B5: A4 vs. S4?

[trackstar]

Hey guys, new to the forum, long-time car guy, I've always been a fan of the B5 bodystyle, but afraid to pull the trigger because of the S4's bad rap for reliability.

I'm looking for an AWD car that won't be a DD, but needs to be reliable. Fun weekend car, occasional track time (roadcourse, not dragstrip). I want smooth, consistent power (no monster turbo lag) and fun to drive. So....will an A4 accomodate my needs, or do I need to spring for the S4?

Basically, can an A4 (maybe with a turbo upgrade) be fast, with a nice flat torque curve and no lag, such that paying extra for an S4 is not justified? I assume brakes/suspension are going to be upgraded whether A4 or S4, so that's probably a wash.

Thanks

[ColinAndrews]

B5 S4's take a special breed to maintain them. Most people just get frustrated with the maintenance and sell them. The long and short of it is B5 S4's are not a terribly reliable car. They aren't as bad as looking through a forum would suggest however. Most people don't post "Hey! My car has run like its supposed to for 40K miles" they post when they have a problem.

No lag is also impossible with a turbo setup. You can minimize it, but there will be some lag.

You have to decide how much power you want, how much upkeep you are willing to do, and how much you are willing to pay. Browsing the A4/S4 forums would be a better source of info the General Car Talk.

[Dynamite]

you can get s4 power out of the 1.8t A4, but you will have lag, with about 250awhp you should be spooled by about 3000rpm, there are dyno plots around in the A4 B5 forum of them and im sure there are in the s4 forum to (search). Yes they will both need susp. etc. I dont know what your budget is, but if it is flat toque you are after the b6 s4 has the v8, it might be worth looking into. or if you are real keen then the v8s fit into the b5 a4s. (its been done look in b5 a4 projects forum). My car is similar (or will be when im done buying parts lol). I chose the 1.8t because it is so much easier to work on and a little less front heavy, it was also cheaper to do the turbo upgrade than to by an s4. The other thing to remember is there is twice as much of most things on the s4 so when you upgrade something it costs a lot more than the a4. hope that helps, this has been talked about to grate length in the b5 a4 forum, so have a search in there you should find most of the info you are after.

[calvin1.8t]

if you dont want any lag, a B5 isnt for you unless you get a 2.8 and supercharge it. if its only going to be a weekend car an S4, even though has reliability shit, wouldnt be so ba if it breaks because its not your DD. another solution to the S4 lag problem, try one small turbo and one large turbo if thats possible. maybe a k04 and a gt28.

[armys4]

A b5 S4 with K04's can be a very reliable car, assuming you maintain it and warm it up and cool it down. With 400hp and no hugely noticable turbo lag(meaning you don't get old 911 turbo lag, but a smooth burst of power). When you start beating on your ride is when it breaks. Any car that you beat on after 80,000 miles is going to break, it is just a matter of time. Colin is right, you get horror stories on the forums, there are a lot of B5 S4's with 400whp that are reliable DD's.

[Kruat]

My S4 has been very reliable since that day I bought it, and that was over three years ago. I drive mine over 50 miles a day. It's all in how you treat it. Keep up with the maintenance and it'll be fine. Owning a S4, you just have to expect one day your Ko3's will blow, and you'll need to dump some money into it.
And to the guy who said you can get S4 power out of a A4, ya, maybe a Stg2 S4, but it would take a hell of alot of money to get a 1.8T to 500-600whp that some S4's are putting out now. And a lot of those guys are running stock blocks, or mildly tuned blocks, IE new crank or pistons. The amount of power that can be achieved out of the 2.7T is amazing.
I'm not trying to say that 1.8T's can't do it, its just not nearly as easy as in the 2.7T. Shit, with as little as 5G's, you can get 400whp in a 2.7T.

[juju4uofa]

I've got a B5 1.8T with a 28RS and although it's very easy to keep in it's power band, there is certainly lag. I achieve full boost (~21psi) around 3,600rpm and hold constant until 7,100rpm. So, although it's dead below 3,000rpm you've got over 3,000rpm worth of power band. It's making 300 awlb-ft and 300 awhp.

Many S4s had turbo failure due to improper oiling. However, it's highly unlikely that you would buy an S4 now with good turbos and the turbos then go bad. Either the turbos already went bad and were replaced with updated equipment or the specific car you're looking at didn't have the issue. Also, often times you can find S4s with blown turbos that are relatively cheap and make prime candidates for a k04 swap.

I wouldn't won't to misguide you but I think an '01.5 or '02 S4 with software and bolt-ons would be all you needed. The car would obviously need to be serviced more than a Honda but I don't believe you would acquire a long list of unreasonable repairs either. Turbo-lag would be minimal and you'd still make ~280awhp. Plus, if you ever desire, 400awhp can be easily obtained.

One downfall to consider is that the S4 weighs ~400lbs more than the A4.

[Dynamite]

to clarify I was not saying that a 600awhp a4 1.8t would be a good idea it would be cheaper and more reliable to do that in an s4 plus the turbo lag would be something terrible. It depends what you are after, im only after 250-300awhp (so that is about stage 1+ s4 power) so the 1.8t is good for me, if you are wanting a nice curve and 350+awhp i would go for the s4 any day. It really depends what you are after.

[biketsai]

Like juju said, having a 28 series turbo is more than enough power for your occasional weekend car/track car. Its nice when it only takes 45 minutes to pull the turbo out of an A4. The A4 has been very reliable to me and its pretty easy to track down problems.

[djwimbo]

From what I saw of the HTA28xx turbo on an A4, I wouldn't even mess with an S4.

I hate working on them, I hate people bragging about them, I hate the cliche that goes along with too many of their owners.

Walk light, but carry a big stick. I've been in a nicely tuned 1.8L A4(B5) that had the GT2871, and it was a great feel (pulled like a DOHC V8). If I wanted a daily without a ton of lag, that would be the car (if I wanted a B5 again).

Dollar for dollar, you'll get to where you want to be with the A4 more easily (IMHO).

[LampyB]

go for the A4, easier to maintain and you'll be able to get solid power with a turbo upgrade. you can work on the A4 on your own too. seems like every time the B5 S4 needs work, the engine needs to be pulled. it also has two of everything, and is going to suck up a ton of $ in the end. not a whole lot of styling difference on the body either, i say it isn't worth it.

[dbc112]

How much price difference are we talking in the original car purchase?

Are we talking 5k?

How much for turbo upgrades on both cars?


You should sit down and take a look at overall out of pocket.. I think you may be happier with the S4 starting with a v6 twin turbo vs a single 4...

How much does it cost to get a stock A4 up to S4 levels? More than just buying the S4?

How about suspension etc..


I had the b5 S4 and like it more than my B6... If you can actually find one unmolested and lower miles, I say go for it. But read up on any issues TBB, etc. Make sure everything is done prior.

[quattEUro]

another solution to the S4 lag problem, try one small turbo and one large turbo if thats possible. maybe a k04 and a gt28.

yea, ya cant really do that... its not a sequential setup

[Silver streak]

Your not just getting more power when you spring for an S4....
There is a reason I paid $20,000 more for my 01 S4 then a A4 when buying it new.
6 speed transmission, suspension,interior, ect.
I have been stage 3 for over 2 years, track it 2-4 times a year, runs like a champ.