FAQ: VR6 -12V & 24V Info sharing

[Wizard-of-OD]

Hello Everyone,
Issam here.I have been getting alot of PM's about the VR6 Swap into a B5/B6 chassis so I am dedicating time towards this thread so that all your questions can be answered.

If you are interested in purchasing any of the swap parts please EMAIL ME:
sales[at]inaengineering[dot]com
Thank You

[jasonsrt4]

Wow, That would be an awesome swap. But is it one of those "might as well buy a new car" swaps?

[djwimbo]

But is it one of those "might as well buy a new car" swaps?

VR-T swaps are pretty much the "newest" and "best" thing out there. I wouldn't go any other way.

[Wizard-of-OD]

Wow, That would be an awesome swap. But is it one of those "might as well buy a new car" swaps?

So far to date there are 5 B-chassis cars running around with VR6 motors.I want to see 30 before the end of the year

[Big Boost]

Do you offer your stand alone ecu that is ready to go and will control the existing dash info? More specifically, is it a plug and play where you could have the software already set to the needed parameters to operate the S4 info systems? If so, how much? Thanks.

[awtst3.a6]

Are you making a kit for this swap or offering tuning/instal? This would be one worth a trip to get worked on. As far as the a6.. I guess the question would be is the room about the same? I have heard these motors don't last that long. How long have you been testing this motor?

[Boris]

Do you offer your stand alone ecu that is ready to go and will control the existing dash info? More specifically, is it a plug and play where you could have the software already set to the needed parameters to operate the S4 info systems? If so, how much? Thanks.

yeah, issam could you give us a standard break down price on the swap,

ecu, custom mounts, whatever else just to get the VR6 in..?


$$

[ThirdStrike]

i dont see whats so complicated. you buy an adapter plate for the 01E to VR connection, the motor mounts, and some stand alone management. (all from 034) slap that VR in the b5 chassis and go forth....
again whats the big deal?

[diabolical1]

well, i've seen a couple here on the board and have heard of a few others. they all seem to be very impressive and perform well, however, i guess the biggest burning question i would have is ... why? i've been a fan of VR6s ever since i saw my first A1 Rabbit with a VR6 swap - about 1997 or so. i know they are very capable, but i guess i just don't see how they are ultimately any more capable than the 2.7TT.

what makes the VR6 more desirable? is it simply one of those things that people do just to be different?

[wdbdy2000s4]

well, i've seen a couple here on the board and have heard of a few others. they all seem to be very impressive and perform well, however, i guess the biggest burning question i would have is ... why? i've been a fan of VR6s ever since i saw my first A1 Rabbit with a VR6 swap - about 1997 or so. i know they are very capable, but i guess i just don't see how they are ultimately any more capable than the 2.7TT.

what makes the VR6 more desirable? is it simply one of those things that people do just to be different?

cheaper parts, easier to work on, more room in the engine bay, don't need to drop motor to swap turbos, 1 exhaust mani, 1 dp.

...and look at the dyno of chris greens car. It is perfectly smooth and offers full boost at about 4500rpm. If you build the heads that is 4000rpm at 35PSI!!

[Boris]

cheaper parts, easier to work on, more room in the engine bay, don't need to drop motor to swap turbos, 1 exhaust mani, 1 dp.

...and look at the dyno of chris greens car. It is perfectly smooth and offers full boost at about 4500rpm. If you build the heads that is 4000rpm at 35PSI!!

does the VR6 have a better volumetric efficiency than the 2.7tt? Also what weighs more, the Vr6 or the APB, similar weights?

[diabolical1]

cheaper parts, easier to work on, more room in the engine bay, don't need to drop motor to swap turbos, 1 exhaust mani, 1 dp.

OEM parts aside, i'm tempted to say there's not much difference in cost of parts for building up a VR6. however, i can definitely give you the other points you made.

thanks for replying though, at least i have an understanding now of what may make it more attractive to some.

[Matador]

what makes the VR6 more desirable? is it simply one of those things that people do just to be different?

Sexier exhaust note. :)

[RusS4]

i dont see whats so complicated. you buy an adapter plate for the 01E to VR connection, the motor mounts, and some stand alone management. (all from 034) slap that VR in the b5 chassis and go forth....
again whats the big deal?

seems a litte more complicated than that. i mean even chris green said that it wasnt ditect bolt in.

[pzp107]

What I got from lazzo when I talked to him was. You need the motor and head. Can use 12v or 24 v on a mk3 block. Then you need the tranny adapter plate (forgot how much), starter and starter adapter (forgot how much), custom flywheel (and maybe clutch but you may be able to source clutch yourself) (forgot how much), 034 IIc ecu with base map installed (so interior works and base map so car runs) 2600. I am assuming this comes with the plug and play harness for sensors etc. 034s Mount adapters as well. Custom exhaust for turbo or na. My question is the engine harness complete for you guys including ecu harness, sensors, wiring, all that good stuff? They told me about 5000 for it all to make the na vr motor in the car and running.

[megafreakindeth]

the VE of the engine isnt really what you need to worry about. the vr is far more stable at high rpms due to its 15 degree cyl spread vs the 30v's 90, thats more power to the ground. unfortunatly the uneven runners mess things up a bit but 3valve heads have their own fuel mixing problems which arent to be trifled with either(batch fire can solve this). the vr with individual throttle bodies is the best way to stabilize its main weakness, also making it a very strong power producer. wouldnt be too hard to rig up a plenum that can handle boost which would also be AWESOME. screw the old vrs and just go straight to the 3.6, that nasty bastard moves the new passat to 14.5 in the quarter with quattro and dsg.

some day in the futre im going to do the tdi a4 and get hated on by everybody and their grandmas but hey, ive got my friends bew up to 240 whp and thats sadly more than an s4 makes stock... with twice the milage.

[megafreakindeth]

also, can you not just recode the stock ecu to just see the vr ecm? assuming the can protocalls are the same i didnt think it would be an issue. say a 24valve bdf(i think) in a 2000 s4 should be about the same management setup.

[joemomma]

does the VR6 have a better volumetric efficiency than the 2.7tt? Also what weighs more, the Vr6 or the APB, similar weights?

It depends if the VR6 is turbo or not. Also with the 2.7 how much boost both of them are running. For example:

If you have a 12v VR6 turbo stock rev running say 25psi then the VE would be 2.29

If you have a 2.7tt with the 7200 rev limit like most aftermarket tunes and run 25 psi the VE is 2.4

The 2.7 has a higher VE because the number of valves. The VR6 is onyl a 2 valve which makes is only 85% efficient and the 2.7 is a 5 valve making it 92% efficient.

[S4evr]

If I had the choice to do it, the deciding factor would be does it make the car handle better or worse.

[laxman851]

Does anyone know the actual Height Width and Depth of the 2.8/3.2 and 2.7?

[onemoremile]

the VE of the engine isnt really what you need to worry about. the vr is far more stable at high rpms due to its 15 degree cyl spread vs the 30v's 90, thats more power to the ground. unfortunatly the uneven runners mess things up a bit but 3valve heads have their own fuel mixing problems which arent to be trifled with either(batch fire can solve this). the vr with individual throttle bodies is the best way to stabilize its main weakness, also making it a very strong power producer. wouldnt be too hard to rig up a plenum that can handle boost which would also be AWESOME. screw the old vrs and just go straight to the 3.6, that nasty bastard moves the new passat to 14.5 in the quarter with quattro and dsg.

some day in the futre im going to do the tdi a4 and get hated on by everybody and their grandmas but hey, ive got my friends bew up to 240 whp and thats sadly more than an s4 makes stock... with twice the milage.

Staggered runners? The intake runners are equal length, the cylinders are staggered. The stagger makes it the perfect engine for a twin scroll exhaust manifold too.

The engines are freakishly reliable too. My old 94 Jetta VR6 went 299k miles before dying of multiple accessory failure. Other than timing chain guides as a part of routine scheduled maintenance it never had any engine work. It was a track rat and autocross points contender at about 262k miles.

[Sigma 3]

Staggered runners? The intake runners are equal length, the cylinders are staggered. The stagger makes it the perfect engine for a twin scroll exhaust manifold too.

The engines are freakishly reliable too. My old 94 Jetta VR6 went 299k miles before dying of multiple accessory failure. Other than timing chain guides as a part of routine scheduled maintenance it never had any engine work. It was a track rat and autocross points contender at about 262k miles.

Jim is it true that you have to pull the motor to do anything with the timing chain?

[sean1.8t]

It depends if the VR6 is turbo or not. Also with the 2.7 how much boost both of them are running. For example:

If you have a 12v VR6 turbo stock rev running say 25psi then the VE would be 2.29

If you have a 2.7tt with the 7200 rev limit like most aftermarket tunes and run 25 psi the VE is 2.4

The 2.7 has a higher VE because the number of valves. The VR6 is onyl a 2 valve which makes is only 85% efficient and the 2.7 is a 5 valve making it 92% efficient.

you're forgetting the 2.8l 24V motor.

and the fact that you can put an R32 head onto the 24V(which would be like putting 2.8/RS4 heads on the APB).

[Sigma 3]

Is stand alone a must? I have seen the r32 swapped into other cars using me7 and uni tune that run pretty good.

[sean1.8t]

OEM parts aside, i'm tempted to say there's not much difference in cost of parts for building up a VR6. however, i can definitely give you the other points you made.

thanks for replying though, at least i have an understanding now of what may make it more attractive to some.

1-cheaper aftermarket parts.
2-less parts.
3-ease of swapping turbo's and exhaust manifolds

those are arguably the main 3 reasons why the VR motor is superior to the 2.7t. 1 GT35r is cheaper than 2 RS6's or GT28's. plus intercooler/intake plumbing is EXTREMELY more simplified. 1 cheap exhaust manifold compared to very expensive aftermarket manifolds(especially if you are going GT). and so on and so on

then you can add in much more aftermarket R&D. and real world testing. as the VR motor has been in production a lot longer than the 2.7t has. look at the few people that are making good power on the 2.7t. and then venture over to vortex and see the hundreds of people that are making 500, 600, 700++whp on VR's

[sean1.8t]

Is stand alone a must? I have seen the r32 swapped into other cars using me7 and uni tune that run pretty good.

if you gave your car to any respectable tuner(ASP, VAST, UNI, EPL, etc..) for about a month or so, im sure they could have your car tuned on stock ecu.

not sure on pricing for that though. could be quite a bit

edit- also, if you are going to venture into a project like this, SEM is where you want to go if you want to extract the true potential of a setup like this(talking for a 600+Awhp build)

[revhards4]

I believe the 24v vr6 is a direct swap with the adapter plate only. The 12v vr6 is not. The most desirable reason to go VR6 is not that it's a better motor than the 2.7t it's just that there is more room to run a very large turbo. More difficult with the space provided with the v6.

[Dr.Duct]

Any thought of making a total parts kit??

Meaning a list of what extra's you would need?

Id be interested in taking a look at it, If I had a needed parts list and some idea's on pricing.

VR6's are a dime a dozen and easy to get built and pretty cheap from my understanding. I know the Standalone runs in the park of $2,500ish.. You need an adapter piece for the bell housing? What else exactly is involved?

[wdbdy2000s4]

idk about the mounts...maybe they work for the 24valve...but:

well i say bolt in because thats what we were told, but we made our own mounts and intake manifold, modded the factory power steering and alt braket and all the coolant pieces, so your avg person i dont think could perform this swap in there garage

[Wizard-of-OD]

Do you offer your stand alone ecu that is ready to go and will control the existing dash info? More specifically, is it a plug and play where you could have the software already set to the needed parameters to operate the S4 info systems? If so, how much? Thanks.

We can make a plug and play system to use the 034 Stage IIc,that would not be an issue.The issue would lie in being able to pass inspections in your state.If that can be solved then you are golden.

Are you making a kit for this swap or offering tuning/instal? This would be one worth a trip to get worked on. As far as the a6.. I guess the question would be is the room about the same? I have heard these motors don't last that long. How long have you been testing this motor?

We allready have a 12V kit that is pretty much bolt in for any B5 chassis.

The 24V kit I am working on still.This is my own personal project:


You can see the use of OEM motor mount brackets

seems a litte more complicated than that. i mean even chris green said that it wasnt ditect bolt in.

I went down to Florida to help out Chris with the project.

The reason I created this thread is that there is too much misinformation floating around so if I or anyone from 034 did not post it then take it with a grain of salt.No engine swap is direct plug and play but like ALL engine swaps the more people that do them,the more information gets transferred around making the swap easier and easier to do.

idk about the mounts...maybe they work for the 24valve...but:

See post below

I believe the 24v vr6 is a direct swap with the adapter plate only. The 12v vr6 is not. The most desirable reason to go VR6 is not that it's a better motor than the 2.7t it's just that there is more room to run a very large turbo. More difficult with the space provided with the v6.

The 12V VR6 is the same as the 24V.

The issue with the 12V VR6 motor is that it came in 5 chassis's at most and NONE of them were longitudinally mounted.This meant that the block did not have alot of provision for mounting bosses of an engine mount bracket.The only mounting boses you will find on a 12V VR6 motor @ the rear for the MKIII VR6 rear engine mount bracket (4 boses) and on the front of the motor for the accessory bracket.The reason why we say you cant run AC if you want a sturdy bracket is because you build a bracket that goes where the AC compressor once went.

The 24V VR6 motor came in NUMOUROUS chassis:
* Porsche Cayenne
* Audi Q7
* VW Phaeton
* VW Touareg
* Audi A3
* Audi TT
* VW Golf
* VW Jetta
* VW R32
* VW Eurovan
* VW Sharan
* Seat Leon
etc etc...

Whenever VAG uses an engine in numourous chassis's you can almost guarantee that it will stuff as many mounting boses on the block as it possibly can.Any 1.8T users in here ever looked at there block close up? You would see 4 different configurations for mounting a 1.8T motor.The 24V VR6 motor was no different.

Here is a list I put together yesterday on Motorgeek:

2.8 24V VR6 Engine - 1500 USD (high) to 1000 USD (low).
Manifold - can use a y-pipe EIP style - 250 USD or full log - 600
Downpipe - 495
GT3582R - 1295
Clutch Set up - 790
Flywheel - 430
Adapter Plate - 210
Starter Motor - 425
Engine Management - 1700 USD for the Stage II + 595 for the harness = 2295 or if you have the skill....put a 24V harness in the B chassis.
OEM Motor mount brackets - 600
Fueling - (6) 630cc injectors and an adjustable FPR - 540
Oil pan - 500
Misc - 2000

And I am being over generous

Total = 11680

And you will have a set up that will blow the doors off any S4 out there.

On my own personal project the plan was to graft the ME-7 harness into a BX chassis but anyone here who has done wiring knows that this is a task that will drive you insane.The only other possible solution was to get the S4 harness and modify it to work on either engines.Great for a 24V but sucky for a 12V.

[wdbdy2000s4]

Good info Isaam.

You could also sell your 2.7 motor for $2000 (depending on mileage) too b/c you won't be using it again. rather then buy a vr for $1500, you could buy a high mileage VR for 500 and build it up with the extra $1000 you saved, plus the $2000 from selling your 2.7.

[ThirdStrike]

We can make a plug and play system to use the 034 Stage IIc,...

^Any other questions?? lol ^
I'd like to reiterate in case someone didnt catch it.. the 12v VR block is the same block as the 24v VR. VAG just added 2 valves on the head(and change the way the intake/tb/and some other small stuff is configured)
again i dont see how this can be taken as something thats super complicated.
id say a 1.8 swap into a mk2 is much more in depth...
Perfect Example

Good info Isaam.

You could also sell your 2.7 motor for $2000 (depending on mileage) too b/c you won't be using it again. rather then buy a vr for $1500, you could buy a high mileage VR for 500 and build it up with the extra $1000 you saved, plus the $2000 from selling your 2.7.

great idea and you make it sound so easy... some people cant sell a 2.7 for even 1500 tho..
hope you have a daily beater to drive to and fro

[Wizard-of-OD]

the 12v VR block is the same block as the 24v VR. VAG just added 2 valves on the head(and change the way the intake/tb/and some other small stuff is configured)

Same configuration but not really the same block.You cant take a 24V head and slap it on a 12V block.

FIRST GEN VR6 - 2.8/2.9 12V - AAA
SECOND GEN VR6 - 2.8/3.2 24V VR6
THIRD GEN VR6 - 3.6 VR6 found in the Passat CC and others.

There is rumour that a FOURTH GEN VR6 will be coming out but I do not see it happening anytime soon.

[ThirdStrike]

Same configuration but not really the same block.You cant take a 24V head and slap it on a 12V block.

FIRST GEN VR6 - 2.8/2.9 12V - AAA

THIRD GEN VR6 - 3.6 VR6 found in the Passat CC and others.

There is rumour that a FOURTH GEN VR6 will be coming out but I do not see it happening anytime soon.

SECOND GEN VR6 - 2.8/3.2 24V VR6 - AFP / BDF / BJS

...but i thought the block was the same as AAA... guess i was wrong

[RusS4]

Hey issam you have miscellaneous as $2000 i was just wondering what that would be.

[jfunkey]

If you wish to build the motor add another 3-4k for all the motor, head work and machining. Then add another 4-5k for a nice turbo setup, plus then theres the exhaust etc. At the end of the day it's not cheaper it might actually be more..

[ThirdStrike]

Sexier exhaust note. :)

sound cannot be matched. this is a perfect reason to say VR>V6
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAxA9...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YU9SG...e=channel_page

[AudiA4_20T]

Hey issam you have miscellaneous as $2000 i was just wondering what that would be.

Exhaust, turbo lines, intake, wastegate, wg dump, catch can, I can go on for awhile

[Dr.Duct]

The temptation continues to grow....

[mwebb]

well i thought id post this here theres a guy local to me thats selling an 02 vr6 for 300 the timing belt broke and he just got a replacement motor he didnt take the head off but its prolly toast so if anyone on here is looking for a vr6 block let me know and ill send u the guys info