B6/B7 motor 101 tear-down every piece exposed/monday up date

[serumk]

Engine coolant mixing with the oil, methinks? : (

[SuperAvant]

Engine coolant mixing with the oil, methinks? : (

Yup thats my guess. That is what it would look like. What was the year of this car? I know there was a design flaw in early blocks that caused coolant to leak into the crankcase. I cant believe Audi didnt discover this just by seeing the color of the oil when the oil was changed. Didnt they think it was a bent valve?

[serumk]

Yup thats my guess. That is what it would look like. What was the year of this car? I know there was a design flaw in early blocks that caused coolant to leak into the crankcase. I cant believe Audi didnt discover this just by seeing the color of the oil when the oil was changed. Didnt they think it was a bent valve?

You'd almost wonder, with the incredible quantity of oil in these engines, if it was even possible to see a color change when changing the oil. It's interesting to note that you can pull the oil pan and take a look for this, I think.

[bsrpilot44]

mmmmm a messy motor

[jfunkey]

He mentioned in the last paragraph that the stuff in the oil pan was from the head and they were smashed up bits.

So at this time I'm not going to go more into what went wrong But I will say there was a failure in the cylinder head. Keep in mind tho. The motor still ran and drove. The pieces in the oil pan have been smashed and ground down after floating around before ending up here...Don't be too upset I really started digging into the cylinder heads and there is lots to see when we get to that point

.

[serumk]

He didn't say it was exclusively mashed up bits, though. Input, Justin? = )

[jfunkey]

He didn't say it was exclusively mashed up bits, though. Input, Justin? = )

Thats true.From the pix and the post thats what I gathered

[serumk]

Thats true.From the pix and the post thats what I gathered

Seems like a reasonable possibility.

[beemercer]

Yeah I think the silvery froth is ground up aluminum.

[serumk]

Yeah I think the silvery froth is ground up aluminum.

Mmmmm - gritty!

[B6guy42]

Justin i owe you money for doing this. I really wanted to see the bare block. What an over engineered car. Too much for my liking. Ehhh well I can at least see that thank god we DO have a filter for the oil pump considering that glimmering oil you have there. Usually the metallic flakes never make way to the inside of the motor. This is the most fantastic view I have seen to date.

[Justincredible]

Thanks bud. :)

More to come. NEXT week is the start of the big power connection pieces and the debate will with any luck, be put to rest.

For you guys that are wondering. The pieces in the oil pan were parts of the failed Cylinder head piece. Now don't get too far ahead of this as I will go into FULL detail on the heads and ALL the pieces. But that is small aluminum bits that were almost ground to a fine powder

[beemercer]

Thanks bud. :)

More to come. NEXT week is the start of the big power connection pieces and the debate will with any luck, be put to rest.

For you guys that are wondering. The pieces in the oil pan were parts of the failed Cylinder head piece. Now don't get too far ahead of this as I will go into FULL detail on the heads and ALL the pieces. But that is small aluminum bits that were almost ground to a fine powder

That sounds as healthy as the herpe-gonna-syphil-aids

[serumk]

lol, nice.

[ZachPDX]

ahhhhhhhhchewwww..... o... sry

[Justincredible]

Sorry, I was just going to make a post about this.

After reading what I would consider, just a complete irresponsible amount of bad info some people are trying to push as fact on the strength of the block, rods, and motor parts. I have been taking a few extra days gathering FACTS So we can all know what we really have and are working with.

I was sent a link by a very nice fella I helped with a RS4 and just saw what I would consider udder ignorance passed off as good info or fact. So I'm taking the next few days to get us As much info as I can gather to help fort off the B.S. some people are spewing just so they can say they said something.

The next few weeks of info and facts are going to help point us in the proper direction, so it stands that it should be well founded to fort off any of the miss information that has been luckily not passed over here.

On my own dime, I'm sending parts to get tested and waiting for responses from company's that can give us real incite information and feed back. Gathering a larger amount of examples to help support the info and help clear the air.

Thanks guys, sorry if there were not such a large amount of just complete B.S. out there with completely unfounded and unfactual opinions that I believe need to be silenced I would be moving forward quicker. But the only way to stop misinformation is with REAL information so. please be patient. LOTS MORE IS COMMING

[brad65ford]

Sorry, I was just going to make a post about this.

After reading what I would consider, just a complete irresponsible amount of bad info some people are trying to push as fact on the strength of the block, rods, and motor parts. I have been taking a few extra days gathering FACTS So we can all know what we really have and are working with.

I was sent a link by a very nice fella I helped with a RS4 and just saw what I would consider udder ignorance passed off as good info or fact. So I'm taking the next few days to get us As much info as I can gather to help fort off the B.S. some people are spewing just so they can say they said something.

The next few weeks of info and facts are going to help point us in the proper direction, so it stands that it should be well founded to fort off any of the miss information that has been luckily not passed over here.

On my own dime, I'm sending parts to get tested and waiting for responses from company's that can give us real incite information and feed back. Gathering a larger amount of examples to help support the info and help clear the air.

Thanks guys, sorry if there were not such a large amount of just complete B.S. out there with completely unfounded and unfactual opinions that I believe need to be silenced I would be moving forward quicker. But the only way to stop misinformation is with REAL information so. please be patient. LOTS MORE IS COMMING

that makes alot of sense, better to wait and figure more things out than assume.

[serumk]

Sorry, I was just going to make a post about this.

After reading what I would consider, just a complete irresponsible amount of bad info some people are trying to push as fact on the strength of the block, rods, and motor parts. I have been taking a few extra days gathering FACTS So we can all know what we really have and are working with.

I was sent a link by a very nice fella I helped with a RS4 and just saw what I would consider udder ignorance passed off as good info or fact. So I'm taking the next few days to get us As much info as I can gather to help fort off the B.S. some people are spewing just so they can say they said something.

The next few weeks of info and facts are going to help point us in the proper direction, so it stands that it should be well founded to fort off any of the miss information that has been luckily not passed over here.

On my own dime, I'm sending parts to get tested and waiting for responses from company's that can give us real incite information and feed back. Gathering a larger amount of examples to help support the info and help clear the air.

Thanks guys, sorry if there were not such a large amount of just complete B.S. out there with completely unfounded and unfactual opinions that I believe need to be silenced I would be moving forward quicker. But the only way to stop misinformation is with REAL information so. please be patient. LOTS MORE IS COMMING

You are a scholar and a gentleman. Thanks for all you do.

[TayTay]

yes thank you for doing this. After you complete this i think you will have done so much for the aftermarket community. Coming from cars like the 350z and the s2000 all the mods and research have been already done. Not the case for the s4 things are just beginning to happen for the b6 and b7 v8. I am very excited to see what lays in the future for this car.

[Justincredible]

This week has lots of reading and info. LONG read but good. Take some time go to the bathroom and grab something to drink. We are getting out good info and setting the record straight, about our blocks and there strength

So with a week off were back at it. Now with myth busting power.

Before I start let me address some of the issues that seem to be passed around as fact and are in FACT, bull Fuking $h1T.

Ive been shown posts where people with no advanced knowledge of the motor, are telling people that we have to worry and that our motors are built to the max from the factory.

Lets get this out of the way. Anyone that says that is clueless, as a automotive standard most manufactures test parts and run them at 60 to 70 % calculated max limit. NO manufacture runs or builds parts to work to XXX power but they have tested limits that each part is to be able to function under and surpass.

I read a direct memo from ford engineers (actual memo not word of mouth) about the minimum load rating that a (ford) fiesta must be able to clear in all components motor, chassis, trans and the list went on. Bottom line the car requirements are well above what calculated MAX (calculated by the engineers) could ever reach. This is I know a ford but its not a sport car and its not an Audi, not only that its not a S model Audi.

Although keep in mind ford (as well as all the other automakers) do what is called competitive vehicle testing. Companies buy other car makers cars and tear them apart, to get new ideas and see what the competition is doing. From what I was told, Audi goes beyond what there Hp #'s are in the structure and strength of several of the components. This straight from one of the fellas that works in the ford development section and looks at competitive and inner power-train development.

So we can be educated and not listen to any more second had B.S. about our motors lets sort a few things out.

The S4 uses a all aluminum motor (there are some composites but for the sake of conversation its all aluminum)
This is not the first aluminum motor ever built. Porsche has several successful aluminum motors. The LS1 motor is a more common known power packed aluminum motor. There are several F1/GP motor cycles that run aluminum motors. The Lamborghini has a aluminum motor. The list can go on for a long time so, now that we know that what are some of the skeptics balking about.

Some of the laughable info lacked comments come from the argument that the B5 motor is stronger then ours cause its an old diesel motor and because of that the B5 motor is strong.......Well lots of the NEW diesel motors are all aluminum, take the turbo charged V10TDI all aluminum.

Audi and VW have several other all aluminum motors in the line up...so there goes that argument. The replacement for the old iron block strength is called technology and we have it.

The next line of issues with the block is the fact that, we don't have cylinder liners. Other companies like the LS1 have a sleeve in the bore to give the wall more strength. We have a chemical lining well its a little more complicated then that but there is a chemical that helps keep the walls of the cylinder strong. below is an example. Its not the exact picture of the chemical used, but it is one used in Audi blocks to give you an idea of what it is I'm talking about.


_This is what is in our motors and works___________________This is used in other aluminum blocks like the LS1


This is used in the Diesel blocks and good enough to hold strong. For anyone that says our blocks can't hold boost. keep this in mind. The twin turbo (under rated) 550tq and 550hp Porsche cayenne, uses the same aluminum block technology we do cylinder walls and all.

Keep in mind there are component failures on motors all the time, stock or other wise. There is going to be a limit to anything. The thought however that we are bound to smaller limits then other platforms due to the block is sure not true at what power levels we are looking at right now.

So with all that out of the way lets move on to the good stuff.

A little back ground before we go into the block. Its all aluminum, and its a 3 piece motor design.

The bed plate, main block and the cylinder heads.

As if the other stuff wasn't enough to show strength, Audi stepped it up with the bed plate usage. This is one more way to add strength to a block..

The gold standard back in the day was to have a 4 bolt main. This meant that you had 4 bolts holding the crank in its journal. The Main bolts hold all of the down force from the combustion. The main bolts are put threw CAPS, there are several of these and they would go in between each cylinder to hold the crank in place. With big caps and 4 bolts on the caps the only other thing that you could really do to help make the bottom end of the motor stronger was to Tie all the caps together.....well that is what Audi did with the Bed plate. Some would call it a main gurddle. So let look at the bottom of the motor.

You can see the 4 main bolts and the bed plate, shown here in the pic of the bottom part of the motor



If you were not able to understand here is the bolts removed and the bed plate being separated from the block



Here is the bed plate off the motor and sitting on its own



With that out of the motor here is a better view of that the motor looks like separated into its sections.



Lets take a look at the cylinder walls with the chem coating. For some reason the walls look more scratched then they were. Looks like I'm going to maybe run a fine hone threw it but we will see. I'm taking it to go get inspected before I decide on any other steps



And as a throw back to any good under engineered motor, you have to have individual cylinder oiling squirters...Thats right guys you can see how little Audi put into the motor by looking at the fact that they took time to make sure each cylinder has oil squirted into it (can you tell the sarcasm)



So there are the facts and the pic's. Please take some time and read threw it twice, you will probably find something you missed the first time. It took me several hours and lots of research to get this info. Obviously the limits of what we have are yet to be seen but now we know what we have and a good idea of what we can expect.

So next week we take on the Rotational assembly and see what that has in store for us. That with test results on the rods next week



(work in progress)

[91gl]

i love you (no homo)

[Justincredible]

i love you (no homo)

Thanks so much. It really helps, to have the feed back, rep bumps and kind words. I know some people just read and don't post but its nice to know all the work is helping and getting people excited.

I was just on a war path to squash some of the bad info that was out there. I have been getting lots of E mails and P.M.'s from people asking questions. Some of the questions were biased off info that they found and people claiming to have any info.

WOW it was a joke what people were putting out as info so this is so WE HERE know what is going on and the good and bad points of what our motors have to offer.

So first we were told we couldn't do a AWD burn out X that one off the list. Then we were told we had slow cars X that one off the list. Then we were told we couldn't go 12's with bolt ons X that one off the list. Then we were told we had weak motors X that one off the list. In the end the same people that were wrong about the B5 keep them self being consistently wrong about the B6.

So with this we can fight for the truth with facts.

[duud40]

This post makes me get up earlier on mondays . :) Great knowledge but I was kinda expecting more . I mean don`t get me wrong but nikasil has been the norm for the last 25 years :) . Mind you, every manufacturer has different types of superficial cylinder plating and they`re sometimes proprietary to each motor type. It`s both a good and a bad thing that the cylinders are one part with the upper gurdle.(cylinders are cast from the same piece as the block rather than being separate from the lower engine block) The good thing is that engine rigidity is increased and also warping when under high stress is greatly reduced . (bike manufacturers also did this when they started using engines as a structural part of the frame, yes that means that a bike frame with no engine is not as rigid as one with an engine fitted) . The bad thing is that should you ever have to re-plate the cylinder walls you will be charged extra by the shop for having to handle the whole upper block rather than 2 different 4 cyl blocks. This has also been the norm in automotive engineering for some years before the s4 4.2 block was designed by audi engineers (or it`s predecessor for that matter) .
Now for the individual cylinder squirters.... It`s a great touch and a big improvement for lubrication but not an innovation .
I`m by no means putting you down man. Keep up the good work and kudos for doing this on your own time. Give us more . Give us things like piston weights, measurements, engine combustion chamber cc`s, cam degrees, intake/exhaust valve weights and material, valve spring ratings, engine block cooling liquid capacity (for calculating thermal inertia and water flow needs for boosted apps)... You know, techy stuff.
Now , for the comment about b5 engine reliability and b6-b7 engine reliability.
Who made the claims... ? What examples do we have of engines failing under tuning (i`m talking about b6,b7 not about b5 because i`m sure there are plenty of people that boosted the crap out of those engines) ? Just keep the discussion above the '' this car can`t do burnouts '' level.
I`ll probably get flamed for this but I`m going to say it anyway because I feel it`s apropriate :
You haven`t gotten any further to proving what kind of power it`s going to be able to handle ,other than this is a great piece of engineering and it`s extraordinarily intricate and complicated.
I`m not saying you claim to have done this :).
More than that you have to keep something else in mind. The greater the complexity , the bigger the chances for one of the components to fail , it`s simple statistics.
I`ve got a lot more ideeas but I`m going to stop here because you`ll just say I`m flaunting or being a jerk.

[Shomegrown]

This is used in the Diesel blocks and good enough to hold strong.

Do you know of any diesel blocks which use Alusil? It would be news to me, I don't know of any.

For anyone that says our blocks can't hold boost. keep this in mind. The twin turbo (under rated) 550tq and 550hp Porsche cayenne, uses the same aluminum block technology we do cylinder walls and all.

This is true Justin. With all due respect though Justin, you're completely oversimplifying the facts.

Just because two blocks have the same construction materials, doesn't mean you can assume there's any parallels in strength. We can both agree design comes into play too.

Have you stripped down a Cayenne block? I have, it's significantly more robust than the Audi 4.2 block. The bore spacing is 108 mm versus Audi's 90 mm! That means Porsche uses a TON of extra material between the bores for strength, Audi doesn't. At the thinnest point, there is only 5.5 mm of material between the bores on the Audi 4.2. On the Porsche 4.8, it's 12 mm at the thinnest point. You will not find another non VW/Audi engine on the market with walls this thin.

Look at the two pictures below comparing the Audi block to the Porsche. The Porsche block has more than twice as much material between the bores.

Here is the Audi block...



Here is the Porsche block...

See the difference? When an engine is designed from the beginning for boost, obviously structural reinfocements are going to be used.

[Shomegrown]

Now for the individual cylinder squirters.... It`s a great touch and a big improvement for lubrication but not an innovation .

Agreed! The primary purpose is actually piston cooling, not lubrication. If you can control the piston temperature with oil cooling, you can design a tighter fitting piston which will peform better. Without oil cooling, the piston would get hotter under load, expland further, so you'd have to design a looser piston from the beginning.

Not to mention a cooler piston will have a longer fatigue life.

In terms of innovation, I can't think of any modern Audi engine (or German engine for that matter) which doesn't use oil jet piston cooling.

It's usually American engines which skimp on that sort of thing. None of the small block LS GM engines use it except for the new LS9.

Just keep the discussion above the '' this car can`t do burnouts '' level.
I`ll probably get flamed for this but I`m going to say it anyway because I feel it`s apropriate :
You haven`t gotten any further to proving what kind of power it`s going to be able to handle ,other than this is a great piece of engineering and it`s extraordinarily intricate and complicated.
I`m not saying you claim to have done this :).
More than that you have to keep something else in mind. The greater the complexity , the bigger the chances for one of the components to fail , it`s simple statistics.
I`ve got a lot more ideeas but I`m going to stop here because you`ll just say I`m flaunting or being a jerk.

I agree. Don't jump to conclusions, that doesn't do anyone any good. Show us the parts.

[durrmcdanks]

I don't even believe that such great information is front of me. Amazing job.

[04v8s4]

Yea...this is great information. I really appreciate your efforts to tear down the S4 engine and show its construction and components.

Its good to see that the engineers used a 4 bolt main cap girdle. One thing i didn't necessarily like is that the mains aren't splayed. I guess it may not be neccesary but many of the high strength blocks (especially Al blocks) used splayed mains to increase strength. For example the ford mustang Cobra motor (Romeo Block) use splayed mains. The ford GT uses the same concept. Note that both of those engines are boosted...and develop much higher compression forces because of it.

To be honest with you...without doing calculations and materials testing, you CANNOT be sure that this engine is as strong as you think. There's no doubt in my mind that the bottom end of this engine is strong enough for all the bolt-ons you can throw at it. But without doing some in-depth calculations you will not know if this block design can withstand significant boost or nitrous. I'm not talking about the pistons and rods. These can be changed out with relative ease (but high cost). The block design is fixed...there is nothing we can do about it.

Another thing I'm very concerned with... Those cylinders look terrible!! How many miles on this motor? I would expect to see some cross hatching. Those cylinders seem to have significant scratching. I would assume that re-applying a NiCaSil coating on the cylinders would be extremely expensive. Especially in comparison to swapping out an iron cylinder sleeve.

Anyways...keep the updates coming. I'm very interested to see what the pistons/rods look like.

Also...could you snap some pics of the main bearings? How did they look? After seeing the milkshake in the oil pan...i would like to see how the bearings look.

Thanks

[SpeedETC]

Justin, thanks once again for the write up. Reading this every week saves me the effort of doing it on my own... Are you taking donations??

[Shomegrown]

Another thing I'm very concerned with... Those cylinders look terrible!! How many miles on this motor? I would expect to see some cross hatching. Those cylinders seem to have significant scratching. I would assume that re-applying a NiCaSil coating on the cylinders would be extremely expensive. Especially in comparison to swapping out an iron cylinder sleeve.

That's fairly normal for Alusil engines (they are not Nikasil). They come from the factory with a nearly mirror like shine, you won't see a cross hatch like a typical iron block or aluminum block with cast in iron liner unless you really get up close. The structure of the crystals helps retain oil, so a rough cross hatch is not needed.

[whartung]

Just because two blocks have the same construction materials, doesn't mean you can assume there's any parallels in strength. We can both agree design comes into play too.

Have you stripped down a Cayenne block? I have, it's significantly more robust than the Audi 4.2 block. The bore spacing is 108 mm versus Audi's 90 mm! That means Porsche uses a TON of extra material between the bores for strength, Audi doesn't. At the thinnest point, there is only 5.5 mm of material between the bores on the Audi 4.2. On the Porsche 4.8, it's 12 mm at the thinnest point. You will not find another non VW/Audi engine on the market with walls this thin.

well then perhaps the gumpert apollo is a more relevant comparison?

our engine, twin turbo, producing what? 789hp iirc? clearly, our block is good for some serious power guys...

[Shomegrown]

well then perhaps the gumpert apollo is a more relevant comparison?

our engine, twin turbo, producing what? 789hp iirc? clearly, our block is good for some serious power guys...

Gumpert uses the old RS6 block which is totally different. It has almost nothing in common with the S4/RS4 block.

The S4's block is the bottom left. The Gumpert's block comes from the family of blocks shown in the bottom right (with additional structural reinforcements). The Gumpert's block was only designed for 450 hp, but it's possible to use it at higher ratings (with reduced factor of safety).

[whartung]

Gumpert uses the old RS6 block which is totally different. It has almost nothing in common with the S4/RS4 block.

The S4's block is the bottom left. The Gumpert's block comes with the family of blocks shown in the bottom right (with additional structural reinforcements). The Gumpert's block was only designed for 450 hp, but it's possible to use it at higher ratings (with reduced factor of safety).

i'm aware of the differences between the rs6 block and the S4 block. i was just under the impression the gumpert used that of the S4. didnt know it was an rs6 block instead.

[Shomegrown]

i'm aware of the differences between the rs6 block and the S4 block. i was just under the impression the gumpert used that of the S4. didnt know it was an rs6 block instead.

Yep, a lot of the develpment of the Gumpert's engine was done by Roland Mayer from MTM. I've spoken with him before about the project.

He will be the first to tell you the strongest Audi Aluminum V8's are the those with timing belts (based off of the design on the bottom right of the picture).

[Justincredible]

duud40: your questions as for pistons and other parts and such are not what it up for discussions this week and as you can see there is steps we are going threw and this is one more step. If you need more techY questions answered faster then I can get it your more then welcome to tear down a motor and get it. Till then your going to have to wait for the info like everyone else. This is to help those that know and those that don't

As for oil squerters not an innovation. That is up to do to decide for your self. Audi uses this on several of the other blocks but that was put in the cause it is IMO innovative and not used in other past aluminum blocks for other makes so take it as you wish.

...without doing calculations and materials testing, you CANNOT be sure that this engine is as strong as you think.

How do you know how strong I think the block is? I never said how strong or weak the block is. I just said its not to its limit.

[duud40]

I completely understand that this engine discussion is on your terms.
Please do not take my post as being negative. It was only enthusiasm on my part and nothing more. Maybe it was a mistake to post that reply and maybe it`s not productive.

[Justincredible]

I completely understand that this engine discussion is on your terms.
Please do not take my post as being negative. It was only enthusiasm on my part and nothing more. Maybe it was a mistake to post that reply and maybe it`s not productive.

Not a mistake but you have read the other parts of the post? We haven't even gotten that far yet but we will. Those are great questions that we will be looking into in the future.

Please guys offer suggestions on what we should be looking into at it comes up

[Justincredible]

1 Do you know of any diesel blocks which use Alusil? It would be news to me, I don't know of any.

2 This is true Justin. With all due respect though Justin, you're completely oversimplifying the facts.

Just because two blocks have the same construction materials, doesn't mean you can assume there's any parallels in strength. We can both agree design comes into play too.

3 Have you stripped down a Cayenne block? I have, it's significantly more robust than the Audi 4.2 block. The bore spacing is 108 mm versus Audi's 90 mm! That means Porsche uses a TON of extra material between the bores for strength, Audi doesn't. At the thinnest point, there is only 5.5 mm of material between the bores on the Audi 4.2. On the Porsche 4.8, it's 12 mm at the thinnest point. You will not find another non VW/Audi engine on the market with walls this thin.

1 no Alusil is only used on N/A motors at this time But the diesel blocks have a chem coated wall much like but not alusil. But the diesel motor had a plasma-sprayed coating applied. that helps keep the walls strong

2 no I'm not over simplifying them at all. Im just making a statement that says you can make diesel blocks out of aluminum and you can make big hp with our motor tech

3 dooly noted. I'm not saying our blocks are good to XXX power I'm simply saying that these style blocks and tech are used for much bigger Hp ratings then ours.
Further more the cylinder distance on the VW diesel blocks is 88mm and the 81 bore only uses a 7mm distance between bores. This is not good but that still works for the diesel.

[duud40]

Would the cylinder coating be a problem for boosted engines?

[Shomegrown]

Would the cylinder coating be a problem for boosted engines?

No, it's used on many boosted engines. The RS6, A6, S4, and Cayenne Turbo are examples.

[Justincredible]

Would the cylinder coating be a problem for boosted engines?

Its not for the porsche and there are other motors that use it with boosted apps.

Here is something to understand.

There are gaps between our and other motors.

The diesel motor has a T7 heat treatment
The Porsche has thicker walls

Our blocks were not built to these standards. They were how ever built to a standard that is not going to fall apart under a strong wind. The block is strong there are many blocks that are all aluminum that are making more power but are biased off less rigged principles. I don't and can't speak first hand about those, only the ACTUAL motor builders that I talked to can.

So I don't use that as a strong statement, however the statement from more then one performance motor builder and expert on relining the bores said. These are good motors. I spoke with one of the leading cylinder re liners for Porsche lambo "I have worked on lesser built blocks that made much more hp then what you guys are talking about (500whp)"
The fella that gave this statement. Builds and works for companies like underground racing that makes the 1200whp twin turbo lambo motors. *note the 1200whp motors have less to work with then we do but they sleeve the cylinders* they have yet to blow threw on the stock block but they spend the extra money to do so just incase