FMIC vs. SMIC

[Michael Cox]

FMIC vs. SMIC

Hey fellas here is my not so daily, daily thread.

I live in Arizona so I know that an aftermarket/larger inter cooler is needed or at least much appreciated by your engine. So I am in the market for one and I've seen all kinds shapes/sizes in the past few weeks.

However, I have some thoughts, theories and/or questions if you like. Now there is no doubt in my mind that an aftermarket intercooler will help the car run better and I also know that we are probably splitting hairs here. And by "we" I mean "me".

Both the FMIC and SMIC have their advantages (in my mind anyway) The advantage to the FMIC is it is put directly into the path of the cleanest coolest air and you can get them pretty damn big. However, I am wondering about what if any effects this has on the radiator.

What I mean is, the FMIC goes before your radiator and I can't help but think that since this FMIC will get hot from the water flow inside that the metal will obviously become hot. Now my understanding is the air flow through the fins is great.

But that fresh air that just came through the grill and passed through the FMIC is now hot air that is now going to pass through the radiator in an attempt to cool it off. In doing so the water temps in the radiator will increase a bit or at least not lower as much as they could which will steal some of the power that the FMIC helped to keep. Notice I said KEEP not GAIN. Inter coolers just help to prevent power loss. They do not add power they only help you keep and use what is already there.

I realize I am talking about a very small issue if any but after a hard day of driving in already hot temps I can't help but think that some of the benefits that the FMIC provides is actually taken back by the same piece of equipment.

The SMIC (aftermarket) may be a bit smaller but I can't help but think that even though they may be smaller in size that the added benefit of them not blowing hot air over the radiator may make up for their smaller frame. Also there are the scoops at the bottom of our fender to help direct air over the coolers. Not sure if they will direct the air directly over the coolers since I have not seen one in person but it sounds good on paper.

I am interested to hear any ones comments. Just don't flame me please....

.

[AE Performance]

Michael,

Good talking to you on the phone earlier, if you have any other questions re: your comparisons for me, feel free to email, or call again. Glad to help-

Nick

[Michael Cox]

Michael,

Good talking to you on the phone earlier, if you have any other questions re: your comparisons for me, feel free to email, or call again. Glad to help-

Nick

Thanks Nick,
I guess I should tell evrybody I already spoke to Nick. But now I guess you all know that, don't ya...LOL

[djvice]

I'm wondering the same thing.

Are you coming to the EvoMS "First Thursday" meet in an hour?

[Michael Cox]

I'm wondering the same thing.

Are you coming to the EvoMS "First Thursday" meet in an hour?

Where is this at?

[djvice]

Tempe. Address PMed

[Stone825]

Well one advantage to side mount intercoolers is that you don't have to worry about losing your AC. With a front mount you can get your AC back but it sounds pretty damn loud (it's usually a $150 - $250 add on).

With side mounts you do not have to worry about relocating stuff.

WHOOPS: Not sure if this applies to B7's

[djvice]

Wait////you lose your air conditioning with a FMIC?????

[harryd14]

hmm... never heard of losing your AC with a FMIC, otherwise im sure a lot of ppl would chose SMIC over the FMIC's...

[djvice]

I'd be interested to know if a FMIC or a SMIC perform better...and if so how much better.

[Technik0000]

it is also a good possibility that with an overly large FMIC that there will be an increase in turbo lag due to the larger amount of space that the air needs to fill.

[ray-ray]

I'd be interested to know if a FMIC or a SMIC perform better...and if so how much better.

you can't just say FMIC vs SMIC and which design is better. because take into consideration this scenario :

1. ATP FMIC vs OEM SMIC's - the ATP fmic is relatively smaller than the OEM SMIC's. Now since its smaller than OEM, it would theoretically have less ability to cool the charged air that passes through it, making the OEM SMIC's in theory superior to that FMIC.

2. ATP FMIC vs. ER SMIC's - the evo racewerks SMICs are nearly twice the size(with both cores combined) as the ATP FMIC, making the SMIC's in this case a better cooling design for the charged air compared to ATP's FMIC.

3. put the ER SMIC's against a well designed FMIC and that will be a good battle :)

so as you can see in those scenarios, it heavily weighs on the design of the intercooler that you are using. Some may argue that the FMIC is up front so it get's direct air flow, which is better for cooling. Well if you also look at the SMIC design for our car, there are shrouds that Audi uses that guides the air DIRECTLY to each SMIC core, which then these cores also get direct air flow during driving conditions.

to really sum this up, IMO there isn't just a simple way to decide which design FMIC or SMIC is better. you need to compare what kits you will be considering purchasing and weigh out the pros/cons of each kit. we are running k03's here for the most of us (less than 270 crank HP), and making at the most with a BT application ~ 350 crank HP on 91 oct, so really as long as you go with a well designed intercooler whether its a FMIC, or the upgraded SMIC's, im pretty sure it will meet your needs.

[Michael Cox]

I agree with Ray-Ray 100%.

But, I am still curious if any of the more experienced guy's have any idea's on what I am thinking.

Which is because the FMIC is in front of the radiator that it will cause the radiator temps to be higher than they would without the FMIC. So in effect some of the benies you get with the FMIC are taken back because it is causing the radiator temps to run a bit hotter?......

[Todd/AWE]

With our FMIC, you don't lose any AC function or risk elevated coolant temps.

We saw both issues on the B5 S4 during IC development, so we were very sensitive to testing these systems on the B7 A4.

We have tested our B7 A4 FMIC in 100+F ambient temps multiple times, and have done extensive hot track testing, and there has never been any issues (confirmed by passenger comfort and scan tool).

[Slo.Mo.Shun.]

FMICs are the way to go, the problem with the OEM SMIC is the unnecessary piping and the lack of airflow through them (Unless you are really moving).

With both the ATP FMIC and the GS eBay FMIC we have seen 20F drops in intake charge (cruising slowly as well as during sprinted driving) and some more boost. If you add water meth on top of that you can expect to see numbers bellow ambient temp.

Now as far as the FMIC affecting other cooling components, its a myth (Dont get me wrong it makes sence). The difference in coolant temp is negligible even with the massive AWE core. While air paces through the FMIC it gets cooled down almost instantaneously, thus making the air that goes to the other components almost exactly the same temp as without the FMIC.

While running logs we saw no difference in coolant temp, on my car with SMIC and the other two with FMIC.

[Michael Cox]

FMICs are the way to go, the problem with the OEM SMIC is the unnecessary piping and the lack of airflow through them (Unless you are really moving).

With both the ATP FMIC and the GS eBay FMIC we have seen 20F drops in intake charge (cruising slowly as well as during sprinted driving) and some more boost. If you add water meth on top of that you can expect to see numbers bellow ambient temp.

Now as far as the FMIC affecting other cooling components, its a myth (Dont get me wrong it makes sence). The difference in coolant temp is negligible even with the massive AWE core. While air paces through the FMIC it gets cooled down almost instantaneously, thus making the air that goes to the other components almost exactly the same temp as without the FMIC.

While running logs we saw no difference in coolant temp, on my car with SMIC and the other two with FMIC.

Thanks Wolf,

This is what I was looking for. Also just to be clear I am talking about aftermarket SMIC not Oem. Just incase there is a difference.

Thanks again

[djvice]

You make a great point HID. Does enough air flow to the SMIC on a daily driver (45mph average on the streets, 75mph on the freeways)

While running logs we saw no difference in coolant temp, on my car with SMIC and the other two with FMIC.

You're talking about the stock OEM SMIC, right?

[Slo.Mo.Shun.]

Im talking about the stock SMIC, but if the stock have flow issues due to the duct design the after market ones will as well. Is just that they are more efficient.

[ray-ray]

Im talking about the stock SMIC, but if the stock have flow issues due to the duct design the after market ones will as well. Is just that they are more efficient.

I'm not clear on what u mean by this. What duct design are u referring to?

[eskimopunk]

I'm not clear on what u mean by this. What duct design are u referring to?

the ducts in the bumper that allow air to flow to the smic's

[Mike@PureMS]

Out here in the hot Temecula desert we've never had any issues related with running FMIC's on the B7. Temps out here often reach 110+ during the summers, and even with the big AWE FMIC's there's no adverse affects on the cooling of the vehicle.

[AE Performance]

Well one advantage to side mount intercoolers is that you don't have to worry about losing your AC. With a front mount you can get your AC back but it sounds pretty damn loud (it's usually a $150 - $250 add on).

With side mounts you do not have to worry about relocating stuff.

WHOOPS: Not sure if this applies to B7's

I think you may be mistaken, good sir.

[Jibberific]

I've been running a pretty tall FMIC (racetec) for almost a year now. It works great and i've never noticed even the slightest effect on engine temps from the radiator being blocked. It still gets more than sufficient airflow to do its job.

[Geoffafa]

I appreciate every day i run with my FMIC. Lately, everyday here has been 100F+, and I know for a fact the intercooler has held up perfectly, without sacrificing a/c or radiator temps. The logs that HID@Wolfcars was talking about with the God Speed FMIC was my car. The ATP FMIC was from Adam's car. All three have W/M injection and both my car and Adam's car have seen significant gains over the SMICs

[9Hooker]

you guys realize even if you do have increased temps in the coolant in the radiator it doesn't, or should I say probably won't, have any effect on the coolant temp in the motor. the coolant temp in the motor should be in a very specific window. your thermostat controls this. the water gets too cool, it closes a bit. when water too hot, it opens more. the thermostat is not open 100%, all the time.

say the fmic causes the temp in the radiator to go up by 5 degrees. so what? that means that a little more often the thermostat will be open instead of (relatively) closed.

edit. that being said the liquid to air intercooler is where it's at.

[Michael Cox]

you guys realize even if you do have increased temps in the coolant in the radiator it doesn't, or should I say probably won't, have any effect on the coolant temp in the motor. the coolant temp in the motor should be in a very specific window. your thermostat controls this. the water gets too cool, it closes a bit. when water too hot, it opens more. the thermostat is not open 100%, all the time.

say the fmic causes the temp in the radiator to go up by 5 degrees. so what? that means that a little more often the thermostat will be open instead of (relatively) closed.

edit. that being said the liquid to air intercooler is where it's at.

This is a good point Hooker. To be honest I didn't even think about the thermo. So with that in mind it is kind of a moot point....

Good looking out!

[Grassmonkey]

The major issue with the SMICS or even aftermarket SMICS is that that the flow to the intercoolers is good but after that there is no flow behind the coolers. The wheel wells are closed so no air can pass through.
Also the SMICS are placed just below a horizontal steel member such that the area around the SMICS becomes a high pressure area, however with less airflow.

I have looked into some air passageway from behind the IC's but on the driver's side the window washer tank takes up all the area behind the IC, so even with wheel well slats there wont be that much airflow through the IC's.

This has me leaning over to a well designed FMIC, although I would of preffered the ER SMICS.
Or untill VF comes with there water/air intercooler, which is taking immensly long to develop.