECU 40-50 times already.

arer you also using a tapp file???

[MmmBoost]

I'm glad I waited on deciding who was going to be my BT tuner of choice. I just REALLY hope that the Maestro train starts picking up some speed. The community is so small still, there is very little support.

I should be getting started with my install/tuning in a few weeks!

[A4 TSCHUSS]

arer you also using a tapp file???

What do you mean? They are all Tapp files (for the base file you get), he is who makes this Maestro suite.

[MmmBoost]

When you order the Maestro 7, you get the OBDII port plugin, USB cable, software, and a base tune that is a TAPP base file.

[[email protected]]

How long does it take to flash? Is it fast that you could tune on a dyno or does it take to long that you would be paying a months paycheck to get it tuned due to so much downtime?

If you know how to use the Maestro suite, how to read and edit the maps and have access to a dyno you can tune the car in 2 hours.

Or well that is how fast Bob can do it at the shop

BTW the difference between the version of Maestro at the shop and the 'public' version are access to all of the various maps in the suite. In the public version some of the items are locked out.

[bananas]

I had expected maestro to take over big turbo tuning, or at least spawned similar competitive programs. My only reason for not getting it was that Eurodyne wouldn't license it for two separate cars, and being that I have a GTI, and an A4 with the same engines, I wanted a tool for both. Have you had any experience using other software with ME7x ecu's such as WinOLS, and could you offer a comparison between the two?

Are you modifying the individual maps as they are found in the ECU, ie do you change the requested load map to result in a change in boost pressure (where boost is roughly load x10 plus 300mbar). Or does Maestro simplify things and let you just put in a desired boost pressure, and then work the rest out?

Maestro maps are the actual motronic maps with different names. For example, there is a throttle pedal map with which you can set requested torque in percent. From requested Torque and RPM you can specify the desired load values.

Maestro doesn't expose all the maps in the ECU; it exposes only specific ones. My assumption is that the maps exposed by Maestro are the same maps Tapp (or EPL or Revo) would use to tune a car. WinOLS, on the other hand, would give you access to all the maps in the ECU (the vast majority of which aren't needed to tune your car). Tapp has stated that if there are other maps that are beneficial to tuning, he would expose them upon request.

A legit copy of WinOLS is approximately a 10,000$ investment (AFAIK). That only gets you the basic software. Add more monies on top of that for the checksum generator for your ECU, and then you can read/write the ECU and define maps. You're nowhere near tuning yet. Now you need to guess at the location of the maps in ROM and guess at what they do, determine what the input data (is it load? temperature? torque request? quantity of bananas?)and units (is it celcius? newton-meters? percent? load?) encoding (are the values 8-bit unsigned? does a value of 128 really indicate 0?) are for both axis, then determine the same information for the contents... for tables named things such as "Schwelle far dynamische Schubumluftventilsteuerung aktiv" and "Klopferkennungsfaktorkennfeld Zandung 4". Once you determine what the maps are doing, you can begin tweaking and burning your files, using some other software you'll have to do research on and acquire separately. Some of this motronic information is available on the web in german, some in english, but not all of it, and it's all highly fragmented. If you think Maestro lacks support, try finding information on what the Sollwinkel Nockenwelle bei klopfender Verbrennung Einlay map does. Maestro does a lot of this legwork for you and wraps it all up in an easy to use package. To make an analogy, Maestro is like installing Windows while WinOLS is like creating your own custom Linux distribution from scratch, then paying SCO 10,000 in license fees (if you're a geek you may get that).

With all that said, there are people actively working on reverse engineering the motronic (mostly 7.1) ecus and discussing their results openly (and I wish them the best of luck; if an open tool similar to Maestro came along, I'd have no qualms about switching).

[bananas]

arer you also using a tapp file???

Yes, you get a base file for your basic hardware setup included in the price of the software suite. My tune is modified from that base file.

[lave3k]

So how do the diagnostics and data logging compare to Vagcom? Do you still use Vagcom for some functions or is it completely replaced?
I whole heartedly agree with you on the vagueness of WinOLS, I'm currently playing the what does the "Dynamic threshold for active wastegate valve control" map really do game. -Its a nail biter.

How many maps do you have access to, and was changing constants like correcting your gas mileage straight forward?

Thanks, Dave

[bananas]

So how do the diagnostics and data logging compare to Vagcom? Do you still use Vagcom for some functions or is it completely replaced?
I whole heartedly agree with you on the vagueness of WinOLS, I'm currently playing the what does the "Dynamic threshold for active wastegate valve control" map really do game. -Its a nail biter.

How many maps do you have access to, and was changing constants like correcting your gas mileage straight forward?

Thanks, Dave

Diagnostics (vag-com-like functionality) is more limited than VCDS. I will still use my Ross-Tech cable/software for things such as changing codings or output tests.

Measuring blocks in Maestro is easy and it works OK, but the labels aren't as well defined as VCDS (e.g., it may say "Percent" in Maestro but say "Throttle pedal %" in VCDS). Measuring blocks also has a slower sampling rate than VAG-COM in Turbo mode (Turbo mode only works with genuine Hex+com/usb+Can cables, like the one I bought).

Correcting trip computer is really easy, but only a few constants are exposed (injector, trip computer, rev limiter, etc). Here are the maps available for AMB motors:

[bananas]

I posted screenshots of the first 20 Maestro Maps and what I assume they do here: http://eurodyne.ca/forum/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=689

[Hansi]

This is great bananas, very helpful :)

I will hopefully receive my file from Eurodyne soon so I can start tweaking. Keep up the good work :)

[Don Supreme]

This is the future.

[bananas]

... added screenshots of the remainder of the maps/constants/toggles. See link in updated first post.

[EBG 18T]

very intersting. This is a powerful tool for those with expereince and knowledge.

[dougyfresh]

very intersting. This is a powerful tool for those with expereince and knowledge.

that is the key right there.

[EBG 18T]

that is the key right there.

Thus the reason i paid for my custom tune. I didn't have the knowledge or expereince.

[dougyfresh]

Thus the reason i paid for my custom tune. I didn't have the knowledge or expereince.

I just don't have the time. Someday, perhaps, I'll find the time and can put Maestro on my spare ECu.

[SleeperAvant]

I would like to see your PID and Duty maps to control your N75.

[bananas]

I would like to see your PID and Duty maps to control your N75.

These maps produce a somewhat rough 22-20.5psi taper on my car. It's still hunting a bit too much, but I haven't spent much time trying to smooth it out.

Max VE:


PID:


N75 Duty

[SleeperAvant]

Thanks, yeah I had a lot of hunting with the N75 when I tried. I scrapped it and am using an MBC now.

[lave3k]

Interesting shape for the max volumetric efficiency curve. I would have expected it to be roughly shaped like your torque curve? While in general that looks like a better fit for a power curve.

[AudiA4Turbo22]

that is the key right there.

Was just gonna say this.

For all of u considering this software but have NEVER dealt with anything similar, STEER CLEAR. You CAN do more damage to your car by playing with this if u have no idea what you are doing. This isn't a system of failsafes, if u mess with timing enough, etc some damage can take place. People using this software KNOW what they are DOING. I want this as well, but I'll end up destroying something since I have no idea how to use it properly.

[bananas]

For all of u considering this software but have NEVER dealt with anything similar, STEER CLEAR. You CAN do more damage to your car by playing with this if u have no idea what you are doing. This isn't a system of failsafes, if u mess with timing enough, etc some damage can take place. People using this software KNOW what they are DOING. I want this as well, but I'll end up destroying something since I have no idea how to use it properly.

Absolutely agree that you shouldn't tinker unless you know what you're doing. However, even if you're utterly clueless you can still use Maestro and then get your local tuner (or your local geeky friend) to dyno tune your car using this system. For instance, I'm the one dialing in gotboost's car.

[Hansi]

very intersting. This is a powerful tool for those with expereince and knowledge.

I partially agree. As more users start using this and knowledge about it becomes common, this should be more and more for "everyone".

As far as I have understood you are provided with a base map which should be fairly good from the start, and maybe only minor changes are required for your setup.

However, everyone should be aware that making big changes without knowing what they do can potentially cause engine damage.

[bananas]

Interesting shape for the max volumetric efficiency curve. I would have expected it to be roughly shaped like your torque curve? While in general that looks like a better fit for a power curve.

The formula they use to calculate load is what dictates the shape of this curve... I agree it seems logical that the max ve curve *should* approximate the torque curve, but for whatever reason that's obviously not how motronic defined engine load. It's interesting to toy with the requested load values and see what throttle plate and requested boost numbers the ECU spits out.

[bananas]

Got some more logs up... individual pulls in 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th gears. This was at somewhere around 23-24psi or so (AVC-R controlled)

http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...SZGh2b2c&hl=en

[bananas]

25psi logs after adding some fuel on the top end

http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...5aU9BWEE&hl=en

If anyone is curious, the script I use to add the color gradients to the columns is here: http://stuff.sandgnat.com/google_sheet_format.txt
To use it, make sure you're using the "new" google docs, go to Tools->Scripts->Script Editor and paste the code in. Then, save and close your spreadsheet, then reopen it (*). You should have a new menu called "Advanced Formatting". Select a column and choose the color gradient you want.

* Or, you can get the menu to appear without reopening the spreadsheet by select onOpen from the Run menu in the Script Editor

[613B6]

I like the colour gradients and sounds like your getting the hang of the software/logging features. Very impormative post in the eurodyne forum, I can't get wait to get my hands on it, I'm heading over to see Chris on Monday.

[bananas]

Today was the annual spring dyno day for MitsuStyle.com (a local car club I hang out with) so I put the car on the rollers in its current state. In the spring they dyno at one sponsor's shop, DBPTuning.com, where they have a Dyno Dynamics AWD dyno. In the fall they go to MAPerformance.com which has a linked dynojet dyno. My previous dyno numbers were on the dynojet, these ones are on Dyno Dynamics. The car is boosting a tiny bit more (26psi) than my previous dyno on Unitronic, and is perhaps making a few horsepower (debatable, but the butt dyno agrees). My AVC-R settings weren't quite right (I was spiking 30psi and holding 26 or so). I was able to fix the boost control immediately AFTER the dyno to spike 27 and hold 27 with very little fluctuation.

Final numbers: 295awhp/308awtq. All in all, I was happy with those numbers, although I did want to break 300 on this dyno :) This is the area's "heart breaker" dyno and it is well deserved. Last time I was at this shop I put down 242whp on the beta ASP tune. In the "dynojet comparison mode" (shootout), the number was 348whp/363wtq. Fueling is "good enough" for now. It went a little wonky (between 11 and 12:1) because of my meth kicking in and the closed loop trying to figure out wtf was going on, since I ran my meth in the single stage (non-progressive) mode. I think I'm going to pull a little timing out due to the increased boost. Logs here: http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...fMkNyeVE&hl=en

Last comment: haters be gone. I don't need a lecture on dynos, I already get it. I dyno'd for me, not for you

Torque



AFR



Boost



Shootout numbers


And from the shops leaderboard... a stock '05 A4 1.8T did just under 120whp on this dyno. The '01 A4 is my friends APR S3+:

[SleeperAvant]

Those damn Civics and Evo's

Very nice Chris!