Ch~k04 Boost creep

[lbs4]

i know there have been tests done on the chinease k04 turbos and they have been known to have boost creep. im not clear on that, whats that mean ecxatly? thanks

[imola]

"Boost creep occurs when the wastegate is physically unable to bypass enough exhaust around the turbine on the turbo."

[Dr. Jekyll]

Not enough exhaust gas can bypass the turbine wheel, so the turbo keeps boosting when the wastegate opens. This means your boost pressure keeps increasing. Not the worst thing in the world if your fueling can handle it and you're tuned for it. But if you run them in stage 3- mode (stock fueling) you're going to be boosting WAY too much for the stock fuel system. So you risk blowing your engine.

If you have stage 3 fueling you're going to need a tune which tapers n75 duty cycle accordingly or else you're going to over boost. I think Tony@EPL was getting high teens low twenties PSI at 0% N75 DC. The boost PSI isn't a problem if you have the proper fueling but an off the shelf stage 3 tune will likely have issues.

[Audi S4 Turbo]

Can't a BW k04 boost creep also? Assuming you're running N75 only.

[Dr. Jekyll]

Can't a BW k04 boost creep also? Assuming you're running N75 only.

No. And N75/MBC/EBC is completely irrelevant. Boost creep is a function of the turbo, not the method of controlling the wastegate. Boost creep is caused by the wastegate being too small. So even if the wastegate is open (being kept open by an N75/MBC/EBC), the boost will still increase.

You're thinking of a boost spike. Boost spikes are caused by improper (or proper if you actually want a spike) wastegate control. If you're talking about an N75 only, then it's the tune causing the boost spike.

[lbs4]

thats good to know, i thaught i read something about someone controlling it thro a tune but i couldnt remember who.

[NOTORIOUS VR]

There is some tuner that is running a set of CK04's on a car and they had to retune the tables for the N75 to cope with the boost creep.

[GarbatyA4]

I hope all of you buy chinese turbos, then BW's go down in price then I can afford a real turbo. :)

[Dr. Jekyll]

thats good to know, i thaught i read something about someone controlling it thro a tune but i couldnt remember who.

You can't control boost creep, that's the problem. You need a tune and fueling to *deal* with it so you don't blow your engine. Tuning around boost creep is not ideal by any means but you can work around it if you have to. Your best bet, save a bit longer and buy turbos that have a properly sized wastegate port. Or maybe the manufacturer will eventually fix the issues with the CK04's.

[NOTORIOUS VR]

Here are pics I took of an original K03 turbo wastegate port:



And now the CK04.. notice how much smaller and sharper it is. This difference in real life is much more as well.. sorry for the crappy pics...

[lbs4]

well i had a set of k04s they blew up due to poor instalation by the mechanic, it was very costly. i put all i had into it and i got stuckwith my bad k03s so i had them turned into hybrids. ive been dealing with a company in ohio they have been paid now for those, that was $1000, and supposably 2 different sets that were supposed to come to me have been lost and now the company isnt answering there phone. so i got screwed and am looking into my options yet again. ive had very bad luck

[skele4door]

I'm guessing a few minutes with a die grinder would probably clear up the problem.

[NOTORIOUS VR]

I'm guessing a few minutes with a die grinder would probably clear up the problem.

I thought so too... but I don't think it's that simple.. there's a lot of material that has to be removed to make it like the BW turbos.

[Matador]

Usually porting out the wastegate hole to the maximum diameter achievable while still being covered by the wastegate flapper will alleviate boost creep. Best to just plan to do it before the install rather than finding you have a problem later.

[Doug@FrankenTurbo]

Usually porting out the wastegate hole to the maximum diameter achievable while still being covered by the wastegate flapper will alleviate boost creep. Best to just plan to do it before the install rather than finding you have a problem later.

Even easier: back off the adjustment screws on the wastegate rod. This will mean the flap will open more, allowing better flow. Stock configuration has it opening only about 20 degrees so there's a lot of room for improvement.

[skele4door]

If you do that you'll need to make sure it still has enough tension on it so that it's not blown open prematurely.

[Caddy7]

well i had a set of k04s they blew up due to poor instalation by the mechanic, it was very costly. i put all i had into it and i got stuckwith my bad k03s so i had them turned into hybrids. ive been dealing with a company in ohio they have been paid now for those, that was $1000, and supposably 2 different sets that were supposed to come to me have been lost and now the company isnt answering there phone. so i got screwed and am looking into my options yet again. ive had very bad luck

You probably know but, you can rebuild your blown K04's at home if you buy pre-balanced CHRA's, should run you less then $1k

[Evilevo]

Even easier: back off the adjustment screws on the wastegate rod. This will mean the flap will open more, allowing better flow. Stock configuration has it opening only about 20 degrees so there's a lot of room for improvement.

If the wastegate hole physically isnt large enough to flow enough air to keep the turbo from boost creeping, it doesnt matter how much you open the flap.

[eliTTe]

what if you switched to external wastegates?

[Evilevo]

what if you switched to external wastegates?

Why the fuck would you run external Wastegates on K04s? That defeats the purpose. You would need all new manifolds to do that, along with either welding the WG hole shut, or get different turbine housings.

[eliTTe]

That defeats the purpose.

defeats what purpose?

You would need all new manifolds to do that, along with either welding the WG hole shut

and?

[Evilevo]

That defeats the purpose.

defeats what purpose?

You would need all new manifolds to do that, along with either welding the WG hole shut

and?

Of having an easy bolt on turbo for stage 3 cars.

Again, same response. Not many people change the manifolds for K04s. Most of the Aftermarket K04 manifolds crack and they dont show much gains. So it is wasted money

[eliTTe]

Of having an easy bolt on turbo for stage 3 cars.

Again, same response. Not many people change the manifolds for K04s. Most of the Aftermarket K04 manifolds crack and they dont show much gains. So it is wasted money

well obviously its not bolt on, but everyone was talking about eliminating boost creep on CK04's and external WG's would do that.

[Evilevo]

well obviously its not bolt on, but everyone was talking about eliminating boost creep on CK04's and external WG's would do that.

At that point, you would be spending the same if not more as BW K04s. So therefor, do it once and do it right.

[eliTTe]

At that point, you would be spending the same if not more as BW K04s. So therefor, do it once and do it right.

wrongo! just priced it, CK04's + manifolds + turbonetics external WG's = about $1600... so unless youre going to pay someone $1000 to do the welding then it is a good bit less than BW K04's

[NOTORIOUS VR]

wrongo! just priced it, CK04's + manifolds + turbonetics external WG's = about $1600... so unless youre going to pay someone $1000 to do the welding then it is a good bit less than BW K04's

I came up to $1824 for CK04's ($799+80 shipping) + Manis ($300+25 shipping) + 2 New turbonetic WG's @ $310/ea (free ship)

How much do you expect to pay someone to weld on external WG's, fab dump piping (screamer or rerouted) for the WG + material?? Seeing as you can get BW K04's for $2300 shipped.

You're going to be paying more, for turbo's that might not last hanging on manifolds that will probably crack even sooner now because you're hanging external wastegaste off it.

[Evilevo]

I came up to $1824 for CK04's ($799+80 shipping) + Manis ($300+25 shipping) + 2 New turbonetic WG's @ $310/ea (free ship)

How much do you expect to pay someone to weld on external WG's, fab dump piping (screamer or rerouted) for the WG + material?? Seeing as you can get BW K04's for $2300 shipped.

You're going to be paying more, for turbo's that might not last hanging on manifolds that will probably crack even sooner now because you're hanging external wastegaste off it.

Thank you! I was too lazy to go and find prices for everything.

[revhards4]

I feel bad for people that just don't or can't do it right the first time and want to cheap out on the parts...then in turn they end up spending more in the long run to make their cheap parts work. I used to do it back in the day when I was a kid and didn't make a lot of money to go for the real deal products...I quickly learned to just be patient and it's better in the long run to just save and buy genuine parts.

[bigern45]

I feel bad for people that just don't or can't do it right the first time and want to cheap out on the parts...then in turn they end up spending more in the long run to make their cheap parts work. I used to do it back in the day when I was a kid and didn't make a lot of money to go for the real deal products...I quickly learned to just be patient and it's better in the long run to just save and buy genuine parts.

whew.. i know.. 1600 bucks?? thats all you wanna spend on your turbos, manis and wastegates?..

[eliTTe]

I came up to $1824 for CK04's ($799+80 shipping) + Manis ($300+25 shipping) + 2 New turbonetic WG's @ $310/ea (free ship)

How much do you expect to pay someone to weld on external WG's, fab dump piping (screamer or rerouted) for the WG + material?? Seeing as you can get BW K04's for $2300 shipped.

You're going to be paying more, for turbo's that might not last hanging on manifolds that will probably crack even sooner now because you're hanging external wastegaste off it.

that price on whe WG's are what I saw but I saw the Ck04's and manifolds cheaper than that... (total of $1600)

and lets not get it twisted guys... did I say this was better than going with BW K04's?... NO... I said it was cheaper and would solve the boost creep of CK04's. because I do believe the topic was "CK04 boost creep" not "which are better Ck04's of BW K04's?"

[shorterthanrich]

Do it once and do it right. If you need new manis and have to pay someone to custom weld...it's just not going to be worth it...

[Matador]

Yeah, honestly with such an important part of the car I don't think the "fake it till you make it" mantra is a good practice.

[NOTORIOUS VR]

that price on whe WG's are what I saw but I saw the Ck04's and manifolds cheaper than that... (total of $1600)

and lets not get it twisted guys... did I say this was better than going with BW K04's?... NO... I said it was cheaper and would solve the boost creep of CK04's. because I do believe the topic was "CK04 boost creep" not "which are better Ck04's of BW K04's?"

So you solve the boost creep (which honestly when dealing with CK04 turbos and Ebay mani's is the LEAST thing you need to worry about) but what about the other problems?

[eliTTe]

So you solve the boost creep (which honestly when dealing with CK04 turbos and Ebay mani's is the LEAST thing you need to worry about) but what about the other problems?

there crappy turbos that is the problem. I can't really tell you how to fix garbage... sorry.

[NOTORIOUS VR]

there crappy turbos that is the problem. I can't really tell you how to fix garbage... sorry.

haha... that's one problem... what about the crappy OBX mani's?

[Matador]

there crappy turbos that is the problem. I can't really tell you how to fix garbage... sorry.

[sCeRaXn]

Getting rid of the creep on these or any turbos is easy with a little time and patience. Porting the wg hole and making the arm open a little more is usually all it takes and isnt nearly as hard as most people make it out to be. The trick is to increase the flow TO the port instead of just hogging out the hole(sorta like porting a head). I usually only end up taking out a few mm from the port itself(where the puck sits). Ive done this to a bunch of turbos with great success. With the srt turbos i used to port i would open the wg hole a little bit and put the wg arm and puck from a Greddy CRZ/20g turbo on there. Not only did it eliminate creep but it also allowed the turbo to hold 2-3psi more at redline vs the stocker.

Id love the get ahold of a pair of CK04 exhaust housings to see exactly how bad it is and what it would take to make it flow better. From the pics That Notorious VR posted up it looks like itd be a relatively easy job(compared to some other internally gated turbos ive done). Not only that, but it looks like you could also greatly increase the flow to both the wg hole and exhaust outlet while youre in there.

Notorious VR-Is that a little "lip" on the radius going to the wg port on ck04? It looks like it in those pics but its sorta hard to tell.

[NOTORIOUS VR]

Notorious VR-Is that a little "lip" on the radius going to the wg port on ck04? It looks like it in those pics but its sorta hard to tell.

yes it's going to the WG port.

Thing is you can't really see it, but the K03's have a larger diameter, shallow hole just on top of the larger wastegate port hole, as to feed the exhaust gases into the wastegate port.

You can certainly make the CK04's better then they are, but it's not going to be easy to make them as good as the BW turbos. It will take you a lot of time to do so.

[kward12]

You probably know but, you can rebuild your blown K04's at home if you buy pre-balanced CHRA's, should run you less then $1k

is a rebuilt k04 close to as reliable as a new one? sorry for the noob question, im just trying to build my turbo knowledge and ive never known anyone who ran rebuilt turbos.

[sCeRaXn]

If the rebuilt chra is good then you wont have any problems. Thats if your old turbos didnt mess up either of the housings when they blew. If so then youd be better off buying new ones. If either of the wheels are damaged then most likely the housings are damaged as well, but the easiest way to find out is to simply unbolt the housings from the chra and check them out.