Buy new EGTs, or Chip that has EGT delete?

[SciroccoTDI]

Hey all,

Newb S4 owner, getting my new ride up to speed. Have the annoying odd boost issues (surges, not consistent accel under partial throttle). Found that this is likely bad EGTs, and sure enough, pulled codes and both have shot the wad.

Now, I could dump $500 into new sensors, and have a nice driving stock vehicle again. Or, I have heard that some of the chip tuning places offer chips that ignore the EGTs. This car is stock, turbos are beginning to whine, so I know I will have to do them soon...I don't mind that chipping would blow them up. Would love some opinions and links to the chip tuning companies that offer this. (I heard mention of OPL or something having EGT delete in their chip?)

What would you do in my shoes? 2 bad EGTs, stock car, planning to do K04s...

Thanks in advance!

-Eric

[wdbdy2000s4]

1. I think you mean EPL
2. EGTs are cheaper than a tune
3. I'm not sure how good of an idea it is to buy a tune simply b/c your EGTs are blown out, if you do go k04 soon then you will be rebuying a tune or using lemi to tweak you EGT delete tune.

I'd just man up and buy the EGTs, you could even get them used. You're going to kick yourself in the ass when you get k04s in a month and have to redrop 800 on a tune.

[SciroccoTDI]

1. I think you mean EPL
2. EGTs are cheaper than a tune
3. I'm not sure how good of an idea it is to buy a tune simply b/c your EGTs are blown out, if you do go k04 soon then you will be rebuying a tune or using lemi to tweak you EGT delete tune.

I'd just man up and buy the EGTs, you could even get them used. You're going to kick yourself in the ass when you get k04s in a month and have to redrop 800 on a tune.

Valid points...hadn't thought of that. I figured the K03 based tune would run on the K04s just fine....showing my ignorance of chip tuning on these cars. I'll do some more research.

Anyone have any suggestions for cheaper than ecstuning for the EGTs? Genuine has seriously cranked up their prices.

[mholme]

Anyone have any suggestions for cheaper than ecstuning for the EGTs? Genuine has seriously cranked up their prices.

Is the pricing on the site for the new "kit"? As far as I know, they only come in pairs now. You could always try to find someone parting out a car with known good ones. Little bit of a risk but a lot cheaper.

[wdbdy2000s4]

One of the tuners posted up used EGTs a little while ago but I don't remember who. APspecialties has like 4000items on ebay too so they'll probly have EGTs.

[haus4]

One question, why would you want to delete your EGTs? They are there are a reason and that is to measure how hot your exhaust is. Its not a big deal on gas engines, but with diesels is the first gauge you put in when you add fuel. With adding fuel, on a gas engine, it could make your combustion gases hotter and thus your EGTs. I would personally get new EGTs, its just one more way to check on how your engine is running. Plus I thought they only get rid of the 02s for the pre cats?

[obviouspro]

Valid points...hadn't thought of that. I figured the K03 based tune would run on the K04s just fine....showing my ignorance of chip tuning on these cars. I'll do some more research.

You are somewhat correct, you can tweak a K03 file yourself and run K04's on it. But props to you for searching haha, don't see that much around here.

One question, why would you want to delete your EGTs? They are there are a reason and that is to measure how hot your exhaust is. Its not a big deal on gas engines, but with diesels is the first gauge you put in when you add fuel. With adding fuel, on a gas engine, it could make your combustion gases hotter and thus your EGTs. I would personally get new EGTs, its just one more way to check on how your engine is running. Plus I thought they only get rid of the 02s for the pre cats?

Wouldn't adding fuel lower combustion gas temps? I thought EGTs were basically a back up sensor for when the motor is running too lean so then fuel can be dumped.

[SciroccoTDI]

You are somewhat correct, you can tweak a K03 file yourself and run K04's on it. But props to you for searching haha, don't see that much around here.


Wouldn't adding fuel lower combustion gas temps? I thought EGTs were basically a back up sensor for when the motor is running too lean so then fuel can be dumped.

On a gas engine yes, rich mixture tends to lower EGT, on diesels its a different matter completely...if you add fuel on a diesel, but not enough boost, your EGTs skyrocket.

Thats why most chip manufacturers on GAS cars choose the rich side of the mixture...its a cover your ass scenario.

So, a local shop is doing custom tunes, I had a discussion with them. This is the same shop I am planning on having do the K04 swap when the K03s kick the bucket. He said no problem on a non-EGT custom K03 tune now for around $900. When the K04s are dropped in, he said he would re-tune for about $300...he normally charges about $1100-1200 for a custom stage 3 tune, so realistically, I am just breaking up the cost into payments, and I don't have to buy new EGTs. I am very much leaning towards this as it makes quite a bit of financial sense in the long run considering my plans.

Comments welcome.

Shop in question, and their tuning program:

http://www.avalonmotorsports.com/ind...b6d346f15be939

[Cobrakiller08]

What side do you need? I have some extra ones that I would be willing to sell. egt's that is. let me know. just pm me

[haus4]

Im glad that I know the on gas cars adding more fuel lowers EGTs. I just expected it to be the same as diesel. I was to lazy to search. Your plan for the chip looks good to me.

[lnferno]

Definitely go with Avalon. I won't let anyone in Colorado touch my car except them.

[Champion2901]

I would replace the EGT's...It makes the most sense...the purpose of the EGT's are to let the ecu know when the turbo temp gets to hot i think the range is from 1900 to 2200 once you pass 2200 the ecu cuts the power...if your EGT's dont work you will probably sonic the turbo and that when you see the hot side of your wheel in your exhaust!!!

[megafreakindeth]

egts allow for real time fuel correction, they respond much faster than o2 sensors so if you have a freak lean out it can go into limp mode instantly. running a static tune is easier to tune for but for all around performance it kinda lacks. fixing them now makes a nice difference in the way the car drives and gas mileage so id go and install them.

a better thing to remove is the n249 valve as its stupid. if its actually working it will try to pull back boost in a corner if your on the throttle which then causes more understeer, without it you can just slip the wheels with ease(i have a 2000 so no esp)

[wdbdy2000s4]

1200 is kinda a lot for a tune...If you go to JHM or SSP they will get you out the door with new EGTs and a tune for the same price. I realize it's "custom," but they already have OTS files that they tweak...I don't see it being worth anywhere near 1200 unless it comes with 3 programs.

[megafreakindeth]

1200 may be for a complete remap with dyno pulls and actual attention to your car vs an out of the box one size fits all setup that apr and giac sell. i dont have money for that but it will be a much better deal.

[Caddy7]

I have a problem with my EGT to. If I want to replace the sensor I need to pull the engine and replace the manifolds. So I rather find another solution.


So how about using the working EGT to provide signal to 2 inputs on the ECU.

What if the signal wire from the working EGT is connected to both inputs on the ECU. Since they would be plugged in parrallell, will they be of the same strengt? (showing right temp) or is there a need to amplify the signal?


Any electronics knowledge around to comment? Also if anyone have a electric diagram so I can figure out witch of the wires are what?

[mholme]

Dude....We've been over this...it aint gonna work that way.

[sumpsfast]

1200 is kinda a lot for a tune...If you go to JHM or SSP they will get you out the door with new EGTs and a tune for the same price. I realize it's "custom," but they already have OTS files that they tweak...I don't see it being worth anywhere near 1200 unless it comes with 3 programs.

A lot of time and effort goes into tuning a car at 5000-6000 ft elevation, as opposed to something at sea level. And this obviously isnt an out-of-the-box tune, but rather a complete remap done revision by revision on the street, in real-time, instead of on a dyno. The results are there, just ask some of the guys who have purchased Altituned products....

[Dr. Jekyll]

If you have a good tune, EGT sensors are pointless. The EGT's on the S4 only read between 945 and 1035. If the exhaust gas temps are getting that high the EGT's will start registering and the car will then dump fuel in order to cool things down. This is good for a stock car which runs pretty lean and can, on extended WOT runs (think autobaun), get EGT's that high. BUT if you have a good aftermarket tune your car should NEVER see EGT's that high and your car certainly should NEVER be dumping fuel. If you are getting EGT's that high, get a new tune ASAP!

The only other time your EGT's might get that high (assuming you have a good tune) is if you have a fuel system failure. By that I mean you start running lean because of some mechanical issue. But if that happens, it doesn't matter that your EGT's are functioning... you wont be able to dump fuel since you have ran out of fuel anyway. So the EGT's are pointless in that scenario.

So if you have a good tune, EGT's can be turned off with no adverse issues.

[Don Supreme]

If you have a good tune, EGT sensors are pointless. The EGT's on the S4 only read between 945 and 1035. If the exhaust gas temps are getting that high the EGT's will start registering and the car will then dump fuel in order to cool things down. This is good for a stock car which runs pretty lean and can, on extended WOT runs (think autobaun), get EGT's that high. BUT if you have a good aftermarket tune your car should NEVER see EGT's that high and your car certainly should NEVER be dumping fuel. If you are getting EGT's that high, get a new tune ASAP!

The only other time your EGT's might get that high (assuming you have a good tune) is if you have a fuel system failure. By that I mean you start running lean because of some mechanical issue. But if that happens, it doesn't matter that your EGT's are functioning... you wont be able to dump fuel since you have ran out of fuel anyway. So the EGT's are pointless in that scenario.

So if you have a good tune, EGT's can be turned off with no adverse issues.

Maybe the ECU can also put the car into limp mode or shut the throttle plate if EGTs are unchecked after dumping fuel..

[Caddy7]

Dude....We've been over this...it aint gonna work that way.

The only thing we have been thru is you saying it's not going to work! Have you tried? I have heard your opinion now, so could you explaination WHY it's not going to work?

Please someone else who have played with electonics have any suggestions if putting the signal from one working EGT in parallell w/ a broken to fool the ECU it still have 2, can or can't be done?

[SciroccoTDI]

A lot of time and effort goes into tuning a car at 5000-6000 ft elevation, as opposed to something at sea level. And this obviously isnt an out-of-the-box tune, but rather a complete remap done revision by revision on the street, in real-time, instead of on a dyno. The results are there, just ask some of the guys who have purchased Altituned products....

Indeed...they would need the car for at least 5 days...this is a full custom tune specifically for this altitude. He was even willing to set it up to say let the K03s only do 15 psi max to see if we can limp them along a bit longer instead of definitely killing them in a month or two (I already hear the police siren song of death when its cold in the mornings coming from the K03s).

Now, taking that into account...$800 now for K03 tune, full custom, EGT delete, and then another $300 when I go K04 for another complete remap, does not sound bad in my book...considering those damn EGT sensors are $500 alone in parts, this makes WAY more sense to me.

Dr. Jekyll, my thoughts exactly. I was more than a little surprised that a stock gas powered car came with EGT sensors.

I will report back in a couple of weeks once I have my newly Altituned car in my hands, want them to tune it with the new cat back on the car...need to get that installed.

[mholme]

The only thing we have been thru is you saying it's not going to work! Have you tried?

Why would I try something like this? You want to do this because you have a broken EGT sensor and for some reason, you are either scared or don't know how to pull an engine is my guess.

I have heard your opinion now, so could you explaination WHY it's not going to work?

Maybe you could "make it work", but will it be reliable? Will you have to add all kinds of resistors and diodes to make it see a happy voltage? I don't know, I'm not an electrical engineer. But like I said in your other thread, it would be far easier in the long run to fix it correctly by pulling the engine if you have to (Can you take a picture of what you're actually dealing with here?). You'll fool around with your wiring and ECU when it's pretty clear you don't know enough about them, but you won't turn nuts and bolts? That's just silly.

If you decide to sell your car down the road and someone sees a jacked up EGT sensor and half assed wiring, I guarantee you have just depreciated the value of a car with a HUGE depreciation anyway, tenfold.

[Caddy7]

mholme, this is why I want to do it:

A few moths ago I installed K04's and I have a fueling kit that I can't get to boost properly. I later got the EGT code, bought a new sensor but while removing the old sensor it got stuck on the threads, it turns but is not comming out. So either I Jerry rig it or pull the engine and replace/repair the manifold...

I am in escrow for my 1st house and it will need my full attention for the months to come so a weekend to do engine pull is not going to happen in the near future.

After all time and $ invested I really want to feel the stage 3 power so I'm in a situation that I would do a quick/temporary fix it if it works. Later when the tranny starts to slip I will pull the engine and replace the manifold when I rebuild the tip.

[mholme]

mholme, this is why I want to do it:

A few moths ago I installed K04's and I have a fueling kit that I can't get to boost properly. I later got the EGT code, bought a new sensor but while removing the old sensor it got stuck on the threads, it turns but is not comming out. So either I Jerry rig it or pull the engine and replace/repair the manifold...

I am in escrow for my 1st house and it will need my full attention for the months to come so a weekend to do engine pull is not going to happen in the near future.

After all time and $ invested I really want to feel the stage 3 power so I'm in a situation that I would do a quick/temporary fix it if it works. Later when the tranny starts to slip I will pull the engine and replace the manifold when I rebuild the tip.

Alright, that's fair enough, but I'd still do it once and do it right. Spending time on something that may or may not work, that there is no documented technique/success on seems like a waste of time in itself to me. It's like that resistor mod on the rear O2 sensors. Many have tried, many have failed. Did you pull the engine yourself for the K04's? You're already one up if you did. Get it done in a day. And that seems like something you may just have to work on to get it out, without pulling the engine.

[SciroccoTDI]

Great discussion here, and I really have loved the input from everyone.

I am going with the Alitune from Avalon. My SSAC cat back goes on this Sat the 23rd, car goes to Avalon on Monday the 25th with expected delivery of new custom tuned (K03s limited by my request to 15psi to try and limp them for a bit), EGT deleted car on Sat the 30th. I will let you know my impressions on Sat morning the 30th (but I expect to be wearing a shit eating grin after my ride home) :D

[SciroccoTDI]

<------See my avatar for shit eating grin.

Best decision I've made on this car, $800 for the full custom tune and EGT delete, and runs killer, only thing that was marginal and had to be replaced was the N75 valve, the stock bypass valves are working perfectly and no more EGT codes. I highly recommend Avalon and their "Altitune" product, car drives like a gentle sleeping giant under light throttle, and turns into quite the rocket once you lay into it. Yes, I know I am speeding up the death of my K03s but I am certainly happy at this point and will never be replacing those EGT sensors.