cayenne brake upgrade ???? what rotors????

[infinkc]

found these rotors cheap
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/MERCE...Q5fAccessories

180 with free shipping - 8% bing (14.40) - ebay cb (3.60) = $162pr shipped great price for some x drilled rotors with a 2yr warranty.

[Raacerx]

Some people have asked me about adapting the 4 piston rears. I decided I'd include a copy of what I told the last person who asked. This is my experience with trying to adapt the rear 4 pistons, and then abandoning the whole project for the reasons listed below.


Yes the rears can be adapted to work. However, it is a very significant amount of work. There are also some issues, which I will try to explain (this is just my opinion and experience with tracking and driving).

Lets say, for the sake of argument, that there is no issue modifying the 4 piston rear calipers onto our cars. So, stock, you S4 comes with a 2 piston front brake with a 321mm rotor, and a single piston rear brake with 252mm rotor. By upgrading to a 6 piston front brake with 330mm rotor, you are obviously increasing the leverage ratio, and also the clamping force. You are also gaining significant pad contact area, as well as the increased strength and modulation of 6 opposed pistons. Without upgrading the rear, you are messing up the brake balance of the car. Truthfully, the balance is pretty good stock already, primarily because our cars are VERY VERY front heavy pigs. The engine hands entirely in front of the front axle, therefore giving it horrible weight distribution.

Stock weight distribution is around 56/44, hence why we have considerably larger front brakes instead of rears. A car such as a BMW 3 series or Porsche has near 50/50 weight distribution, so while the majority of braking is still done up front, for a proper balance, the BMW and Porsche needs to have fairly powerful and large rear brakes.

So yes, when you upgrade our front brakes, you of course want to balance it out. A 300mm rotor and the stock single piston caliper is absolutely perfect for a 330 or 350mm front 6 piston setup. With the 350mm setup, MAYBE MAYBE you move to a 325mm rear depending on if you like to trail brake or anything (personally think it is excessive, depending on the pad compounds you are running and what you are trying to do).

Now imagine what the braking bias would be like, if you had the 330mm 6 piston front, with a 300mm 4 piston rear? You are not only adding 2" of additional leverage and rotor diameter over stock, but your adding 3 more pistons (2 of which are opposed, which makes a huge difference on its own). Also, the caliper is far stiffer then the OEM Lucas, and therefore more of the brake force is distributed to the pistons and rotor, rather then gonig into spreading the caliper open. This is going to throw everything off. Your car will have 60% of its weight up front, but your brakes are acting like you only have 50% weight up front.

Essentially, to maintain a proper brake balance, you are going to need to run a 365mm or 380mm front setup. Your other choice is to run different pad compounds. This leads me to my next point. I run 330mm 6 piston fronts and snigle piston 300mm rears, and despite this, I still run a less aggressive pad in the rear. However, this runs into a problem if this are not matched well, because you will potentially wear one compound out more then the other. The ideal point is where the different wear rates of the different compounds, is partially evened out due to the fact that there is simply more braking up front.

Ok, sorry for the rant. But that all doesnt really matter IMO because the work required to get the calipers on there is substantial. Aside from the very very limited space you have to work with, and the need for a custom stepped adapter (depending on which rotor you use), the E-Brake is the big problem. We use an external e-brake integrated into our single piston caliper. There is no high performance 2 or 4 piston rear brake that has an external e-brake. 90% of all rear performance brakes use an internal e-brake that is part of the hub/rotor rather then the caliper itself.

This leaves you with a dilemma... For some people, maybe an e-brake isn't necessary. Its an absolute necessity for me. For a track car, you never want to use the e-brake anyways so it doesnt matter. So your left with either trying to fit an additional e-brake caliper onto the same rotor (remember lack of space), or your left trying to fabricate some type of custom deal, such as attaching a rotor to yuor driveshaft flange or something like that or getting a custom e-brake that uses the hydaulic fluid (dont like this, cause what if you bust a hydraulic line?) Its called the emergency brake for a reason.

My suggestion? Invest in some 2 piece rotors and nice pads. The 4 piston upgrade is entirely aesthetic on our cars, unless you are able to adjust the braking bias internally or spend a long time getting everything to balance correctly with rotor sizes and pad compounds. Just moving from a 250mm rear rotor to 300mm rotor made a difference for me.

PS. The B7 RS4 uses 365mm 8 piston front brakes, with a 325mm single piston rear (yes, same exact single piston caliper we use). Even with a 365mm front and 8 pistons, and even with more weight then our car, the RS4 still only uses a single piston rear.
Good luck.

[infinkc]

Thought id post this, these are Euro Cayenne 330mm calipers, very different color than the normal brembos out there, they are a gunmetal color.

[99s4avant]

these are calipers from Touareg,practically same as Q7 and cayenne,just different color...

[xola3que]

Speaking of the rear BBK, may be I should post up my little project. Long time lurker, not much a poster...lol. Anyway I upgraded my front into 6 pots Cayenne few months ago, Felt the real urge for the rear upgrade too so now the 4 pots rear is finally in, *w/ much headache.*

I started w/ my MKV, and moving on to the B5 next. The result, w/o saying, is absolutely balanced braking and amazing clamping power. No more tail swings, baby.

Spec:
1. 330x26mm rear rotors
2. Cayenne 4 pots rear
3. CAD/CAM designed, CNC 6061 aluminum custom brackets
4. Brembo parking/e-brake calipers

Hand brakes fully functional.

[NOTORIOUS VR]

That's nice! Have you found what rotor can be used on the B5's for that kind of setup?

Also, how much does that e-brake caliper run approx? Any pics from behind (regards to mounting)?

[spa]

What Notorious said and once you get your B5 rear 4 piston sorted, let us know I am sure you could sell some brackets!!

this is pretty awesome!

[ski&drive]

how much did it cost to cnc just two brackets

[awd2ks4]

Very nice now do the b5

[xola3que]

That's nice! Have you found what rotor can be used on the B5's for that kind of setup?

Also, how much does that e-brake caliper run approx? Any pics from behind (regards to mounting)?

The e-brake caliper runs from $200 used to $1000 new.
I will try to take some pic from behind (no pun intended,) but I don't think it will help much since the B5 knuckle are all different from the MKv platform.

What Notorious said and once you get your B5 rear 4 piston sorted, let us know I am sure you could sell some brackets!!

this is pretty awesome!

Thanks, I'm in the middle of designing the B5 rear brackets. Looking for someone local to do independent testing. I'm in NJ 07927

how much did it cost to cnc just two brackets

Just two brackets? it will be crazily expensive. Most shop have the minimum order since it's very laborious and time consumed to set up the machine just to do two.

[Raacerx]

Thats very very sexy xola3que!!! I'd be very pleased to see your design for the B5, and be interested in grabbing a set as well and helping the costs for yourself. But I'll be impressed at the same time, since space is hard to find. Obviously its been done before, but itll be a nice piece of machine work. If I were you, I'd run a less aggressive pad in the rear, unless you are running 365+mm fronts.

[tgiblin]

xola3que I pm'd you

[xola3que]

Thats very very sexy xola3que!!! I'd be very pleased to see your design for the B5, and be interested in grabbing a set as well and helping the costs for yourself. But I'll be impressed at the same time, since space is hard to find. Obviously its been done before, but itll be a nice piece of machine work. If I were you, I'd run a less aggressive pad in the rear, unless you are running 365+mm fronts.

Thank you.
Right now I'm still running on Brembo stock pads and, beside the freaking dust, I like it. I've got to say I'm very pleased w/ the result. It's just the right amount of grip and you can actually feel the car stopping very balancely. Completely different from what I had before, even w/R32 310mm stock brake.

[Cadiburns]

So what is the best option for 350mm rotors? ML55 rotors with the center bore machined a bit larger? Will ML63 rotors fit? How about S5 rotors?

Calipers showed up today.....just need to finalize rotor choice. These things are huge!

[Dan@JHM]

JHM 350mm Cayenne Rotors of course...



http://www.jhmotorsports.com/shop/ca...42c02e91a7289e

[GarbatyA4]

LOL @ 750USD for a pair of rotors.

[Dan@JHM]

LOL @ 750USD for a pair of rotors.

Find a pair of 2 piece lightweight rotors specifically made for this set up for less.

[GarbatyA4]

Find a pair of 2 piece lightweight rotors specifically made for this set up for less.

I would love too... Don't take it the wrong way... I just can't afford that :(

[GramCracker]

LOL @ 750USD for a pair of rotors.

LOL ur in teh wrong sektion

JHM, I just saw those rotors on AudiSports car and they look fantastic. Great job

[DUX-men]

C32 rotor installed on passenger side spindle with driver side caliper (already flipped):

As read this theme
http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...Cayenne)/page5

But I all the same have not understood, what to take disks that have approached on a start and have got into a support?!

330мм from MB С230 2005y.?
And as 345мм from S4\B6?!

[jeproks]

02 ML55 345mm rotors or Audi S5 345mm rotors with shims between the rotor and hub to center the rotor.

[manhertm]

So what was the deal with the OEM Porsche mounting hardware? Has anybody tried this?

[jaybquick@JHM]

UPDATE with JHM 9-6-10. Since we have had the 350mm rotors and kit for quite a while we are looking to expand our BBK line. Namely due to all your feedback and requests we are now working on rotors for the shorter Cayenne (Black V6) caliper than will use a 330mm rotor and will fit under 17" wheels. Toureg calipers that came with the 330mm rotor will work as well. Look for a release soon.

[A4Rob]

UPDATE with JHM 9-6-10. Since we have had the 350mm rotors and kit for quite a while we are looking to expand our BBK line. Namely due to all your feedback and requests we are now working on rotors for the shorter Cayenne (Black V6) caliper than will use a 330mm rotor and will fit under 17" wheels. Toureg calipers that came with the 330mm rotor will work as well. Look for a release soon.

That is great news!

[OscarMeyer]

UPDATE with JHM 9-6-10. Since we have had the 350mm rotors and kit for quite a while we are looking to expand our BBK line. Namely due to all your feedback and requests we are now working on rotors for the shorter Cayenne (Black V6) caliper than will use a 330mm rotor and will fit under 17" wheels. Toureg calipers that came with the 330mm rotor will work as well. Look for a release soon.

Thought id bump this thread up and see if there was any other info on the 330mm rotors? Im very interested, i have xola3que rear brake upgrade for the 312mm, i havent installed yet but its an amazing piece of work!

[Trail Boss S4]

go with rs6

[jaybquick@JHM]

Rotors, hardware, brake lines and a full kit now available with 330mm rotors that clear 17" wheels. Thanks to some of the people in this thread contacting us, because of you we got this kit to market and can sell you all the individual parts as well.

CURRENTLY ON PRE SALE AS OF 10-18-10. WILL BEGIN SHIPPING IN 3 to 5 weeks from this date.

See the complete kit here: http://jhmotorsports.com/shop/catalo...-s4-p-677.html

DIY'ers, get just the rotors here: http://jhmotorsports.com/shop/catalo...-s4-p-679.html

FINALLY a low cost front BBK (Big Brake kit) solution for your B5 S4 that uses the popular Porsche Cayenne caliper (6-piston Brembo) while clearing OEM 17" wheels and most aftermarket 17" wheels as well. We even keep your pad sensors!

Why the Porsche Cayenne caliper? With its 6-piston design and MASSIVE brake pads it is a strong performer. Also it bolts right up to your spindles with NO brackets. All you need is some bolts, nuts, brake lines and JHM rotors and you have a 330mm BBK. Being that it is an OEM part they are readily available and can be found used for great prices.

Stock 321mm vs. JHM 330mm 2-piece for the Porsche Cayenne Caliper
-Rotor OD: Stock = 321mm(12.6"), JHM = 330mm(13") - .4" larger
-Rotor Thickness: Stock = 30mm(1.18"), JHM = 32mm(1.26") - thicker
-Rotor Weight: Stock = 21lbs(each), JHM = 19.5lbs(each) - 7% LIGHTER, 1.5lbs less each
-Rotor Cooling Air-gap: Stock = 11mm(.433"), JHM = 15.5mm(.610") - LARGER for better cooling
-Rotor Cooling Center Fin Design: Stock = Straight Fin, JHM = Airfoil - MORE EFFICIENT for better cooling
-Bolt pattern: - SAME (fits like an OEM rotor would)

The complete kit INCLUDES:
2 - JHM 2-piece Lightweight Slotted Front Rotors (330mm x 32mm)
2 - Black BRAND NEW OEM Porsche Cayenne(6-piston Brembo) Calipers (lines and bleeder screws swapped from end to end by JHM for proper performance on an Audi)
2 - Stainless DOT approved Brake Lines
1 - Set OEM Pagid Pads or Hawk Performance Pads (select option)
2 - OEM Cayenne Brake Pad sensors (they work by only splicing 2 wires)
1 - Liter Pentosin DOT 4 Synthetic Brake Fluid and all bolts and hardware to mount the calipers with JHM exclusive 16mm to 14mm stainless bushings to snuggly fit the caliper.
DOWNLOAD INSTRUCTION ZIP FILE BELOW WITH PICTURES AND NOTES (not sent with kit)

Outer ring specs:
We worked closely with a race brake manufacturer that supplies many NASCAR racers and a couple major brake kit companies. Due to their expertise we chose to have them build us the outer rings to our specs to fit the B5 S4 with a Cayenne caliper bolted on. 12 attachment points for durability and strength.

Center hat specs:
We CNC machine the Aluminum center hats in house based on their recommended materials and thicknesses for durability. 12 attachment points for durability and strength. We also engrave JHM in them in 3 locations equal from each other, it looks clean and doesn't jump out or look tacky.



Installation and other notes here: http://jhmotorsports.com/products/do...s_and_Pics.zip

Note - This brake upgrade only fits under 17" wheels or larger. It fits stock 17" B5 S4 wheels with NO wheel spacer and most other OEM and aftermarket wheels as well.


See the complete kit here: http://jhmotorsports.com/shop/catalo...-s4-p-677.html

DIY'ers, get just the rotors here: http://jhmotorsports.com/shop/catalo...-s4-p-679.html

See our complete range of pad options, hardware and brake hoses for DIYers here: http://jhmotorsports.com/shop/catalo...0_119_122.html

Thanks guys.

[jaybquick@JHM]

Thought id post this, these are Euro Cayenne 330mm calipers, very different color than the normal brembos out there, they are a gunmetal color.

The gunmetal / black calipers are from the standard V6 models with a 330mm rotor. Seen above in our kit. We have them here in the states. The Silver and Red ones are from the S and Turbo S models with a 350mm rotor.

[S_four]

For those looking for 330mm rotors. I came across something interesting. The 2007-current S6 has 330mm rear vented rotors. Same hub size. Bolt pattern. Only thing is I cant find any aftermarket rotors (slotted, drilled). Another thing that I am unsure of is the thickness. It is only 22mm, I believe.

Can someone chime in? We all know it's all about the girth but does it really matter for this application?

[034Motorsport]

For those looking for 330mm rotors. I came across something interesting. The 2007-current S6 has 330mm rear vented rotors. Same hub size. Bolt pattern. Only thing is I cant find any aftermarket rotors (slotted, drilled). Another thing that I am unsure of is the thickness. It is only 22mm, I believe.

Can someone chime in? We all know it's all about the girth but does it really matter for this application?

You'll pop the pistons right out... The Cayenne/Touareg 330mm calipers are made for 30mm rotors; running a 22mm would not be possible. It is ok to run a rotor 2mm or so thinner then the intended size, but certainly not 8mm.

You'd also overheat a 22mm rotor on the front in no time.

Stick to the JHM rotors; they are way lighter, perform better, and won't warp as easily as running the stock Benz.

[topquarkpc]

lets get them brackets built!
i want a set. got me the calipers already so all i need is the brackets & e-brake solution.
thx!

[Militant-Grunt]

Ive been using the C230 rotors on a few cars now, haven't had any issues with them. And for the cost of these, you can run and destroy 3 sets before you get up to the price of JHM rotors. Got to enlarge the lug bore size by a little bit and the center bore size by .014th's.

[golfrsi]

set of new, old stock 345mm Brembo ML55 rotors in the classifieds if anyone is interested. For use with the larger 18Z caliper.

[NOTORIOUS VR]

set of new, old stock 345mm Brembo ML55 rotors in the classifieds if anyone is interested. For use with the larger 18Z caliper.

that's what I run... works like a charm...

[spokismB5S4]

Some people have asked me about adapting the 4 piston rears. I decided I'd include a copy of what I told the last person who asked. This is my experience with trying to adapt the rear 4 pistons, and then abandoning the whole project for the reasons listed below.


Yes the rears can be adapted to work. However, it is a very significant amount of work. There are also some issues, which I will try to explain (this is just my opinion and experience with tracking and driving).

Lets say, for the sake of argument, that there is no issue modifying the 4 piston rear calipers onto our cars. So, stock, you S4 comes with a 2 piston front brake with a 321mm rotor, and a single piston rear brake with 252mm rotor. By upgrading to a 6 piston front brake with 330mm rotor, you are obviously increasing the leverage ratio, and also the clamping force. You are also gaining significant pad contact area, as well as the increased strength and modulation of 6 opposed pistons. Without upgrading the rear, you are messing up the brake balance of the car. Truthfully, the balance is pretty good stock already, primarily because our cars are VERY VERY front heavy pigs. The engine hands entirely in front of the front axle, therefore giving it horrible weight distribution.

Stock weight distribution is around 56/44, hence why we have considerably larger front brakes instead of rears. A car such as a BMW 3 series or Porsche has near 50/50 weight distribution, so while the majority of braking is still done up front, for a proper balance, the BMW and Porsche needs to have fairly powerful and large rear brakes.

So yes, when you upgrade our front brakes, you of course want to balance it out. A 300mm rotor and the stock single piston caliper is absolutely perfect for a 330 or 350mm front 6 piston setup. With the 350mm setup, MAYBE MAYBE you move to a 325mm rear depending on if you like to trail brake or anything (personally think it is excessive, depending on the pad compounds you are running and what you are trying to do).

Now imagine what the braking bias would be like, if you had the 330mm 6 piston front, with a 300mm 4 piston rear? You are not only adding 2" of additional leverage and rotor diameter over stock, but your adding 3 more pistons (2 of which are opposed, which makes a huge difference on its own). Also, the caliper is far stiffer then the OEM Lucas, and therefore more of the brake force is distributed to the pistons and rotor, rather then gonig into spreading the caliper open. This is going to throw everything off. Your car will have 60% of its weight up front, but your brakes are acting like you only have 50% weight up front.

Essentially, to maintain a proper brake balance, you are going to need to run a 365mm or 380mm front setup. Your other choice is to run different pad compounds. This leads me to my next point. I run 330mm 6 piston fronts and snigle piston 300mm rears, and despite this, I still run a less aggressive pad in the rear. However, this runs into a problem if this are not matched well, because you will potentially wear one compound out more then the other. The ideal point is where the different wear rates of the different compounds, is partially evened out due to the fact that there is simply more braking up front.

Ok, sorry for the rant. But that all doesnt really matter IMO because the work required to get the calipers on there is substantial. Aside from the very very limited space you have to work with, and the need for a custom stepped adapter (depending on which rotor you use), the E-Brake is the big problem. We use an external e-brake integrated into our single piston caliper. There is no high performance 2 or 4 piston rear brake that has an external e-brake. 90% of all rear performance brakes use an internal e-brake that is part of the hub/rotor rather then the caliper itself.

This leaves you with a dilemma... For some people, maybe an e-brake isn't necessary. Its an absolute necessity for me. For a track car, you never want to use the e-brake anyways so it doesnt matter. So your left with either trying to fit an additional e-brake caliper onto the same rotor (remember lack of space), or your left trying to fabricate some type of custom deal, such as attaching a rotor to yuor driveshaft flange or something like that or getting a custom e-brake that uses the hydaulic fluid (dont like this, cause what if you bust a hydraulic line?) Its called the emergency brake for a reason.

My suggestion? Invest in some 2 piece rotors and nice pads. The 4 piston upgrade is entirely aesthetic on our cars, unless you are able to adjust the braking bias internally or spend a long time getting everything to balance correctly with rotor sizes and pad compounds. Just moving from a 250mm rear rotor to 300mm rotor made a difference for me.

PS. The B7 RS4 uses 365mm 8 piston front brakes, with a 325mm single piston rear (yes, same exact single piston caliper we use). Even with a 365mm front and 8 pistons, and even with more weight then our car, the RS4 still only uses a single piston rear.
Good luck.

[witwer4444]

For those interested. I have been looking through these threads and dont think that the caliper part numbers were that clear so here they are.

THESE ARE FOR THE 17Z 330MM CALIPERS ONLY

17Z Cayenne
Driver 955 351 421 32
Passenger 955 351 422 33

17Z Touareg
Driver 7L6 615 123 T
Passenger 7L6 615 124 H

17Z Audi Q7
Driver 7L6 615 149
Passenger 7L6 615 150

[patrick23]

i'd like to give thanks to this thread and all it's wonderful info- did mine about a month ago - loving them

[witwer4444]

^^ what rotors are you running?

[patrick23]

my setup:

18Z calipers
stoptech ss B7 Rs4 lines
ml55 amg Brembo Drilled rotors

[witwer4444]

Looks great, wish I had the money for the 18Z Mod!