how to realign camshaft and crankshaft???

[mike's machine]

i think my timing belt got loose, camshaft jumped a tooth or so...
does anyone know how to realign camshaft and crankshaft???
i did search, and couldn't really find much info...

[Daft]

Do you have everything apart already or is the car currently assembled?

Ideally, you would want to mark the crank sprocket while the car is at TDC and then pull the belt and tensioner off.

If you already removed everything, you would want to get the cam sprockets lined up with each other and then make sure that the crank sprocket is at TDC.

If you already have everything apart, you might need to locate the hole in the block for the TDC pin and turn the crank slowly by hand to get it back to TDC. Otherwise, you could try placing the plastic cover and the crank pulley back on and see where the pulley markings are showing the position to be.

Just be careful to not force anything is you feel any real resistance. There will be some resistance as you reach the compression stroke but, it will be brief an it will pass. You don't want to feel a click and then solid resistance, that would indicate a piston touching a valve.

[mike's machine]

arg...sounds complicated...i've never done timing belt or anything w/cam/crank shafts...i'm a little scared to do this since there's not even much diy's around...
and no, it's not apart yet, but since it seems camshaft and crankshaft are not alinged correctly, it wouldn't be matter...
i've seen camlock tool, it's different than camlock bar...it was actually holding two camshaft together with the head cover removed...
do you know anything like that?

[Siricospeed]

If cam timing changed 1 tooth, you will need a new motor. Valves bend! Pull the upper timing belt covers and line up the holes on the cams straight across to the other side. Use a yard stick to eyeball them. If they have moved, replace the engine.

See attached image of what happens when the belt skips!

[Deep6ed]

Ouch, yeah, thats what happens if they get misaligned. If you're not sure about if they are correct, you can manually crank the engine with the belt on, and listen for metal hitting metal, or any increased resistance in the crank motion. If the shafts are misaligned, the valves will actually impact the piston heads and destroy them because Audis have interference engines.

[mike's machine]

Xhit...
when i crank the engine, it cranks, slows down then crank and slow down...
so...i'm assuming there's resistance more than it should be at some point...so...
above picture could be what happened...?
should I take it apart and look...?
is there any other way than just getting a whole engine?
cause it didn't happend while running, it was parked, i tried to turn it on, and it wouldn't.

[Deep6ed]

If when you crank it, nothing physically stops it from turning (aka you're crushing a valve just to do it) they are in the correct config. If you hear a "tink" or anything, that means you're hitting a valve = no good. If it just didn't start, and you didnt move the cam or crank when you pulled the belt off, they should still be in the correct place.

Make sure you can fully crank the engine a few times. If you pull the plugs, you should be able to see the piston come up and go back down again.

People say if you hose up the valves to just get a new engine, because it's cheaper than paying someone to replace/refurb the heads, cylinder walls, and pistons or whatever else got damaged. If you're doing it yourself however, doing the work will be cheaper than a new engine.

[mike's machine]

if this helps any for better understanding...

[Deep6ed]

Okay, first of all, you dont even have the car apart, you're just trying to start it.

All the advice given was about manually cranking the engine over, not using the key to do it. That involves disassembling the front of the car to the point where you can actually see the timing belt. And using a socket wrench to turn the engine over.

If there was something wrong with your alignment, doing what you were doing in the video is the worst thing you could possibly do. There's no way you could stop the engine from destroying the valves if something was off with your alignment if the engine turned over.

First of all, how many miles are on your car? Was the timing belt changed?

That sounds more like a starter issue. Did you check your battery voltage?

If you don't have any technical experience, dont just assume its the timing belt. Get someone who knows what they're doing, and have them help you out.

A good first step may be to slow down, and get someone to VAG-Com your car to read the error codes.

[mike's machine]

hmm...i'll start taking apart then, but i didn't want to do that till i get the parts...
battery's holding more than 12v, and starter is turning fine.
and can't even scan for CEL right now cause it won't even start.
i just cleared the code i had before, and it won't give new cel cause it's not starting.
the code i had before was camshaft position sensor, and misfire on cylinder 1,2,&3.
i replaced the camshaft position sensor, and did not do anything.
my ignition output modules are fine, it's not plugs, it's not coils.
all rescent.
and timing belt was done less than around 50K miles.
but a body have changed my power steering pump about 6 months ago.
i undid the serpentine belt while i was replacing motor mount, but did not even touch the timing belt.
so...just take it a part and turn it manually first?

[Deep6ed]

I highly doubt you skipped a tooth on your tb. I would scan the car before pulling anything apart, even if you dont think there will be any messages. It's rare to skip a tooth on a TB, and you'd know for sure (grinding/death destruction) if it did, and it certainly doesnt happen while the car is sitting still. I think you have another issue, so I would direct you towards pulling codes rather than the front end.

*edit: you can scan without the engine running

[seanriv]

1 tooth off with NOT hurt anything, just run like shit.

[mike's machine]

yea had misfires, but it ran...but now it won't even start...so i'm worried if it skipped even more...(if it is the prob)
anyway, i can not get any new CEL since I cleared the codes last time which were camshaft position sensor and mistires.

[V8weight]

yea had misfires, but it ran...but now it won't even start...so i'm worried if it skipped even more...(if it is the prob)
anyway, i can not get any new CEL since I cleared the codes last time which were camshaft position sensor and mistires.

Your car is loaded up with fuel due to the previous misfires, I would suspect your catalysts are possibly melted as well. That's what the sluggish cranking sounded like to me. How long was your car driven while misfiring? How long has it been sitting?

[mike's machine]

had the misfires for a few days, and it's been sitting also for a few days.
so you are saying it's prob with catalyc converters?

[G Men 08]

yeah sounds like something with fuel.. either not enough or too much.. any CEL's?

[mike's machine]

no CEL ever since I cleared the previous codes...
so it has symptoms of jumped timing belt AND melted cats...?

[mike's machine]

I've done some diagnosis work on it.
All plugs came out wet, and getting no spark in all six plugs.
Did compression pressure check just in case, passenger side 3 holds about 100psi, but 2 of driver side holds about 75psi, and one holds more than 125 psi.
I don't know why there's that much difference if someone can explain...
Serpentine belts is off, I tried to turn the crankshaft with hands, but there was no way I can turn only by hands.
I'll need a bigger socket to do turn it...which I'll get it tomorrow...
So I'm guessing all the valves are fine since all cylinders holds pressure.
So if it's only the camshaft/crankshaft misalignment issue, how do you know, and how do you re-align it...
Do I need these tools?
Camshaft alignment tool
Camshaft locking tool(different than locking bar, actually holds camshafts)

[Asicks]

You might look into your Ignition Control Module.

I just had to replace mine....easy job, exspensive part...$280.

here is what happened to me.

Stopped for fuel. Car was running fine. Came out after paying started vehicle and it was miss-firing bad.....shook the whole car (i do have aftermarket motor mounts which probably amplified the vibration).

Honestly, it was missfiring so bad i though i had lost a cylinder or two & luckily i was 3 blocks from my mechanic.

To tie in with your issue....i did have some random missfires before this that could have been related to the Ignition Control Module.

I did not try it...but my mechanic told me that tapping the ICM might temporarliy bring it back to life.

The ICM is located on top of the Airbox. The are two rectangle blocks with wires going to them....they are about 1"x2". I will pop my hood over lunch to see which one was replaced.

[mike's machine]

My ignition output module should be fine.
One's been replaced recently, the other was working fine.
i switched them and made no difference.

[mike's machine]

I just aligned the crank pulley with the arrow.
Driverside camshaft pulley is fairly horizontal, but passangerside camshaft pulley isn't.
Would that be problem?
The previous code was saying misfire on cylinder 1,2,and 3, aren't they driver side?
And how do you take the fan out?

[Daft]

I just aligned the crank pulley with the arrow.
Driverside camshaft pulley is fairly horizontal, but passangerside camshaft pulley isn't.
Would that be problem?
The previous code was saying misfire on cylinder 1,2,and 3, aren't they driver side?
And how do you take the fan out?

Can you get a better pic of the crank pulley & the timing cover's TDC mark?

I can't see it.

If it really is lined up, that passenger side cam looks off.

Bank 1 is where Cylinders 1-3 are located. Bank 1 is the passenger side of the engine. The cause seems to definitely point to the cam timing. Once you get everything lined up properly, a compression test is definitely in order. We want to see those compression readings back in the 130<->188Psi range.

Just for informational purposes:

2.7T APB & BEL motor compression specs:

Allowable compression range: 130 to 188.5 Psi

Wear limit: 101.5 Psi.

Max allowable difference between cylinders: 43.5 Psi.

NOTE: make sure to remove the fuel pump fuse during testing and hold the throttle at WOT while cranking. Don't stop cranking until the needle stops increasing.

The viscous fan must be counter held and then unscrewed via the large nut on the backside. It is a reverse threaded nut! Loosen by turning to the right.

[A62TURBO]

Can you get a better pic of the crank pulley & the timing cover's TDC mark?

I can't see it.

If it really is lined up, that passenger side cam looks off.

Bank 1 is where Cylinders 1-3 are located. Bank 1 is the passenger side of the engine. The cause seems to definitely point to the cam timing. Once you get everything lined up properly, a compression test is definitely in order. We want to see those compression readings back in the 130<->188Psi range.

Just for informational purposes:

2.7T APB & BEL motor compression specs:

Allowable compression range: 130 to 188.5 Psi

Wear limit: 101.5 Psi.

Max allowable difference between cylinders: 43.5 Psi.

NOTE: make sure to remove the fuel pump fuse during testing and hold the throttle at WOT while cranking. Don't stop cranking until the needle stops increasing.

The viscous fan must be counter held and then unscrewed via the large nut on the backside. It is a reverse threaded nut! Loosen by turning to the right.

Daft, where do you get all of this info, you're a human Google search lol

[mike's machine]

Thank you so much for the info.
I have question about how to align it properly.
So once crankshaft is aligned and pinned, and if the other camshaft is horizontal, can I just 'turn' the other camshaft pulley to make it align with the other, then use the locking bar?
Or is there special way to do it?
And I replaced the camshaft position sensor on driverside, should I switch it with passanger side or should it be fine since the problem is the camshaft actually being off, not the sensor?

[Siricospeed]

Mike,
Great job! Now you are getting somewhere. If you pin the crank, you can put the bar in the driver's side and twist the passenger side to go in once you have slackened the timing belt. With any luck you got away with it. Be sure to replace all of the timing components and thermostat and water pump while you are there.

Keep us posted.

[mike's machine]

Yea, that's what I was wondering, if I can just turn the camshaft pulley to line up with the other.
Thanks for the answer!

[Tiluleshpingen]

Daft, where do you get all of this info, you're a human Google search lol

SO give the man some rep points, this is how we all should help each other!!

[Tiluleshpingen]

Yea, that's what I was wondering, if I can just turn the camshaft pulley to line up with the other.
Thanks for the answer!

did u get ur issue resolved?

[mike's machine]

Waiting for camlocking bar :)
how do you give rep point?

one more Q.
what else should I replace while I have excess?
intercooler hoses?

[Tiluleshpingen]

water pump, tensioner, Rollers,belt

[Nickle]

Waiting for camlocking bar :)
how do you give rep point?

one more Q.
what else should I replace while I have excess?
intercooler hoses?

Tensioner roller and idler roller are also good items to replace. If you want to go super anal on the project you could also replace the hydraulic tensioner and cam seals. That would ensure that the front end won't have to come off for awhile.

Also, I would start at step E6 here. With the timing belt off, I would align the cams with the lock bar, then release the pulleys from the cams, just like the Bentley manual says. I'd also clean the area where the cams and cam pulley make contact. I'm going to guess that the cam pulley bolts were out of torque spec and/or the contact area between the cam and pulley is damaged. FYI, the correct spec on the cam pulley bolts is 55 Nm (40 ft-lb). Good luck.

[mike's machine]

I got the whole kit, not cam seals...if you take the pulley out, how do you keep the camshaft in place???

[Tiluleshpingen]

camshaft seals are anal.. you have to take the sprocket out .. send it to a shop to do that.
But i would do that now.

[Nickle]

I got the whole kit, not cam seals...if you take the pulley out, how do you keep the camshaft in place???

As long as the ears on the camshaft are horizontal, they'll stay in place relatively well. When using a two-arm puller on the pulleys to break them free of the cam, it's easy to accidentally turn the cam and pulley. You'll know it if you do turn it a few degree because it will then quickly snap over ~45 deg. You really want to avoid having this happen, but when it happened to me, it didn't hurt anything in the engine... only my knuckles. However, breaking the pulleys free from the cams really is the right way to do this job. Plus, in your case, it appears as if the pulley has already rotated in relation to the camshaft, NOT that the timing belt has skipped a tooth. Well, maybe it has, but it seems more likely to me that the pulley turned in relation to the camshaft. Anyway, based on your circumstances, it's really in you best interests to break the pulley free from the camshaft so it can rotate on the camshaft and reset it as instructed by the Bentley manual and the red text in the link I gave you.

[mike's machine]

So if it is the pulley turned, there's no point aligning the pulley with camlocking bar and replace the timing belt and accessories, right?
How can i double check the cams are in right position???

[A62TURBO]

Well from this picture it seems like the left cam is off, I'm not sure but if you line up the cams to fit the Cam locking bar you might be alright. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

[mike's machine]

wait...if pulley turned, the pulley itself should look aligned.
so the pulley definitely jumped even thought there still is possibility it also has turned too.

[A62TURBO]

Honestly I don't know what happened, all I know is that from the picture above it seems like the cam locking bar would not line up to your cams due to the left side being off by a little. Now how it must have happened I have no clue, all I know is that if you realign that left cam so that the cam locking bar can fit you might be OK. I'm just using some common sense, if I'm wrong someone tell me. Look at the picture of the Cam Locking Bar, you see how the ears on each cam should line up horizontally.

[Nickle]

wait...if pulley turned, the pulley itself should look aligned.
so the pulley definitely jumped even thought there still is possibility it also has turned too.

Not necessarily. There is no "right" orientation for the pulleys, so to speak. I think you guys are assuming the interface between the pulley and cam is splined or has a key way or something, but that's not the case. The face on the inside of the pulley is smooth, just as the cam is. The whole setup is a conical interface. The cam bolts apply enough force against the front of the the pulley, pushing it further onto the coned cam, that there is no slippage between the two. (note: description of the interface pulled from memory.) If a cam bolt is loose, there is no safety net for the pulley not to turn (i.e. splines or a keyway), that sucker will turn independent of the cam. That's what I think happened in your case, Mike's Machine, but you won't know for sure until you get everything back to spec after removing the pulleys from the cams and giving it a good look over.

The wings on the cam is how you align the cam, not the pulleys. The wings fit on the cams in only one orientation, whereas the pulleys are free to turn independent of the cams. These are the steps you need to take to get the wings to line up correctly:
1) Put the crank at TDC
2) Align the wings on the cams so they are horizontal with the big holes are on the inside (or so bank 1 is close to horizontal)
3) Put the cam lock bar onto the bank 1 wings, hold it there, and detention the timing belt. This is so the bank 1 cam won't snap into the wrong position once the belt is removed. When the cam is in the correct orientation, like bank 2 should be at this point, it's fairly stable and will rest there on its own. However, your bank 1 cam is far enough off from horizontal that once you detention the timing belt, it will snap over to the wrong position and will so fairly violently. Use the cam lock bar to secure the bank 1 cam in place while you detension the timing belt.
4) Remove the timing belt
5) Use the cam lock bar to realign the bank 1 cam to horizontal.
6) Lock both cams in place and pickup at step E6 in the DIY I linked you to.
7) Take a deep breath. At this point you'll be saying "that wasn't so bad. That guy on the internetz made it out to be worse than it was." Look, if you removed the front end of the car without too much struggle, doing a realign won't be much of a challenge for ya. IMO, the clips that hold the hoses onto the radiator are more of a challenge than realigning the cams.

[mike's machine]

so it's the wings that matters???
i thought the wing is attached like the pulley so it doesn't actually do anything if it actually slips...
this is the answer i've been waiting to hear!!!
so i don't have to take the head apart to align the cam shaft, just need to align the wings.
man, that sounds a lot easy and i AM relieved, now.
i'm just waiting for the cam locking bar right now, and that will be the last thing i'll need, right???
thanks again for the answer!