b6 s4 \ burning oil

[somethingcorp]

i purchased my car 3 month ago with 58,xxx miles. before i bought it i read that these cars tend to drink oil and eat spark plugs.... upon purchasing the car the previous owner brought it to the dealer for a full check up and 60k service which changed plugs, filter, and an oil.. the dealer gave it a look down faxed me over the service report and informed me that everything else was in perfect shape..

details of my driving i use the car daily and i must admit i do have a pretty heavy foot and drive the car quickly.. ex. i tend to take off from lights quick, highway driving is always at an avg. speed of 80-90 mph..

the problem i change the oil in every car that i have owned every 5k miles.. however, this car seems to be more temperamental. after the day of purchase i have sense put 6,000 miles on the car. before my first oil change my low oil light came on during a drive from new brunswick, nj to lbi.. this drive is roughly 75-100 miles.. i was about 4,000 miles shy before my first oil change and this warning magically popped on.. i bought a quart and put it in the car and did the oil change a day later..

since my last oil change i check the dip stick regularly.. i usually do it every 15 minutes after i turn the car off or fill it up at a gas station. during these regular checks i noticed that my oil seems to be low yet again.. the light is not on yet. just visually it appears low.. thier is no stains on my drive way were i park each night.. when i did my oil change on the lift i took off the pan i checked all over the car and thier was no sign of oil leakage anywhere everything was bone dry..

the questioni did read the car has a oil problem but does this one seem to be a little crazy? is there something wrong with the engine that it just eats oil? or could i be checking the dip stick at the wrong time? any advice that anyone has is greatly appreciated!!

Sorry for the bad grammer and incorrect spelling.. i am a very bad typer appologise in advance

[zv211]

Well, because of the car's drip-tray, you aren't likely to see any oil spots in your driveway even if it were leaking. If you have the ability to get the car in the air, or make it work where you can remove the drip-tray on the ground, check it to see if there is a bunch of oil sitting on it.

You mentioned that you have changed the oil since purchase. Do you mean that you've had it changed, or that you changed it yourself? If done yourself, did you have any problems replacing the filter cartridge? Another thing to look at, though I don't think you could lose the amount of oil you are referencing this way, would be a visual inspection of the Valve Cover Gaskets. See if they are wet along the perimeter near the bolts, particularly at each bottom slope. Check if you see 'caked on' spots of oil and debris.

All in all, I've read how some of these go through upwards of 2 quarts in between oil changes. If I'm not mistaken, Audi does not even consider this 'excessive' oil consumption - though many of us would. Get in there and see if you see some really wet spots and post anything you notice. For reference, though I consider myself quite lucky, my 2004 S4 6MT has 83K on it, and I lose only about 2/10 of a quart every 2-3K miles.

[pnkllr]

Keep in mind that our cars really were meant to have a 4-cylinder in it. With that being said, realize they stuff a big V8 in a small space, which creates tremendous amounts of heat, which makes the oil hotter. And with all those valves and cams, there is a lot of oil getting pumped around, and oil consumption is to be expected.

[homeychan]

These cars can use oil excessively, Audi is aware of the problem but doesn't seem to want to talk about it. Mine had the same problem every 4 to 5 tanks of fuel oil light, this is approx 1.7kgs of oil use. Solution so far for mine was a new short block ($12k cdn). My car had no oil stains, no smoke, just used a lot of oil. Sometimes the back bumper was dark from all the oil residue. Hopefully you still have warranty cause you need to start the claim ASAP. I have mine documented from 41,000kms using oil, they figured it out at 80,700kms (700 out of warranty) and Audi denied my claim. Hopefully you don't have the same problem as me. Some signs of my issues were low compression in 7 of 8 cylinders and a lot of oil residue in my cyclinders. Have the car looked at and good luck. Read about my experience here audiwarranty.blogspot.com, my service reports are posted too.

[chuckb6s4]

having a similar issue with the wifes b6 s4 never see any oil spots around, i also havent noticed any leaking valve cover gaskets or any other seals for that matter. i do my own oil changes and i wonder if i was complacent last time and just didnt put the full 9.5 quarts in the car. she got the low oil light in the car again, ill just start documenting mine to get a better basis on the oil consumption

[FarmerBob]

There seem to be tons of threads for B6 S4 oil consumption. Is the "normal" 1 quart for every 1000 miles of driving also "normal" for the B7 S4's? It seems the threads are normally for B6's only?

Anyway, if the manufacturer (Audi) says that it's normal for an engine to burn 1 quart of oil for every 1000 miles driving, then they must know something. I think that's sort of hogwash and a cop out for a manufacturer, since other companies' V8's don't burn anywhere near 1 quart for every 6-7K miles driven, but whatever. I think a better barometer for B6 engine life and functioning would be how well a high mileage B6 is doing, like JHM's 100K plus engine. It's getting beaten up pretty good with probably at least 450 crank hp (with the 100 hp nitrous shot) and it's still breathing and going strong. But, at 1 qt for every 1000 miles, I guess you never need to do an oil change since it's sort of continously being "refreshed" with new oil every 5K miles with 5 new quarts of oil. OP, try LubroMoly 5w/40, some seem to say it stops the oil loss.

[cpoulos2000]

My 2004 S4 now has 98,000 miles on it and the oil consumption is way out of control! It’s at the dealer now with the engine torn down, trying to determine if the extended warranty will cover a new engine. Initially the dealer used a scope and did find scoring on the cylinder but fidelity warranty wanted the engine torn down, in order to rule out carbon deposits vs scoring. So I had to authorize the dealer to tear it down, at my own cost. Now, after tearing it down, they noted the timing chain tensioner is broken … what does this mean for my chances of engine replacement being covered. Anyone have any experience with this, any advice?
still no decision on whether my engine is to be covered and replaced…

FYI: Oil consumption history
When I purchased the car new, it would burn approx 1 Qt every 1,000 miles. Which is within audi spec, unfortunately. As the miles added up the oil went more and more quickly. At 50,000 miles I began keeping a record(A MUST DO), it would go approx 700-800 miles before the oil light would come on. It quickly got worse, going to 500 miles per quart around 75,000 MILES. Once I hit 90K it was using a quart for every 300-400 miles. Now it’s going approx 100-300 miles on a quart!!!! That’s a quart for every tank of gas! I frequently drive Boston to northern Vermont 270 miles each way, now I have to add 2 quarts each way. 135 miles per F’in quart
So at 98,000 my warranty is about to expire and the oil consumption is more than an expensive pain in the ass, it’s just not sustainable, the engine is going down quick!

[dparm]

http://www.blackstone-labs.com/

I suggest you send a sample out to see what's happening. This can shed some light. I'd also get a compression and/or leakdown test performed.

[CHECKERED]

I solved the oil consumption issue by using Mobil 1 15W-50 and replaced one quart of oil with 1 qt Lucas oil stabilizer.
I change the oil once a year (I only put 4-5K a year) and only loose about half a quart.

[dparm]

I wouldn't call that "solving". You found a band-aid for a more serious problem.

[halik]

I solved the oil consumption issue by using Mobil 1 15W-50 and replaced one quart of oil with 1 qt Lucas oil stabilizer.
I change the oil once a year (I only put 4-5K a year) and only loose about half a quart.

That lucas stuff is garbage

[dparm]

It just thickens up the oil. That on top of 15w50 is scary.

[CHECKERED]

It just thickens up the oil. That on top of 15w50 is scary.

Yes very scary

no oil consumption
no leaky valve cover gaskets
no annoying rattle at start up

be afraid be very afraid

[vpfinnersw]

Yes very scary

no oil consumption
no leaky valve cover gaskets
no annoying rattle at start up

be afraid be very afraid

i'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but if you run super thick oil and additives, doesn't that increase overall oil pressure and put a lot of strain on the engine internals? In other words, you might not have rattles and oil consumption now, but the added strain on the engine because of way too think of an oil will eventually cause engine failure, no?

[dparm]

Yes, it can increase pressure but I'm not sure how to quantify it.

Manufacturers specify a particular viscosity for a reason...

[CHECKERED]

i'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but if you run super thick oil and additives, doesn't that increase overall oil pressure and put a lot of strain on the engine internals? In other words, you might not have rattles and oil consumption now, but the added strain on the engine because of way too think of an oil will eventually cause engine failure, no?

The strain is on the oil pump to work harder pushing the thinker oil around, resulting in a slight drop in hp, I lost about 3-4hp switching to the thicker oil. It doesn’t increase the oil pressure nor put any stain on other engine components.
I have being using that oil and additive in my altima for 7 years (65K miles) , no adverse effects to report.

[CHECKERED]

Yes, it can increase pressure but I'm not sure how to quantify it.

Manufacturers specify a particular viscosity for a reason...

"can increase" except it doesn't. There is more parasitical loss due to the oil pump working harder, just like if you had a stereo system in your car, the alternator will work harder resulting in a slight loss of power.

Manufactures recommended an oil based on an average operating temperature of the engine, average ambient temperature and average engine load, and to get the best possible mileage.

I live in so cal and drive the piss out of the car, so I need a thinker oil than 5w-30 that’s recommended to a person in cold climate with minimal engine load.

[Jengel451]

Here we go again. Going with too high a pressure can, in fact, lead to premature failure of bearings and such. Remember, oil FLOW is what Lubricates and Cools, not Pressure. (but there is a balance) If an oil is thick, it produces pressure, and decreases flow. You need a constant film of oil between your crank (or whatever) and the bearing surface, the more you can push through there the better.

15/50 is way too thick of an oil when cold, 90% of engine wear comes from startup, don't starve your engine especially when cold.

Also remember there are pressure relief valves, if the pressure is too high, valves will bleed that off by letting oil bypass the system, you just decreased your oiling by using a thicker oil.


If you all really think that thicker is better, then why do F1 Engines use straight 10 or 20 weight oils?

[CHECKERED]

If you all really think that thicker is better, then why do F1 Engines use straight 10 or 20 weight oils?

an F1 engine only had to last 3 hours...before being rebuild, and then scraped after 300miles

[Jengel451]

an F1 engine only had to last 3 hours...before being rebuild, and then scraped after 300miles

Huh, I guess you're right, thick oil is better.

[dparm]

Oil viscosity is all about compromise. The manufacturer gives you a recommendation based on the design of the motor. 15w50 or 20w50 is not going to blow up an engine, but it will have other negative effects. If I lived in a warm climate and tracked the car all the time, I would consider something heavy like that.

I think at this point we're just going in circles. People will do whatever they want. Me? I run 5w40 like Audi says and sleep soundly knowing I won't damage the motor.

[Jengel451]

I think at this point we're just going in circles. People will do whatever they want. Me? I run 5w40 like Audi says and sleep soundly knowing I won't damage the motor.

True words

[b5rs4]

how about 10w 30 I live in Orlando where it gets kind of hot ;) I just bought the car and did a oil change and spark plugs and some other maintainance stuff. I do have the cold start rattle ( only half a second or so) but I don't think I'm consuming oil or at least not badly since I changed it I have driven maybe 300 miles and I check it cold and warm and it seems to be the same measurament from when I changed the oil. my questions is and (sorry to take over the post)...how do you solve the rattle if and when I take the engine out ( for JHM stuff) what do I look for to fix that issue.

[dparm]

No to 10w30 unless it meets ACEA A3/B3/B4 and/or has HTHS 3.5.

It says right in the owner's manual what oil to use.

[SacAudi]

i totally get the argument for using the manufacturers spec oil, but can we entertain a debate about thicker oil? maybe it is what these cars need? so maybe the oil pump works harder, is anything else getting neglected from the thicker oil?

i think we have seen the consequences of not thick enough oil (seeping back from tensioners/chain) resulting in an oil less chain for a second? is this not true?

maybe the risks are worth the value added to more lubrication on these engine?

I am by no means an expert on oil, and i know dparm is.. I just think it might be worth debating... very hard to prove.

[ess_four]

The manufacturer gives you a recommendation based on the design of the motor.

Manufactures recommended an oil based on an average operating temperature of the engine, average ambient temperature and average engine load, and to get the best possible mileage.

I do not agree with statements like these. I do not believe that manufacturers look at each and every engine and then specify the type of oil based upon its duty cycle, performance, operating temps etc. It is more like they have an oil which is a Jack of all trades, master of none. As an example the same oil spec can be used in either a 1.4L 85bhp turbo diesel and a 4.2L 450bhp NA V8........These engines are at opposite end of the operating spectrum but yet the same engine oil can be used.

[JoeyZ]

^good point. I use Audi spec, but this is a very valid point.

[dparm]

I do not agree with statements like these. I do not believe that manufacturers look at each and every engine and then specify the type of oil based upon its duty cycle, performance, operating temps etc. It is more like they have an oil which is a Jack of all trades, master of none. As an example the same oil spec can be used in either a 1.4L 85bhp turbo diesel and a 4.2L 450bhp NA V8........These engines are at opposite end of the operating spectrum but yet the same engine oil can be used.

VAG develops oil specifications (there are basically two, to keep this discussion simple) that will fit a variety of motors. They typically err on the side of extra protection, hence a high-output V8 like ours uses the same oil as the bland NA 2.5 I-5 in a Jetta.

I agree that the spec might be a tad over-cautious but VAG does not want to be known as building cars that explode the day after the warranty expires. Even low-end synthetic oils, changed regularly, will let a modern engine run for hundreds of thousands of miles.

[dparm]

i totally get the argument for using the manufacturers spec oil, but can we entertain a debate about thicker oil? maybe it is what these cars need? so maybe the oil pump works harder, is anything else getting neglected from the thicker oil?

i think we have seen the consequences of not thick enough oil (seeping back from tensioners/chain) resulting in an oil less chain for a second? is this not true?

maybe the risks are worth the value added to more lubrication on these engine?

I am by no means an expert on oil, and i know dparm is.. I just think it might be worth debating... very hard to prove.

Easiest way to tell is to install an oil pressure gauge. Audi has a set of specs for what oil pressure needs to be at startup/idle/1000rpm/redline. You need an oil that can match those figures and provide adequate film strength, deposit control, diseprsant/detergent levels, etc. I explained earlier what an oil that's too thick can do. The rule is: as thin as possible but as thick as necessary.

Prove to me that an oil of HTHS 3.5 is too thin. I'll show you several oil analyses from my own motor that shows it's the correct viscosity, even for a car that gets out on the track and hits WOT every time I drive it. You will not blow your motor with 5w50 or 15w50. You will make the oil pump work harder, wear the oil out faster, and lose horsepower and gas mileage.

[dparm]

http://www.blackstone-labs.com/

I suggest you send a sample out to see what's happening. This can shed some light. I'd also get a compression and/or leakdown test performed.

Note that over a year ago I suggested a leakdown test. This will tell you how well things are sealing -- compression could be good but oil consumption can be through the roof (caused by carbon buildup, for example).

Simply putting in different oil won't fix anything, though sometimes if you change oil types a motor will need one or two changes to stabilize and you'll see consumption drop. This has to do with the differing chemistries reacting and/or differences in PAO levels.

[ess_four]

VAG develops oil specifications (there are basically two, to keep this discussion simple) that will fit a variety of motors. They typically err on the side of extra protection, hence a high-output V8 like ours uses the same oil as the bland NA 2.5 I-5 in a Jetta.

I agree that the spec might be a tad over-cautious but VAG does not want to be known as building cars that explode the day after the warranty expires. Even low-end synthetic oils, changed regularly, will let a modern engine run for hundreds of thousands of miles.

An oil spec being over cautious does not = a suitable engine oil. Why do these over cautious oils break down quickly and come oil change time they are well past their shelf life in terms of protection?

[dparm]

An oil spec being over cautious does not = a suitable engine oil. Why do these over cautious oils break down quickly and come oil change time they are well past their shelf life in terms of protection?

They are not breaking down. My comment about overly-cautious is not due to viscosity, but rather, the large sumps, big oil filters, and strict requirements on additives/shearing/soot dispersion (in diesels), wear protection, fuel dilution, etc.

The S4 is capable of running a 10K OCI, except in cases where people drive the car extremely hard. In those cases, Audi recommends changing it more often. I believe they call it the severe service interval.

I have seen plenty of oil analyses that showed appropriate wear numbers and sufficient TBN/TAN and proper viscosity/flashpoints to run the oil well past the 5,000 mile mark.

[mankytron]

Note that over a year ago I suggested a leakdown test. This will tell you how well things are sealing -- compression could be good but oil consumption can be through the roof (caused by carbon buildup, for example).

Simply putting in different oil won't fix anything, though sometimes if you change oil types a motor will need one or two changes to stabilize and you'll see consumption drop. This has to do with the differing chemistries reacting and/or differences in PAO levels.

How does carbon buildup cause oil consumption...unless you are referring the the rings being gunked up and not controlling oil?

[ess_four]

They are not breaking down. My comment about overly-cautious is not due to viscosity, but rather, the large sumps, big oil filters, and strict requirements on additives/shearing/soot dispersion (in diesels), wear protection, fuel dilution, etc.

The S4 is capable of running a 10K OCI, except in cases where people drive the car extremely hard. In those cases, Audi recommends changing it more often. I believe they call it the severe service interval.

I have seen plenty of oil analyses that showed appropriate wear numbers and sufficient TBN/TAN and proper viscosity/flashpoints to run the oil well past the 5,000 mile mark.

Would standby this statement after 20k miles? The Audi service intervals available in Europe for the S4 are either fixed, 10K, and variable, 20k. It is the latter which has shown that the oil is/has broken down come oil change time.

As I said before I am not convinced that an oil spec suitable for 3 cylinder 1.4 tdi can be used for a 8 cylinder 4.2L engine.

[dparm]

Europe has different gas and hence different oil and service requirements.

I do not know what the service intervals on non-US S4s are so I can't speak to them. If it really is 20k, that's probably not reachable with most off-the-shelf oils unless you go crazy with a Magnefine filter and a lot of other strange things, or perhaps an even bigger oil pan.


Until someone can definitively prove that the 502/505.01 spec (and ACEA A3/B3/B4) is unsuitable for a US car, I will continue using those oils.

I know that the 504/507 spec (European flexible interval) is backwards compatible with 502/505.01 (US fixed interval). Go here to see how they stack up and how strict the requirements are:

http://sas-origin.onstreammedia.com/.../pc/index.html

Changing the oil more often isn't really a bad thing except in cases of extremely short changes, so feel free to change sooner than 10k if you feel you need to.

[ess_four]

The service intervals for the S4/RS4 are as per my above post. I only do about 5-7k a year, mainly short commutes, but still change my oil on a annual basis. Primarily because the the average driving cycles never really get the oil fully up to operating temperature and this in itself can lead to problems.

Thanks for the link.

[dparm]

The service intervals for the S4/RS4 are as per my above post. I only do about 5-7k a year, mainly short commutes, but still change my oil on a annual basis. Primarily because the the average driving cycles never really get the oil fully up to operating temperature and this in itself can lead to problems.

Thanks for the link.

That's good to hear. Another concern with repeated short trips is the formation of acids in the crankcase, and that's not healthy for the motor in the long-term. My analyses showed that even high-end oils struggle with this after 8-12 months -- they don't have issues with shearing or low flashpoints.