RS4: Intake Manifold Carbon Build-Up & Clean Up

[jalas]

Lots of threads on this but decided to document mine anyway since the manifold is going to silverRS4 for a port and polish tomorrow!

On the path to "clean up" my RS4 (DRC replaced by Audi at 40k miles) I am now tackling the carbon build-up issue.

After a good eight hours of work on the manifold I finally got it off. This is not a super easy task and takes a GREAT deal of patience and time. My car has 40,500 miles and is a 2007 for reference. Just as expected the valves are all caked with a thick oily mess. Best way to describe it is sludge like but harder.

I managed to get one set of valves cleaned in 2 hours. Lucky me just 7 more sets to go!!!! I would say don't expect them to come out looking like you could eat off of them but you can remove 95% of the crap on them. FYI, I had Audi "clean" my valves at 38,500 miles using a worthless product in the intake manifold (BG) and I'm 100% certain it did little to nothing.

Like everyone else who owns an RS4, I wish Audi would fix this or give us life time cleanings.

Some pics:

Intake Port Vanes: One is clean and 7 others look like the mess above.


Valves: 2 clean and 14 to go!!


Intake Ports filled with SeaFoam. The stuff works!!


Intake Manifold Runners:

[drew]

wow...thats ridiculous...

[ahhhudi]

DAMN!

That looks far worse than what I thought initially. Thanks for taking those pics and posting them up.

[CHECKERED]

Wouldn’t it be easier to get water injection? I’m talking about a small 200cc per hour nozzle that's only on under medium-heavy load

[spyder101]

Ahhh yes, Been there, done that. Good times right there.

[KryptoniK]

Wouldn’t it be easier to get water injection? I’m talking about a small 200cc per hour nozzle that's only on under medium-heavy load

I believe meth will only maintain cleanliness if the valves are already clean to begin with. I doubt it will help clean the caked up mess that the OP already has.

I plan on doing a valve cleaning once I take the IM off for the S/C install.. then add an oil catch can and meth injection. Should keep the entire system spotless.

[RS4POWER]

Your valves don't look as bad as mine did. Maybe its just the pictures and I cant see the severity.

You are right, this project needs a lot of patience and time. Your IM will be in good hands with Tim! He did the port and polish on my IM and his work and communication is top notch.

Post impressions after you have her up and running.

[jalas]

Your valves don't look as bad as mine did. Maybe its just the pictures and I cant see the severity.

You are right, this project needs a lot of patience and time. Your IM will be in good hands with Tim! He did the port and polish on my IM and his work and communication is top notch.

Post impressions after you have her up and running.

I agree that my valves did not look like some other shots I have seen, which I was happy to see to some extent. Nevertheless, they shouldn't even come close to what I have.

Next Sunday I plan on having it ready to go!!

[RS4POWER]

I agree that my valves did not look like some other shots I have seen, which I was happy to see to some extent. Nevertheless, they shouldn't even come close to what I have.

Next Sunday I plan on having it ready to go!!

Nobody should have to deal with CB nor DRC issues on a 75k dollar car.

[FarmerBob]

How can any car manufacturer look at pictures with this overly excessive carbon build up, on a $75,000-80,000 automobile they made, only 2 yrs old, with low miles and still covered by their warranty, and not issue a recall or TSB to fix this problem?

Are you saying that the pictures above are what your intake looked like AFTER AUDI "fixed" your problem under warranty? Amazing. What did Audi of North America say after you sent them these pictures of your intake/valves? This is like not having any warranty at all.

And, if something happens to your engine while you're doing something to actually fix it (like Seafoam or an independent shop to clean the valves/intake that YOU PAY FOR, then they will deny any further warranty coverage due to your actions. Good luck with the cleaning.

[McGyver]

Nice thread, thanks for posting. I'll be doing this in January with another member, frrg

[jalas]

How can any car manufacturer look at pictures with this overly excessive carbon build up, on a $75,000-80,000 automobile they made, only 2 yrs old, with low miles and still covered by their warranty, and not issue a recall or TSB to fix this problem?

Not just the RS4. All 2.0T FSI motors have this problem, which is a huge installed base.

Are you saying that the pictures above are what your intake looked like AFTER AUDI "fixed" your problem under warranty? Amazing. What did Audi of North America say after you sent them these pictures of your intake/valves? This is like not having any warranty at all.

This is what they looked like after Audi did the cleaning at my request one month ago. The cleaning does not involve removing the manifold but running a BG product through the intake stream. I paid $249.00 plus tax. I have not sent the pics just yet to Audi given I just pulled the manifold off yesterday. The bottom line with Audi is they will not pull the manifold to simply inspect what customers perceive to be a problem. I agree that it should be covered under warranty or recalled but easier said then done. Having the DRC replaced took a few calls and they were quite hesitant to replace the system.

And, if something happens to your engine while you're doing something to actually fix it (like Seafoam or an independent shop to clean the valves/intake that YOU PAY FOR, then they will deny any further warranty coverage due to your actions. Good luck with the cleaning.

Just like not having the warranty for them to clean it in the first place. In any event looking forward to the port and polish and clean valves to match. Should be one off the fastest RS4s in the country!!! At least for the next 1000 miles!

[ArthurPE]

Lots of threads on this but decided to document mine anyway since the manifold is going to silverRS4 for a port and polish tomorrow!

On the path to "clean up" my RS4 (DRC replaced by Audi at 40k miles) I am now tackling the carbon build-up issue.

After a good eight hours of work on the manifold I finally got it off. This is not a super easy task and takes a GREAT deal of patience and time. My car has 40,500 miles and is a 2007 for reference. Just as expected the valves are all caked with a thick oily mess. Best way to describe it is sludge like but harder.

I managed to get one set of valves cleaned in 2 hours. Lucky me just 7 more sets to go!!!! I would say don't expect them to come out looking like you could eat off of them but you can remove 95% of the crap on them. FYI, I had Audi "clean" my valves at 38,500 miles using a worthless product in the intake manifold (BG) and I'm 100% certain it did little to nothing.

Like everyone else who owns an RS4, I wish Audi would fix this or give us life time cleanings.

Some pics:

Valves: 2 clean and 14 to go!!

it's hard to see, but the valves adjacent to the cleaned ones don't look too bad...do you have pics of them?

[jalas]

it's hard to see, but the valves adjacent to the cleaned ones don't look too bad...do you have pics of them?

I'll take better pics.

FYI, I just called Audi to see what can be done and as usual had to escalate.

[UGwagen]

How can any car manufacturer look at pictures with this overly excessive carbon build up, on a $75,000-80,000 automobile they made, only 2 yrs old, with low miles and still covered by their warranty, and not issue a recall or TSB to fix this problem?

It's really called "Welcome to Direct Injection"

It is still a problem on most direct injection cars including TDI's. It's worse when you still have this problem on VAG's bread and butter cars, because eventually they may not upgrade their cars and jump ship to another manufacturer.

TDI's had it bad. The EGR & Intake manifold would get clogged in soot & oil to the point that it virtually plugs itself up!!!! That was a mess to clean up. Luckily, for some of the engines, we had ways to get around it (not exactly emissions legal)

The exception are on engines like found on the Lexus IS350, which has Toyota's D4-S, which utilizes both port & direct injection.

[ArthurPE]

I'll take better pics.

FYI, I just called Audi to see what can be done and as usual had to escalate.

thanks, I'ld be interested...with 40k miles to see what they look like...

[spyder101]

why are you cleaning the valves your self? The car should still be under factory warranty.

[FarmerBob]

It's really called "Welcome to Direct Injection"

It is still a problem on most direct injection cars including TDI's. It's worse when you still have this problem on VAG's bread and butter cars, because eventually they may not upgrade their cars and jump ship to another manufacturer.

TDI's had it bad. The EGR & Intake manifold would get clogged in soot & oil to the point that it virtually plugs itself up!!!! That was a mess to clean up. Luckily, for some of the engines, we had ways to get around it (not exactly emissions legal)

The exception are on engines like found on the Lexus IS350, which has Toyota's D4-S, which utilizes both port & direct injection.

I guess, thankfully, my old 2005 B6 S4 doesn't have direct injection, or FSI. Isn't this a new (2008 and up?) "upgrade" to most engines, at least from the high end manufacturers like Audi, Porsche, Lexus, Infinity?, BMW, etc? And if you actually pay more money for this design of the engine, then why does the Lexus direct injection engine not have this carbon build up issue? I don't even see how the valves could work with this kind of soot caked onto them, and after so low miles.

What is it about the Audi design that will cause their bread and butter 2.0 FSI motors to stop operating efficiently after very low miles? This is for the standard A4's, A6's, A8's, TT's, etc. built after 2008?

To the OP, I found that direct emails and attempts to reach this Audi of North America Vice President DIRECTLY (his name is Johan DeNyssen) made a difference in getting issues with Audi/dealership resolved properly. Johan will assign someone to help with your issue. The dealership will try to F__k you, and Johan will screw with their "quality service ranking" from Audi of North America, if they don't fix your problem. Here, they should just pay for your full intake/valve cleaning. In reality, Audi should be paying you for this fix, b/c you're doing the research and work for them, and then they should pay to have every intake on a FSI engine inspected, at a minimum. Toyota stepped up to the plate recently with their first recall (for accellerator pedals in their bread and butter cars), so why should Audi get a pass? GL.

[email protected]
Audi North America - 800 367-2834 Audi of America
customer care 1800 822-2834 m-f 8-8 eastern time
Audi of America
2200 Ferdinand Porsche Drive
Herndon, VA 20171 usa

[FarmerBob]

why are you cleaning the valves your self? The car should still be under factory warranty.

He said that Audi "DID" clean it for him, and yes his RS4 is still covered under warranty. The results of Audi's cleaning sucked, and Audi gave him back his car with the black soot/carbon buildup you see in the pictures above that he posted. In short, Audi threw some cleaner in there, said they won't take off the manifold to inspect any further, (probably tried to deny his warranty coverage completely b/c he had a "catback exhaust?), and said have fun with your $80K car still covered under warranty that is going flat after 6000 rpms.

Very similar to my experience with Audi, while my car was still covered under warranty, but mine's an S4. They really try to f--k with you (the dealership that is) until you show them the light. Amazing really.

[bryzf1]

Who sells an oil catch can for the rs4?

[jalas]

He said that Audi "DID" clean it for him, and yes his RS4 is still covered under warranty. The results of Audi's cleaning sucked, and Audi gave him back his car with the black soot/carbon buildup you see in the pictures above that he posted. In short, Audi threw some cleaner in there, said they won't take off the manifold to inspect any further, (probably tried to deny his warranty coverage completely b/c he had a "catback exhaust?), and said have fun with your $80K car still covered under warranty that is going flat after 6000 rpms.

Very similar to my experience with Audi, while my car was still covered under warranty, but mine's an S4. They really try to f--k with you (the dealership that is) until you show them the light. Amazing really.

Almost accurate. My car has zero engine mods, including exhaust. I like the way the car sounds so I may not ever do an exhaust. The only mods are 10mm rear spacers and an OEM front filler plate. Pretty much stock.

Like I said Audi did "clean" the car and did not want to open up the manifold to just see. Unless the car is throwing a code nothing is going to happen. In any event, I have opened a case with Audi. The car still has a warranty and they still are honoring it.

Honestly, I can't seem them doing too much given all the direct injection motors they have out there. More pics to come shortly.

[jalas]

Who sells an oil catch can for the rs4?

No one that I know of. Maybe the BSH catch can (just the can) will work instead of running it back into the intake.

[jalas]

[email protected]
Audi North America - 800 367-2834 Audi of America
customer care 1800 822-2834 m-f 8-8 eastern time
Audi of America
2200 Ferdinand Porsche Drive
Herndon, VA 20171 usa

Thanks FarmerBob!

[sakimano]

He said that Audi "DID" clean it for him, and yes his RS4 is still covered under warranty. .

not really...they charged him $250 to do a fluid flush. Crock.

[jalas]

More pics:











Manifold: Just one side since the other side looks the same!





Throttle body area:

[RS4POWER]

Almost accurate. My car has zero engine mods, including exhaust. I like the way the car sounds so I may not ever do an exhaust. The only mods are 10mm rear spacers and an OEM front filler plate. Pretty much stock.

Like I said Audi did "clean" the car and did not want to open up the manifold to just see. Unless the car is throwing a code nothing is going to happen. In any event, I have opened a case with Audi. The car still has a warranty and they still are honoring it.

Honestly, I can't seem them doing too much given all the direct injection motors they have out there. More pics to come shortly.

Audi will not take off the manifold even when CEL pops up. They go by a certain procedure. They will try everything they can without removing the IM and only when none of those methods work will they be forced to take it off to inspect. You did the best thing by removing yourself. It is good that you have the skill to do so.

Tim (silverrs4) has removed his IM plenty of times. He found that while driving in winter months there was no CB, only a very thin oily film not worth mentioning. Come summer time and hot temps there was carbon galore.

I will let him chime in with details as to why he believes this happens but everyone feel free to discuss. Maybe Audi did do their work on the fsi engine (for the most part).

[beemercer]

And if you actually pay more money for this design of the engine, then why does the Lexus direct injection engine not have this carbon build up issue?

The Toyota motors use a supplementary port fuel injector that cleans out the buildup.

And that carbon buildup is nasty, I didn't realize it seeps all the way through the gaskets on the head.

[UGwagen]

I guess, thankfully, my old 2005 B6 S4 doesn't have direct injection, or FSI. Isn't this a new (2008 and up?) "upgrade" to most engines, at least from the high end manufacturers like Audi, Porsche, Lexus, Infinity?, BMW, etc? And if you actually pay more money for this design of the engine, then why does the Lexus direct injection engine not have this carbon build up issue? I don't even see how the valves could work with this kind of soot caked onto them, and after so low miles.

What is it about the Audi design that will cause their bread and butter 2.0 FSI motors to stop operating efficiently after very low miles? This is for the standard A4's, A6's, A8's, TT's, etc. built after 2008?

In short, with direct injection, fuel is sprayed directly into the combustion chamber. Nothing is truly cleaning the intake valves from PCV gunk & blowby

You don't really see this issue as much with port injection because fuel is cleaning the valve & surrounding area.

VW does have a patent on oil additives, saying a ester-based additive can help keep it clean.

Fuel is another issue. You do get some blowby, so, there is a fuel additive quality side. Non-Top Tier gas uses cheap additives that clean AND contribute to additional deposits. Theoretically, using Top Tier gas, the residual unburnt fuel that is part of blowby can clean the valves also.

[FarmerBob]

Jalas, good luck working it out with Johan at Audi North America. If you send him high res pictures, like the ones above, he/Audi should pay you hush money so you send him the originals and burn all copies, and never post of speak of this again. This is just ridiculous. Those pictures look like they are of a 40 yr old Ford or Chevy motor that's been sitting in a barn for years w/out being started, and not a $80,000 high performance automobile that's only 2 yrs old, and with low miles.

[silverRS4]

Jeez Jose, thanks for posting the pics. At least I know what's coming. I just love scrubbing manifold ports during the holidays;) - I'll be ready for it.

The carbon build-up is a by-product of Direct-injection, plain and simple. Once the CB is present, nothing will get it off except manual cleaning with Seafoam or similar. I'd prefer to do it that way anyway. The BG-type fogs aren't very effective at all and anything they do get off the valves goes straight to the cats - not good.

[mattlqx]

This really shakes my confidence in Audi. It seems that they're patronizing everyone with this problem with the hopes that there isn't a complete engine failure prior to the warranty ending. Once it does, they're out of the woods. Though to be fair, I have heard of Audi doing covered engine work way out of warranty.

It seems from what I read here then that this is a fundamental problem with direct injection engines. Can anybody confirm that other makes have a similar issue? If these engines will fail eventually after 100k (relatively low milage), shouldn't we just revert the technology if a fix can't be found?

[spyder101]

This really shakes my confidence in Audi. It seems that they're patronizing everyone with this problem with the hopes that there isn't a complete engine failure prior to the warranty ending. Once it does, they're out of the woods. Though to be fair, I have heard of Audi doing covered engine work way out of warranty.

It seems from what I read here then that this is a fundamental problem with direct injection engines. Can anybody confirm that other makes have a similar issue? If these engines will fail eventually after 100k (relatively low milage), shouldn't we just revert the technology if a fix can't be found?

I understand your thinking...I've been working with Audi for over nine years now and when I first started, I thought they were just the greatest cars. Over the years it seems that they have been getting more complicated, over engineered and uglier looking. The respect that I used to have for them is pretty much gone. Now my intrest, passion and love for working on these cars just becomes a job to pay my bills and that's it.

[FarmerBob]

This is a manufacter's design defect, simple, and a manufacturer solution or fix should be done, even if it's out of warranty. If that means a visual inspection of the valves/manifold, taking it off, cleaning and then install of a system similar to Lexus, or a catch can, then it should be done for the protection of the consumer. Wouldn't a class action lawsuit by Audi owners using a FSI engine force some action by Audi - that's what it's designed to do.

Sad thing is if you didn't have time to spend on these forum boards, then you wouldn't know about excessive carbon build up after a year or so, due to a design defect. And if you bought your 2007 or 2008 FSI as a regular family car, and A4 or A6 for $45,000-60,000, then you wouldn't know that the poor gas mileage, engine seizing or valve getting stuck, wasn't your fault and that it should have been fixed via recall.

[2manytoys]

Wow, I thought mine was bad:

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=322587

Did you get any Pinging (Detonation) with yours? I put a scope down to the piston on mine and there us quite a bit of pitting (I'm not sure yet but one of the pistons may be badly damaged). How did you know it was CB?

The good news is, once you get it all back together, the increase in pulling power will be amazing!

Mal.

[UGwagen]

This really shakes my confidence in Audi. It seems that they're patronizing everyone with this problem with the hopes that there isn't a complete engine failure prior to the warranty ending. Once it does, they're out of the woods. Though to be fair, I have heard of Audi doing covered engine work way out of warranty.

It seems from what I read here then that this is a fundamental problem with direct injection engines. Can anybody confirm that other makes have a similar issue? If these engines will fail eventually after 100k (relatively low milage), shouldn't we just revert the technology if a fix can't be found?

other manufacturers with direct injection have this issue, from BMW's to Mazdaspeeds.

Supposedly on the new Taurus, with the direct injection motor, there is an additional filter that needs to be changed, which filters out the oil particles from the PCV.

Interestingly enough, while my parent's 93 Caravan, it doesn't have direct injection, but the PCV goes to the airbox, then a piece of foam filters the oil from the PCV, and whatever is left over, the air filter finishes the job.

[BARRY]

the RS4 has a complicated oil filteration system for the PCV system, but i guess it isn't good enough...

[UGwagen]

the RS4 has a complicated oil filteration system for the PCV system, but i guess it isn't good enough...

the complex 4-vortex system still ain't good enough.

[bryzf1]

I believe meth will only maintain cleanliness if the valves are already clean to begin with. I doubt it will help clean the caked up mess that the OP already has.
I plan on doing a valve cleaning once I take the IM off for the S/C install.. then add an oil catch can and meth injection. Should keep the entire system spotless.

I've got about 7k miles on my RS4... should I assume that I already have this build up and that if I did install meth that it wouldn't help me? I plan on getting an oil catch can installed very soon to keep it at bay as best as possible.

[jalas]

Jeez Jose, thanks for posting the pics. At least I know what's coming. I just love scrubbing manifold ports during the holidays;) - I'll be ready for it.

The carbon build-up is a by-product of Direct-injection, plain and simple. Once the CB is present, nothing will get it off except manual cleaning with Seafoam or similar. I'd prefer to do it that way anyway. The BG-type fogs aren't very effective at all and anything they do get off the valves goes straight to the cats - not good.

Headed to Fedex now!! Thanks Tim. I'm glad I have off the entire week or this would be a nightmare to do on a weekend and wrangling a 1 year old!
-José

[jalas]

Wow, I thought mine was bad:

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=322587

Did you get any Pinging (Detonation) with yours? I put a scope down to the piston on mine and there us quite a bit of pitting (I'm not sure yet but one of the pistons may be badly damaged). How did you know it was CB?

The good news is, once you get it all back together, the increase in pulling power will be amazing!

Mal.

Mal,

No pinging. At least I can honestly say I did not hear anything and I am familiar with the sound. I'll try to see if I can't get a scope down the chambers to see what is going on. The car runs and sounds fine.

I'm excited about getting it fixed up.

-José