Audi S4/RS4/S5 V8 Dyno Comparisons

[034Motorsport]

Figured I'd toss these together this weekend, especially since we had a very nicely performing RS4 in a few weeks back.

All of the V8s were stock, with the exception of the ABZ in our B3 "V80", which has an intake, exhaust, ported head, 3.6L exhaust manifolds, and is tuned on our Stage IIc standalone ECU.

First off, the comparison:

- The B6 S4 dyno is actually from JHM's car back when it was stock. It also put down the most power out of all of the 6-MT V8 S4s we've seen, but they are all within ~10WHP.

- The B7 RS4 dyno is from the strongest RS4 we've had on our dyno to date. The numbers on these cars vary greatly due to issues that I'm sure you all are very familiar with. This is the only B7 RS4 that has made over 300WHP on our dyno.

- The B8 S5 dyno is one of the 2 B8 S5s we've had on the dyno. They both were remarkably consistent, making almost exactly the same power on multiple runs. Then again, they were basically brand new.

On another note, I'm sure those of you who are running/following Jason/JHM's products would be pleasantly surprised to know where they would be on this chart as of a few days ago when they visited our dyno.

Next, the lowest B7 RS4 dyno compared to the highest B7 RS4 dyno.

Neither of these cars had any codes stored in the ECU. Most B7 RS4s dyno right about inbetween these two, making 270-285WHP.

Finally, our very own "V80" compared to a stock 5V V8.

I know that the majority of you want to see NA Audi V8 numbers, so I will graciously end this post without any B8 S4 dynos, B5 S4 dynos, 900+WHP Time Attack A4 dynos, Yamaha R1 dynos, Evolution X dynos, or Dacia Sandero dynos.

[034Motorsport]

DISCLAIMER: None of these dyno tests were performed in a wind tunnel, but they were all done in 3rd gear.

[KryptoniK]

Awesome, thanks for the camparisons. It's interesting to see the lines of the RS4 FSI/V8 vs the S5 FSI/V8. The S5 is stronger than the RS4 below 5500 RPM and after 5500 RPM the RS4 becomes stronger and goes an extra 1K RPM longer with that power.

Would love to see what kind of power the RS5 will put down with a more powerful version of the RS4 motor... if that's what they decide to use.

[mattlqx]

Thanks for the info. Man, that 240whp RS4 run is seriously hosed if all things are equal aside from the cars. I'm glad that I do in fact hit the middle of that range at 285whp, better than the alternative.

[drew]

v8 s5 makes 40 more wheel then a b6 s4? lol give me a break.....

what a joke!

[CoDRoX]

Funny, the B7 RS4 Fail and B7 RS4 Win labels :D

[SeKKeY]

v8 s5 makes 40 more wheel then a b6 s4? lol give me a break.....

what a joke!

is it because the 4.2 in the S5 has FSI?

[mattlqx]

The S5 also has modified Torsen, though I'm not sure if that's a difference maker combined with the FSI.

[KryptoniK]

v8 s5 makes 40 more wheel then a b6 s4? lol give me a break.....

what a joke!

S5 V8-FSI = 349hp/325lb-tq
S4 V8 = 339hp/302lb-tq

Maybe the way the S5 puts the power down to the ground.... less drivetrain loss than the S4?

After doing some calculations.... example: if the S4 is at 22% drivetrain loss... the S5 would be at 15% drivetrain loss.. doesn't sound like the reason for 40 whp more.

[rlarsen462]

I seriously doubt the S5 has HALF the drivetrain loss of the S4. Not unless it uses like damn near frictionless bearings and unobtanium infused gear oils. I'd be more willing to accept an underrated CHP number from the factory than that.

[SeKKeY]

the 07 and 08 S4 have the same diff as the RS4 though, maybe throw a newer S4 on the dyno?

[jfunkey]

I will graciously end this post without any B8 S4 dynos, B5 S4 dynos, 900+WHP Time Attack A4 dynos, Yamaha R1 dynos, Evolution X dynos, or Dacia Sandero dynos.

That for that bro. I would rather see the V8 stuff. Not super interested in the other stuff

[Arin@APR]

DISCLAIMER: None of these dyno tests were performed in a wind tunnel, but they were all done in 3rd gear.

Then it goes without saying everything you've posted is false.

j/k...

[034Motorsport]

v8 s5 makes 40 more wheel then a b6 s4? lol give me a break.....

what a joke!

Not a joke at all.

We were fairly surprised as well. It is a 4V FSI motor, and those heads flow a lot better than the 5V ones did. The acceleration and 1/4 mile times of the B8 S5 (which is heavier, IIRC) do seem to back this up. It also makes more torque and has a meatier low end than the RS4, likely due to the cams in it.

What is interesting is that Audi didn't change their claimed numbers as drastically as these dynos indicate. These WHP numbers seem right on the mark, if not a bit high for the B8 S5's claimed HP, while the earlier V8s seemed a bit low.

And yes, we have had a motor in a car on our dyno and out of the car on an engine dyno to estimate drivetrain loss. The I5 20VT that we built for the Castrol Top-Shop Challenge made 703WHP on our dyno with an 01E Quattro drivetrain, and 848CHP on the engine dyno used for the competition. That comes out to about 17.1% in case you're whipping out your calculator/abacus.

FWIW, the highest horsepower NA BHF car on our dyno (besides JHM's ) was a B7 S4 that made about 280WHP, IIRC.

We will have a 3rd B8 S5 here on Friday for an AWE exhaust installation; perhaps I can convince him to put his car on the dyno as well to confirm the numbers.

[KryptoniK]

Then it goes without saying everything you've posted is false.

j/k...

lol!

[KryptoniK]

I seriously doubt the S5 has HALF the drivetrain loss of the S4. Not unless it uses like damn near frictionless bearings and unobtanium infused gear oils. I'd be more willing to accept an underrated CHP number from the factory than that.

X2... that sounds more reasonable. Manufacturers underrating CHP does occur.

[rlarsen462]

So basically what I said, more than likely underrated from the factory while perhaps the S4 was overrated. The drivetrain loss is likely quite similar between the two. Either way, makes me wish even more that I could've logistically done the S5 at the time I bought, but I needed 4 doors.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and another $20K. :D

[034Motorsport]

S5 V8-FSI = 349hp/325lb-tq
S4 V8 = 339hp/302lb-tq

Maybe the way the S5 puts the power down to the ground.... less drivetrain loss than the S4?

After doing some calculations.... if the S4 is at 22% drivetrain loss... the S5 would be at 15% drivetrain loss.. doesn't sound right.

I seriously doubt that it's the drivetrain. We did dynos with an 01E driveline on our dyno and compared them with our same motor on an engine dyno, and calculated roughly a 17% loss. The B6 S4 driveline is not drastically different from that.

Thanks for the info. Man, that 240whp RS4 run is seriously hosed if all things are equal aside from the cars. I'm glad that I do in fact hit the middle of that range at 285whp, better than the alternative.

Just keep changing that oil and pull your IM off every now and then too look for carbon gremlins.

That for that bro. I would rather see the V8 stuff. Not super interested in the other stuff

Not even the Dacia Sandero?

Then it goes without saying everything you've posted is false.

j/k...

Shit, you caught me!!! And did you notice that I made the dynos in MS Paint?

[quiksilver0220]

thought that the 4th gear was more close to 1 to 1 which would therefore be the desired gear ratio to dyno in. I being a longtime LSX guy that has owned many high rwhp GMs which I still have a 560 rwhp all na 427 powered maro 6 speed and a turbo 408 auto trans am and both cars were always dynoed in 4th in both the 6 speed and the auto. Figured that it would be the same with most cars and I tried dynoing in 3rd in both cars and made considerably less rwhp. Just a thought

[KryptoniK]

thought that the 4th gear was more close to 1 to 1 which would therefore be the desired gear ratio to dyno in. I being a longtime LSX guy that has owned many high rwhp GMs which I still have a 560 rwhp all na 427 powered maro 6 speed and a turbo 408 auto trans am and both cars were always dynoed in 4th in both the 6 speed and the auto. Figured that it would be the same with most cars and I tried dynoing in 3rd in both cars and made considerably less rwhp. Just a thought

Actually you're right... I didn't realize that part. My RS4 and previous S4 have always been dynoed in 4th gear on multiple dynos. Why did 034 decide to use 3rd gear? (nevermind, I get it)

[quiksilver0220]

An I went and looked it up and I am correct dynoing in 3rd causes more drivetrain loss and is very INCORRECT


B6 S4
Manual
Make: Getrag six-speed (M6S)
1st: 3.667
2nd: 2.050
3rd: 1.462
4th: 1.133
5th: 0.919
6th: 0.778
Clutch: 240 millimetre single plate dry clutch
Center Diff: Torsen T-2
Final drive: 3.889
Speed in Gear: 24.4 mph per 1000 rpm

Mechatronic
Make: ZF 6HP19
1st: 4.171
2nd: 2.340
3rd: 1.521
4th: 1.143
5th: 0.867
6th: 0.691
Center Diff: Torsen T-2
Final drive: 3.539

[rlarsen462]

Guys, I haven't even been around that long and even I know the 3rd gear thing was a joke...

[quiksilver0220]

this is a good question and I promise if all cars are redynoed in 4th they will make a noticable increase in power. Not saying this is what they are doing but to make some cars numbers look bad an others look better I have seen some dyno shops dyno cars in 3rd and then others in 4th. Its another one of those easy tricks to scue numbers

[quiksilver0220]

you may be correct I may have taken it wrong lol but it is some food for thought considering my stock B6 S4 made 273 awhp with nothing more than a catback exhaust no chip no piggies nothing else hummmmmmm I guess I have a freak lol

[KryptoniK]

B7 RS4
Manual
Make: Getrag six-speed (0A3)
1st: 3.667
2nd: 2.211
3rd: 1.520
4th: 1.133
5th: 0.919
6th: 0.778
Final drive: 4.111

[vintagespin]

In the B6 A4 forum when member Jet Jockey was building his track car (2.0L 3076r, etc.) and he posted up dyno results, there was an interesting debate on drivetrain loss that ensued. I thought the following posts were interesting and hopefully relevant. I'd like to discuss the merits & validity of the posts as well.

It's important to realize that the drive train loss varies depending on the transmitted torque levels. Just because the stock friction losses are ~22 to ~25 percent, the relative losses at the power levels with your setup now are not the same. The losses at the new power/torque levels are less than the assumed values at the stock torque levels. It is not a linear relationship.

Another way to look at this issue is to understand that ~23% of ~170 hp is not really relevant to the situation because ~23% of 500 hp (for example,) would mean the drive line loss increases linearly with transmitted torque/HP, and that is not the case. The driveline loss is fairly constant, within the range of variation that exists depending on rpm and gear tooth loading etc. (including viscous drag of the gear lube, and CV joint grease, being mainly only rpm and temperature dependent and is very non linear, ) Therefore, the relative loss at 500 hp is a lot lower as a percentage of transmitted power compared to the assumed stock situation.

It is also interesting to note that he dynoed less in 4th gear (384awhp) vs. 3rd gear (410awhp). 4th gear is more accurate, supposedly, because (as stated before) you want to try and get as close to a 1:1 ratio as possible.

[034Motorsport]

Apparently nobody got the "dyno in 3rd gear" joke...

Our dyno records both wheel speed and engine speed, measures torque, and then calculates horsepower.

FWIW, the gear in which the car is in on the dyno does not have a large effect on the WHP for an NA car on our dyno... I'd be happy to dig up our testing on that when I get a chance. With a turbocharged car it will change the load and therefore spool; typically a higher gear will bump up the torque figures, and the car will make less peak power (since pulls in higher gears take longer, and the charge air gets hotter).

This is what happened with our Time Attack A4 VR6T at the ETGP this year. We couldn't get clean pulls without wheelspin, and had to dyno in a higher gear. HP dropped a bit, but boost came on sooner and peak torque was higher.

[vintagespin]

Interesting. What's your take on the Drivetrain Loss vs. torque argument? It seems that your I5 engine vs. chassis dyno comparison seems to support the theory that the loss is not a set percentage that can be applied in a linear fashion.

[034Motorsport]

Interesting. What's your take on the Drivetrain Loss vs. torque argument? It seems that your I5 engine vs. chassis dyno comparison seems to support the theory that the loss is not a set percentage that can be applied in a linear fashion.

We're sticking with the percentage. A ~17% DTL makes sense when we look at our stock B5 A4, B5 S4, B7 A4, B8 S5, and 703WHP/848CHP 80TQ data.

Some people think it's a fixed percentage. Some people that it's a percentage that changes with speed - the higher you're revving, the more friction there is to overcome - which makes some sense. Some people just think it's a fixed integer.

However, these are all just opinions. I have yet to see conclusive data, but for now, the fixed percentage is what's commonly accepted. The DTL theories can be debated to death, but proper, conclusive testing would be a daunting (and expensive) task. So please, leave that for another thread.

[SpeedETC]

On another note, I'm sure those of you who are running/following Jason/JHM's products would be pleasantly surprised to know where they would be on this chart as of a few days ago when they visited our dyno.

Wow, what a tease..

[JohnnyAlQaeda]

lol

[quiksilver0220]

n another note, I'm sure those of you who are running/following Jason/JHM's products would be pleasantly surprised to know where they would be on this chart as of a few days ago when they visited our dyno.



Hehehehe Id love to see that personally

[034Motorsport]

Wow, what a tease..

Please... I'm known to go all the way for just five dollars... And a bacon cheeseburger.

[Justincredible]

Our dyno records both wheel speed and engine speed, measures torque, and then calculates horsepower.

FWIW, the gear in which the car is in on the dyno does not have a large effect on the WHP for an NA car on our dyno...

With a turbocharged car it will change the load and therefore spool; typically a higher gear will bump up the torque figures, and the car will make less peak power (since pulls in higher gears take longer, and the charge air gets hotter).

This is what happened with our Time Attack A4 VR6T at the ETGP this year. We couldn't get clean pulls without wheelspin, and had to dyno in a higher gear. HP dropped a bit, but boost came on sooner and peak torque was higher.

Being someone that ran a dyno for several years I can say this is true. The hp tq numbers will be effected much more on a turbo car then a n/a car.

The N/A car will get better results in 4th gear. How much better is going to differ from car to car also depending on system to system. A standalone system is going to be effected less then an adaptive system

[duud40]

Ok ok ... All this is very good but what do you have agains the Dacia Sandero ?
I think it`s a pretty good effort.

[NY07RS4]

Ok ok ... All this is very good but what do you have agains the Dacia Sandero ?
I think it`s a pretty good effort.

I was waiting for someone to post the pic.

[SpeedETC]

Please... I'm known to go all the way for just five dollars... And a bacon cheeseburger.

lol - Anyway, back to the topic... And when are you going to stuff a VR6 into a B6 chassis?

[McGyver]

Ok, that "fail" of a RS4 may have been my first run, Laszlo, back in August. My best was a 253, I believe, which was still quite pathetic. I may bring her in next week for another dyno given that I have had the carbon-clean procedure performed by frrg. According to my butt dyno and his logs (before and after), I'd bet my house that we'll see some meaningful improvement.

[Auditude2.0T]

They have all thats needed to drop a VR6 Turbo in a B6 S4 they even got me pricing.

[034Motorsport]

lol - Anyway, back to the topic... And when are you going to stuff a VR6 into a B6 chassis?

Maybe never. However, we will be doing plenty of interesting things with the B6/B7 in the future.

Ok, that "fail" of a RS4 may have been my first run, Laszlo, back in August. My best was a 253, I believe, which was still quite pathetic. I may bring her in next week for another dyno given that I have had the carbon-clean procedure performed by frrg. According to my butt dyno and his logs (before and after), I'd bet my house that we'll see some meaningful improvement.

Indeed it may be. Please do bring it back; it would be interesting to see the difference after the cleanup. Shoot me a PM, and I'll get you set up on our schedule.

Out of curiosity, did you attempt to get in touch with your dealer or AoA at all regarding the issue?