RS4 MAF vs S4 MAF for stage III setups ...

[Audi_S4]

What's the purpose of a RS4 maf in stage III cars.

Im gonna start a stage III build soon,

Here in Belgium and Netherlands guys drive stage III s4's with stock S4 MAF without any problem. we have 2 big tuners here that do custom tuning with the laptop on dyno/road and both say it's not nessecary to put on an RS4 MAF instead of the stock one for custom tuning

Could someone explain the difference , or why one is better , or is a S4 MAF restricted up to xxx amount of hp ?

Thanks

[ThirdStrike]

rs4 maf is 83mm in diameter (air flow 320 g/sec) , stock is 73 mm(air flow 220 g/sec). I wouldnt run k04's on a stock maf housing/sensor. The tune would not be as aggressive as it should be

[Raacerx]

on a serious stage 3 setup you will be pulling nearly 350 g/s with a stock MAF. MAF cannot read accurately that high. A larger MAF scales this down and makes it easier to tune. GT turbo setups (and some K04) tuners run a 90mm MAF.

Stock MAF maxes out around 330g/s. What kind of power are the setups you speak of putting down to the wheels, tuned on a stock MAF? Every RS4/K04 kit available in the USA runs a larger MAF. I can't imagine any Stage 3 setup on stock MAF running more then 320 or 330whp or something. Or run very well.

[NOTORIOUS VR]

If the factory even put a lager MAF you would think it's the proper way to do it. Kind of strange that these 'tuners' would suggest going to a bigger MAF isn't necessary

[gollygwagen]

Just to fuel the fire, I've got a stock MAF and made 380whp recently. Of course at our altitude (6000') there is a lot less air to measure.

That said, I'm installing an RS4 MAF and injectors this week for my custom tune from Avalon.

[NOTORIOUS VR]

^^^ It's obviously possible to tune... but why work off the scale when you have the possibility to tune properly

[ThirdStrike]

Just to fuel the fire, I've got a stock MAF and made 380whp recently. Of course at our altitude (6000') there is a lot less air to measure.

That said, I'm installing an RS4 MAF and injectors this week for my custom tune from Avalon.

with no other changes to your car put it on the same dyno. i bet it makes 400whp or more

[JaiMoney]

Just to fuel the fire, I've got a stock MAF and made 380whp recently. Of course at our altitude (6000') there is a lot less air to measure.

That said, I'm installing an RS4 MAF and injectors this week for my custom tune from Avalon.

Hey Chuck! What fueling are you running before this weeks upgrade? I'm going stage 3 in about 2 weeks and some high altitude input would be appreciated!

[gollygwagen]

I was running the GIAC supertweaker software that I messed with to get it to work with my hardware. It did OK, but a custom tune is where it's at from all the results I've seen firsthand. I should be able to make the same power with a LOT less boost, and make it reliably and sooner. I don't actually want to make any more power as my race category will change if I jump over 400whp and I want some room for dyno error.

[Audi_S4]

on a serious stage 3 setup you will be pulling nearly 350 g/s with a stock MAF. MAF cannot read accurately that high. A larger MAF scales this down and makes it easier to tune. GT turbo setups (and some K04) tuners run a 90mm MAF.

Stock MAF maxes out around 330g/s. What kind of power are the setups you speak of putting down to the wheels, tuned on a stock MAF? Every RS4/K04 kit available in the USA runs a larger MAF. I can't imagine any Stage 3 setup on stock MAF running more then 320 or 330whp or something. Or run very well.

400-410 at the Crank @ 21 PSI , I tought that was rather low too concidering the amount of boost

What power should a normal RS4 car with full exhaust and fueling make?

Around 430-450 at the crank @ 20psi?

[NOTORIOUS VR]

400-410 at the Crank @ 21 PSI ,

I made 400 @ the crank @ 20psi on my K03's (Stage II+)

So yes, for K04's that's very low.

[ThirdStrike]

What power should a normal RS4 car with full exhaust and fueling make?

~490-520bhp
lots of cars have made 400 whp on s4 engines with rs4 setups. add 20% drive train loss and there you have 500 hp

[Audi_S4]

I did found it extremele strange that they only made 400 at the crank. My stage II with cat back and software made 270whp @ 16psi , that's almost 340 at the crank.
I'm not in the mood on paying over 5k on K04 build to make 60 horses more at the crank.

I was aiming at 450-460 crank, then I'm satisfied

[ThirdStrike]

do it right. get a setup with an 85mm maf. Vast, ASP, 034, the usual suspects can make 500 hp on the 2.7. its capable.

[Audi_S4]

Ok I just sent 034 a message!

My car was tuned by the same guy last time and it was done perfectly! all his work is perfect nothing about that, only the Stage III nr's are friggin low !

[Capt. Obvious]

Why do all the B5 guys even run a MAF at all? Most of the B6 guys (1.8T of course) with big turbos don't even bother with a MAF.

[ThirdStrike]

Why do all the B5 guys even run a MAF at all? Most of the B6 guys (1.8T of course) with big turbos don't even bother with a MAF.

lol really?
because the b6 ecm runs off the primary 02 sensor (and has no return fuel system)
mafless me7 tunes are available for the 1.8t (for any car vw or b5) like none other, but i havent seen one for the 2.7 yet. Welcome to the b5s4

[Capt. Obvious]

Interesting. Well, 2.7Ts obviously work just fine with a MAF since plenty of people make monster power with them still.

[ThirdStrike]

Interesting. Well, 2.7Ts obviously work just fine with a MAF since plenty of people make monster power with them still.

"work just fine" is relative. i think my next project is going to be a cheap azz a4 quattro with a b6 ecm/cluster swap, and a 76mm turbo. kind of sick of maf tuned cars.

[Capt. Obvious]

You should have traded me for my B6! It'd have been a win-win.

[s2the4]

What's the purpose of a RS4 maf in stage III cars.

Im gonna start a stage III build soon,

Here in Belgium and Netherlands guys drive stage III s4's with stock S4 MAF without any problem. we have 2 big tuners here that do custom tuning with the laptop on dyno/road and both say it's not nessecary to put on an RS4 MAF instead of the stock one for custom tuning


Could someone explain the difference , or why one is better , or is a S4 MAF restricted up to xxx amount of hp ?

Thanks

let me guess MTM and MRC? and you should run a larger MAF otherwise you won't get to utilize all your potential power.

[NOTORIOUS VR]

because the b6 ecm runs off the primary 02 sensor

I find it difficult to believe that the ECM run's pure closed loop.

[Audi_S4]

I'll just put on a RS4 MAF when the time comes for custom tuning. seems there is alot power left aside without it!

[awd2ks4]

Yeah 400chp is weak for stage 3, my ko3s made that on 18psi. Stage 3 upgrade is good for at least 75-100whp gain.

[Audi_S4]

That's what I was aiming for, 380whp is a must!

[Audi_S4]

Will it run ,even start and idle properly if I change turbo's,fuelpump,RS4 MAF, Siemens 60lb injectors?

[TweetsS4Estate]

NO it wont you would need a re-tune!

[The_Jerbel]

Will it run ,even start and idle properly if I change turbo's,fuelpump,RS4 MAF, Siemens 60lb injectors?

It will start and idle, but it won't run properly at all.

[veggiemonster]

OP are you confusing the maf with the maf housing?

[Audi_S4]

I don't know What I mean is this:

http://www.motoso.de/luftmassenmesse...-i35398689.htm

Are you saying I Can put in my MAF "sensor" in a 83mm MAF "housing" ???

[The_Jerbel]

Yes.

[Audi_S4]

Do I need a FPR with this setup ?

[The_Jerbel]

Nope.

[Audi_S4]

I got in to a little discussion with the tuner about the S4 maf vs RS4 maf and power levels exceeding 450bhp on OEM K04's and am now forced to find me a new one...
I told him I'm not spending 5k on mods now for a measly 400@crank and I really wanna make the best of it wit all the mods...

I sent him a PM on a NL forum about this thread and all the good arguments you guys had and got this as an answer:

I will quote him:

I'm sorry, I will not play your whohasthelongest dick election of the year! I tune cars my way and 400bhp is the max for the 2.7T with OEM K04's. The RS4 MAF will not make any difference even if you wanted it too, What they do in America does not affect me one bit and I don't care! I did not read the topic and am not going to! I'm not going to participate in your game, good luck with your project


I was like WTF ... In my country(belgium) we have NOT one person who can custom tune my car, this dude was in Netherlands but he's out of the Question now, damn what a way of working with customers these days ....

So this is what it's gonna be!

AWE DP's + SS exhaust
IPP IC's
RS4 K04 turbo's
ASP stage IIII Clutch
Siemens Deka Injectors
Bosh 044 pump
RS4 MAF

I remember 2yrs ago I mailed with some big vendors and also Marc10sec for buying a stage I ECU but they all told me Euro Spec S4's have different ECU's and you guys in US are not familiar with them...
Otherwise I would just send my ECU to VAST or someone for a flash ....

[fatezero]

AWE can help you. GIAC/AWE I believe has a tune for Euro S4's for their Stage 3 package. I would start there. Also contact Mark at ASP, they might have something as well.

[The_Jerbel]

That is possibly the worst customer service I've ever seen from a big-name tuning company. Shameful.

He is dead wrong about the MAF housing, BTW. I've seen direct comparisons between the OEM MAF housing and the RS4, and the RS4 flows more air mass, which translates into more power. Even K04's are capable of taking advantage of the extra air mass. Period. Like I said, I know this from first hand experimentation and logging.

[shokwav09]

If the factory even put a lager MAF you would think it's the proper way to do it. Kind of strange that these 'tuners' would suggest going to a bigger MAF isn't necessary

i wonder if theyre using map clamps or loops.

[vtraudt]

Just to fuel the fire, I've got a stock MAF and made 380whp recently. Of course at our altitude (6000') there is a lot less air to measure.

That said, I'm installing an RS4 MAF and injectors this week for my custom tune from Avalon.

I have zero diameter MAF and make 380 whp (think mafless tunes). Everything is possible. But obviously using a properly sized maf (and scale) is the way to go.

[BEEBOP]

I find it difficult to believe that the ECM run's pure closed loop.

Its probably like the same ecm that is in a mk4.

You can go mafless with aww awp ecm .

Not as precise as with a maf, but it's working.



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[insomniacxp1]

Man I feel bad for you that blows. I, like have, suggest you contact some US suppliers and you'll probably have some luck. It would be ideal if you could take logs and then remote tune it with someone over here.