E39 M5 or Audi S4

[momomo]

Hello,

I am currently debating if I should buy a used E39 M5 or a 07 S4? The cars seem to be performing very similar to each other , at least in terms of numbers.

But I was hoping some S4 owners can give me some insider info as why I should chosse the audi.

The obvious plus for the audi is the quatro, though I do like the bigger space in the M5.

Thanks,
Mo

[EuroB6]

if you need quattro, then get the S4..also the S4 is more up to date looking...

[SilverSurferS4]

07 s4 anyday for me atleast...

[Yaktizzle417]

Coming from a BMW enthusiast family, I'll spill the beans for ya.

First off:
The 39 M5 motor is the worst motor in BMW history. The idea is amazing and all.. dual vanos which I won't go into AND itb's. But, being based of the M62 540i motor, it's weak as hell. The aluminum block cracks under any sort of overheating. My dad's friend has an absolute GORGEOUS Intergalos e39 M5, and he wasn't paying attention to his temp gauge. Went barely past running temp, and cracked the block. Even under warranty, BMW didn't cover it. And lemme tell you, an S62 is NOT cheap.

But, once you get past the motor, you get an amazing chasis/suspension/brake setup. Minus the famous BMW brake fade, but a few minor upgrades and that'll disappear. Oh and lets not forget the famous BMW oversteer. (but who doesn't like to go sideways?) Plus the fact that it's a 5 series chassis, it's super roomy. Not to mention, the body is amazing.

The M5 is much more of a "driver's car" compared to the S4, and even though the motor is absolute garbage without being super early on expensive preventative maintenance, I'd definitely take it over any Audi four door.

But I'd rather have a turbo E36 M3 than anything else in the world, so who am I kidding?


I can't speak about the S4. BUT

It's kinda apples and oranges. The M5 is a 2WD oversteering monster, and the S4 is an AWD understeering monster. If you experience any kind of snow or severely crappy weather, get the S4. Even with crazy amazing snow tires, you won't go anywhere with it.

[ArcticV8]

Courtesy of Edmunds.com

e39 M5
Curb weight: 4,024lbs.
Horsepower: 394hp
Torque: 368 ft-lbs.

B6/B7 S4
Curb weight: 3825-3869lbs.
Horsepower: 340hp
Torque: 302 ft-lbs.

a few numbers to think about. I obviously am bias to the S4, such a great car all around IMO.

[momomo]

Coming from a BMW enthusiast family, I'll spill the beans for ya.

First off:
The 39 M5 motor is the worst motor in BMW history. The idea is amazing and all.. dual vanos which I won't go into AND itb's. But, being based of the M62 540i motor, it's weak as hell. The aluminum block cracks under any sort of overheating. My dad's friend has an absolute GORGEOUS Intergalos e39 M5, and he wasn't paying attention to his temp gauge. Went barely past running temp, and cracked the block. Even under warranty, BMW didn't cover it. And lemme tell you, an S62 is NOT cheap.

But, once you get past the motor, you get an amazing chasis/suspension/brake setup. Minus the famous BMW brake fade, but a few minor upgrades and that'll disappear. Oh and lets not forget the famous BMW oversteer. (but who doesn't like to go sideways?) Plus the fact that it's a 5 series chassis, it's super roomy. Not to mention, the body is amazing.

The M5 is much more of a "driver's car" compared to the S4, and even though the motor is absolute garbage without being super early on expensive preventative maintenance, I'd definitely take it over any Audi four door.

But I'd rather have a turbo E36 M3 than anything else in the world, so who am I kidding?


I can't speak about the S4. BUT

It's kinda apples and oranges. The M5 is a 2WD oversteering monster, and the S4 is an AWD understeering monster. If you experience any kind of snow or severely crappy weather, get the S4. Even with crazy amazing snow tires, you won't go anywhere with it.

Thanks for the elaborate response, but I gotta tell you you got me confused evven more not sure if you were talking against or for the M5.

Any thoughts on the steering, Audis are always criticized for having a numb steeting vs the heavier steering of the BMW.

Cheers,
Mo

[zachf88]

Coming from a BMW enthusiast family, I'll spill the beans for ya.

First off:
The 39 M5 motor is the worst motor in BMW history. The idea is amazing and all.. dual vanos which I won't go into AND itb's. But, being based of the M62 540i motor, it's weak as hell. The aluminum block cracks under any sort of overheating. My dad's friend has an absolute GORGEOUS Intergalos e39 M5, and he wasn't paying attention to his temp gauge. Went barely past running temp, and cracked the block. Even under warranty, BMW didn't cover it. And lemme tell you, an S62 is NOT cheap.

But, once you get past the motor, you get an amazing chasis/suspension/brake setup. Minus the famous BMW brake fade, but a few minor upgrades and that'll disappear. Oh and lets not forget the famous BMW oversteer. (but who doesn't like to go sideways?) Plus the fact that it's a 5 series chassis, it's super roomy. Not to mention, the body is amazing.

The M5 is much more of a "driver's car" compared to the S4, and even though the motor is absolute garbage without being super early on expensive preventative maintenance, I'd definitely take it over any Audi four door.

But I'd rather have a turbo E36 M3 than anything else in the world, so who am I kidding?


I can't speak about the S4. BUT

It's kinda apples and oranges. The M5 is a 2WD oversteering monster, and the S4 is an AWD understeering monster. If you experience any kind of snow or severely crappy weather, get the S4. Even with crazy amazing snow tires, you won't go anywhere with it.

My brother just sold his beloved white 2003 M5.... The car was low millage, and very well taken care of. It was never driven very hard, but my brother was entering a freeway and all of a sudden, POOF!! Engine blew!! He had nothing but problems with the car (water-pump was rusted even though BMW coolant had "rustproofing" chemical in it... bull!! Always use distilled water mix) Get a car with a warranty.... not one that's way out of warranty.....

[ngng]

My brother just sold his beloved white 2003 M5.... The car was low millage, and very well taken care of. It was never driven very hard, but my brother was entering a freeway and all of a sudden, POOF!! Engine blew!! He had nothing but problems with the car (water-pump was rusted even though BMW coolant had "rustproofing" chemical in it... bull!! Always use distilled water mix) Get a car with a warranty.... not one that's way out of warranty.....

now i don't understand that, why buy a M5...and dont drive it hard?? :(

[Yaktizzle417]

now i don't understand that, why buy a M5...and dont drive it hard?? :(

Because you can't. The motor is a POS.

OP: I'm just giving you the facts. I'd totally drive one, they're gorgeous cars and BMW has proven themselves again on their ability to make a car for the driver.

I'd buy one, and swap a turbo'd S54 (E46 M3 motor) into it. Strong, much more powerful, and very unique.

If you do get the M5, get a warranty, and make sure the car is a total CREAMPUFF.

[ZEUSROTTY]

Get the S4... Dont ask any more questions... exhaust, reflash, intake and it is a whole new car.

[ginkof]

Get the S4... Dont ask any more questions... exhaust, reflash, intake and it is a whole new car.

add swaybars to that list......for a mere $400 H sport Swaybars are the single best mod for the money.... I have the RS4 sways on my car.. and with the stiffer setting the back, my car wants to over steer at 40 mphish on certain corners. i am still beyond surprised considering its an audi!

[momomo]

I really don't understand why people always call the bmw more of a driver's car. Is it the numb steering of the audi's or the fact that the quattro has generaly more grip and thus safer?

Looks to me that the S4 is a much of a driver's car.

[zachf88]

now i don't understand that, why buy a M5...and dont drive it hard?? :(

he drove it hard, but very rarely.... It was never tracked.... Reason why it wasn't driven hard, because my brother and I are car enthusiasts and we take pride of the condition of our cars and we aren't going to run them down to the ground just because "it's a fast, sporty car!"

[wwb4]

When I bought my B6 S4.........I was considering and shopping either the E39 M5 or a B6 S4. As a previous poster mentioned, if you have any inclement weather, in your area, and plan to use the auto as a daily driver, get a S4.......period. I have a E39 540iA Sport/M Package......and with roughly 100hp my car doesn't move in the snowy/icey weather.......one can only imagine how a E39 M5 would drive in bad weather.

To address several other things mentioned by previous posters.....in my experience....yes regular Audi steering is very light....and at times tends to be a very non-connected drive/feel when compared with that of it's BMW counterparts....however it's a different story with the S4/RS4 with a much more connected feel throughout the steering. Moving on to brakes, in my experience stock Audi brakes are not as good as of BMWs, even when comparing my stock B6 S4 brakes with that of my stock E39 540iA Sport/M Package........the stopping in my E39 is absolutely incredible with no modification....while my B6 S4 brakes are good, my E39's in stock set-up are better. As for handling, my 540iA in stock set-up outhandles my B6 S4 all day with no modifications from the factory. Now I used and referenced my 540iA Sport/M Package because it's the basis for the E39 M5 with many of the components being similar and/or identical. So with this kind of performance from my 540iA, one can imagine the performance of the E39 M5. Now moving onto the bad, like one poster mentioned of their brother's engine blowing up. If looking for at a E39/M5 be wary of their cooling systems because they tend to go bad and bad often with no reason and/or warning. Like another previous poster mentioned the S62 motor is a very expensive motor to work on so make sure if you select a M5....or even a S4 for that case you get one with a warranty.

Now moving on.....obviously I chose a B6 S4 as I currently have one in my garage......I chose a S4 because I live in the DC metro area and we do get occasional bad weather and I wanted to be able to drive in it with fewer things to worry about........IMO the B6 S4s are more exclusive (at least from my experience in my area).......the E39 M5 was/is a much more outdated look with it debuting in '96 in Europe and '97 in the US.......when searching and comparing cars many of the E39 M5s were without warranty, and those that did have a warranty on average were $7k-$11k+ more than a comparable S4 and had considerably more miles.

What it all comes down to regardless of which car you choose is to make sure that you get a warranty and have a thorough PPI done before your purchase. Make sure to keep us posted on what you choose!!!

[Stevelev]

... If you experience any kind of snow or severely crappy weather, get the S4. Even with crazy amazing snow tires, you won't go anywhere with it.

2nd this - with first hand experience ! Also, I feel that my steering is only numb at parking lot speeds

[SoCalRS4]

id take E39 M5 Anyday of the week over an S4, faster, handles better, more fun, more mods available,

[Tiesto]

id take E39 M5 Anyday of the week over an S4, faster, handles better, more fun, more mods available,

It kills me that as Audi owners as soon as we hear the word BMW, all other factor considerations besides performance fly straight out the window. But the M5 is damn nice.

[SoCalRS4]

Im sorry but I have an RS4 and I am extremely unhappy with the performance of the car, im talking stock vs stock, RS4 with modifications is just unreal car to drive, but I had an E46 M3 with Competition Package, and that car was just insane stock, I really couldn't complain about anything, my rs4 though, i don't like the nose diving on braking, its to heavy, just a lot of things, but looks wise I love the RS4. I just think that the RS4 could have been pushed a little farther if that makes sense. Not a hater I mean i love audis and always will but just a bit disappointed I guess.

[momomo]

id take E39 M5 Anyday of the week over an S4, faster, handles better, more fun, more mods available,

Is it really faster than the S4? And also what do you mean by handles better, could you elaborate on that?

I watched the top gear comparo between the e46 m3 and the b6 s4 and the s4 was faster around the track on dry pavement.

So when people say the bmw handles better I would like to understand how that is.

Cheers,
mo

[LampyB]

id take E39 M5 Anyday of the week over an S4, faster, handles better, more fun, more mods available,

coming from a driver in SoCal where the weather is always perfect...ok...for someone in Seattle battling frequently poor weather i'd skip the bmw and go audi any day. quattro is an amazing feature and the growling s4 v8 will please anyone. IMO the 2007 S4 is stunning in comparison to an older M5....I also wouldn't EVER purchase a bmw outside of warranty. I used to have a '95 325i that was well cared for and at 130K i had to replace the entire engine...not to mention spending an additional several thousand just on maintenance!

[Audi05s4]

it all just depends wat you need the car for

[BR_RS4]

Having owned both these cars, I would go with the S4 for a few reasons - Personally I think the E39 is starting to look a bit dated, that and you definitely want either car covered by warranty. The S4 will be easier to find in that respect. Go call the dealer and ask what a spark plug or oil change runs on either of these two cars and you'll see what I mean.

From a practical standpoint the M5 has more room and a bit more lux feel to the interior. The S4 is smaller, less decked out. However, I much preferred driving the S4 on a daily basis. The M5 was more of a big sedan and felt that way. Granted, it was rock solid and smooth as glass at high speeds but the S4 feels way more responsive and agile.

The shift throws in the M5 are also very mushy and long. That's one area I always hated, it was a chore to drive in traffic. Felt big, shifted big. At high speeds however, the S4 does feel very nervous in comparison.

Powerwise , the extra Hp/Tq is one area the S4 didn't have on the M5. The M simply pulls harder on flat out acceleration. I still found I preferred the S4 power even though it didn't have quite the punch of the M5 - it was such a high reving engine it was a joy to redline and makes all kinds of great mechanical noises. You just never seem to run out of Rev's with the 4.2. The M5 engine is also pretty tempermental, the MAF sensors almost always go bad by 40K mi and O2 sensors by 60K, all which can really kill power output.

For real world driving I prefer AWD, and I've never wanted to go back to RWD, having driven RWD performance cars for over 20 years. If you want to talk track and paper stats that's one thing but on a daily basis I found I could push the S4 way harder around town than I could the M5. Getting the big sedan sideways on a track may be fun but not on city streets. With the AWD, you can really lay into the throttle in a turn and it simply wont break loose on you, it feels so confident of a car in that respect.

Although I didn't end up modding my S4, it has a bit of room to work with. Downpipes, CAI, Cat-back, Chip will really give the motor some punch. Just be sure your local dealer is mod friendly in case you ever need warranty work done.

Good luck with your decison, they are both great cars!

[bakos4]

Is it really faster than the S4?

I believe so. I think I have seen videos where it pulls on an RS4

[zachf88]

The RS4 has the e39 M5 until 45mph, then it's even all the way to 155......

[Auditude2.0T]

Honestly the S4 is the superior car in this comparison. I hate when people say that BMW is the drivers car, Audi's out handle BMW's, in the straights the Audi is faster unless the guy in the BMW knows how to launch a RWD car correctly. I have an A4 With H&R Front and Rear Sway Bars, and H&R springs with some HP Tires and the car is on rails. You dont feel under steer unless you are pushing the car really hard on the track. On the BMW on the other hand every turn the car is sideways.

B5, B6, B7 S4 > E39 M5

[c4racer]

OK - I think BR_RS4 hit the nail on the head. Let me second everything he said and add a few things of my own.

I owned a E39 M5 for about 1 year - it was under CPO at the time. I dumped it when the warrantee ended and picked up a new C5 Z06 right when the C6 was coming out and they were giving them away. I sold that one a year later with 7K miles on it for $1K less than I paid for it. Ha - but that is another story!! After that I had a CTSV for about a year and that car was lemoned by GM. Then an Evo. Prior to the M5 I had a E36 M3.

Anyway - let's just say that I like drivers cars. In fact, recently when it was time to get back in the game after owning a classic muscle car for 1.5 years I was looking at 4 cars most seriously: S4, E46 M3, E39 M5 and 335i. I decided the 335i was too "vanilla" for me after borrowing a buddy's sedan for the weekend. And then I decided the M3 was out because of 2 doors - I really preferred a sedan for family and business use. So it was down to the S4 and the M5.

The S4 won for me and I've had it for 2 months now and put over 3K miles on it.

Advantages S4 for me:
- wagon format gives me more utility, which I use on a regular basis
- shifter feel is far better
- crisper handling - more agile - more "tossable" - not quite like an M3, but the S4 is a small car dimensionally which I think helps keep it agile. M5 feels way bigger, drives way bigger
- AWD - gives me snow capability - I am a skier and an AWD car saves time in my truck, which is a good thing and makes for far more enjoyable trips
- maint / reliability - newer car, less stressed and complicated motor, stronger clutch (M5's can go in 25-30K miles), and better electronics
- tire cost - M5's eat tires and they are not cheap ones either

The steering of the S4 is actually more communicative than the M5, which uses a rec. ball system NOT a rack and pinion. My only beef with the S4 is I prefer less variable rate for more consistent feel and more weight at slow speeds. The BMW is better there. But at speed, the Audi has better feedback. The M3's are better, but I also prefer the S4 steering to the E90 3 series platform too.

I cam very close to closing the deal on a 2002 LeMans Blue M5 with ~45K miles. I ended up with a 2005 S4 Avant with similar miles for about the same price, and I am very happy I went that direction. M5 is a great car, but the S4 is less risky to own from a maint / repair standpoint outside of warrantee. Plus the S4 is more agile and handles better in my view. Given it is 150lbs lighter and has AWD, plus is riding on a much shorter wheelbase that makes sense. I don't find the S4 to be an understeering car at all. And I also would not consider the M5 to be an oversteering car. It was a serious understeering pig. The S4 is actually more neutral in a stock to stock configuration. I have not tracked the S4, but I did take the M5 out to Laguna one day. It was horrible on the track. Understeered very badly and warped the hell out of the rotors too. It was such a chore to drive. An M3 around that track is such a joy. I do not for a minute expect the S4 to be like the M3 on track, but I would guess it is about half way in-between the M3 and M5 as a track car. I may never track mine - I do have a race car for that and once you go there it is pretty hard to go back to running a street car again. But as a daily driver, the S4 is the best car I've owned, and I've had some good ones. The overall package including the fit / finish and interior ergonomics and materials make it a completely wonderful car. It gives up some straight line speed to the M5, but as a daily driver it is a more pleasing car for me - and I am a real stickler when it comes to handling, shifting, steering feel, brake feel, etc.

S4 gets my vote hands down. Proven by the fact that I was facing a similar choice and that is the one I made. 3K miles into it I am even more sold on that decision than ever. Love the car.

[killintime]

Hey there...

One of my co workers, actually my manager, has an E39 M5. We go at it from time to time, he edges me out by just a hair each time.

The E39 M5 is a low 13 second car in the quarter mile, our S4 is a mid 13 second car in the quarter mile. The difference is a couple of tenths, but the M5 beats us.

What does his car have that our doesn't, that I think is better?...it's a little bit bigger, so you get more room, it has a much better resale value (our S4's have been dropping pretty regularly) and it's a tad faster.

So if those things are worth it to you, pay the extra amount and get it.

My 2 cents

[zachf88]

Umm the e39 has HORRIBLE resale value! They are only worth $30-40k now....

[Quattroownsyou]

Better have a lot of money put aside to maintain an E39 M5. Not cheap.

B7 S4 will probably give you less headaches as long as you've got some warranty.

M5 is indeed a drivers car (this means you need to know how to drive a rear wheel drive car sideways without lossing control).

Performance. M5 is a beast, although the block is weak. S4 can be made faster with downpipes, exhaust, chip (probably fast enough to stay close to the stock M5).

[killintime]

Umm the e39 has HORRIBLE resale value! They are only worth $30-40k now....

You think that's bad, I dabbled in trading my car in a month or so ago. The best I could get for it was $21k...and I have an '04 B6 S4 that's in perfect condition (50k+ miles).

I'd love to get $30-$40k!!!

[zachf88]

well, whats kelley blue book on your car??

[S4J]

The interior of my friends E39 (52k miles) M5 is totally falling apart! Storage lids breaking (yeah I know we have that too), rear passenger door handle broken, 3 window regulators burned out in 1.5 year period, AC and radio buttons broken off, leather and carpet looks like “total� crap, steering wheel and door pulled look ancient, seat motor on drivers side intermittent, various trim pieces loose or broken or both and a bunch more things i don't feel kie recalling. The car has aged so poorly you’d think was a rental, but it’s a two owner car and he’s an anal bastage like you’d expect any M5 owner to be. This may be an extreme example, but it futher shows the quality of BMW vs Audi interior quality. I get in my car and I say, “Aaahhhhh…..� Oh, and I didn’t even touch on the exterior and engine woes.

[Logic006]

I have both cars, an 07 S4 MT and a 2001 BMW M5 with very low miles. Hands down the M5 is a much nicer car. The finish, the ride and the list goes on. The entire interior is covered in leather like dash etc. Even the pillars and roof on the inside are covered in suede very little plastic unlike the audi. Driving the M5 is a lot more fun. The car handles like small sports car and the overstear is great. As far as maintenance I have had no problems with the 5. I plan on keeping the 5 for a very long time as far as the audi its a great car, its my daily driver, but not as exciting to drive as the M5. By the way if you live anywhere where it snows the M5 is useless. Even with snow tires its tricky to keep it on the road.

[c4racer]

You think that's bad, I dabbled in trading my car in a month or so ago. The best I could get for it was $21k...and I have an '04 B6 S4 that's in perfect condition (50k+ miles).

I'd love to get $30-$40k!!!

Well - it is a bit unfair to compare absolute values of an M5 and S4, considering the M5 was $80K new and the S4 is $50K new. You should easily be able to sell your S4 for $25K, which is ~50% of original sticker, where a similar M5 is going for $35K which is 33% of sticker. So the M5 owner lost $45K vs. you losing $25K. A less expensive car will almost always lose less money over time - it is always worth something, and you have less value to drop!!

[c4racer]

I have both cars, an 07 S4 MT and a 2001 BMW M5 with very low miles. Hands down the M5 is a much nicer car. The finish, the ride and the list goes on. The entire interior is covered in leather like dash etc. Even the pillars and roof on the inside are covered in suede very little plastic unlike the audi. Driving the M5 is a lot more fun. The car handles like small sports car and the overstear is great. As far as maintenance I have had no problems with the 5. I plan on keeping the 5 for a very long time as far as the audi its a great car, its my daily driver, but not as exciting to drive as the M5. By the way if you live anywhere where it snows the M5 is useless. Even with snow tires its tricky to keep it on the road.

Well - I beg to differ than an M5 handles like a small sports car. Have you ever owned a small sports car? I've owned several Corvettes and a E36 M3, all in the 3100lb range aprox, and and Evo IX which is a heavy 3350lbs in comparison, but drove a lot like a small sports car. I've had track time in all of them. Also in the E39 M5 that I owned. I've also driven several other sports cars - 911's, NSX, Z3-M, Miata, etc. on the street and track. The M5 is a 3900lb beast of a understeering pig compared to any proper sports car!!

The S4 is a good bit more nimble than an M5 as far as I am concerned. It is similar in weight - maybe 100lbs less. But the wheelbase and track are both significantly smaller making it more agile. Not in comparison to a proper sports car mind you - the M3 and Evo / STI are the only sedans that I would say can compete with a sports car in handling. I would say at worst the S4 is an equal handling car to the M5, but so far I have found it handles better - has better feedback, and can carry more speed in a corner. I can't really say for sure until I have it on track. Oh - I also owned a CTSV that I did get out on the track and found that car handles quite a bit better than the M5 does. Although the quality is sorely lacking, it doesn't compare at all to an M5 except in the performance dept. where it wins on handling and braking but falls short on steering feel and ride quality.

Now that said I will also be the first to admit the M5 is a better car. I sure hope it is - that is the flagship M car from BMW and sold for 1.5X what the S4 did - you cannot fairly compare the two because they are two different levels of car for sure. But given that you can get a 3-4 year newer S4 with less miles for about the same price as an M5 now on the used market, you can compare the two. As a daily driver I would take the S4 hands down - the performance is very similar, the quality (fit, finish, interior materials, ergonomics) are all on a similar level as the BMW. And the maint / repair costs are most likely going to be a lot less with the Audi. If you are looking for a more collectable car to drive once in a while and keep nice but not rack up the miles, the M5 might be a good choice if you also need something that big. But if I were going to have a collectable car in that price range I would be more likely to opt for an E46 M3, although they are not as rare and exclusive as the M5. Actually - I'd probably opt for a 911 instead - 996's can be had for mid $30's now too, and those do handle like proper sports cars.

[ToMMyRsK04]

I'd wanna say the M5 but if it really came down to it .. I'd prob pick up the new S4

[killintime]

Well - it is a bit unfair to compare absolute values of an M5 and S4, considering the M5 was $80K new and the S4 is $50K new. You should easily be able to sell your S4 for $25K, which is ~50% of original sticker, where a similar M5 is going for $35K which is 33% of sticker. So the M5 owner lost $45K vs. you losing $25K. A less expensive car will almost always lose less money over time - it is always worth something, and you have less value to drop!!

That's a good point, I didn't look at it like that.

And if I may, not trying to flame anyone or hurt anyone's feelings, but there are a couple of BMW drivers at my place of employment and they all seem somewhat prickish.

So whoever started this thread, if you are still reading, it comes down to your nature.

Are you pretentious? If so, then maybe the Bimmer is your best bet.

Ya see, one of the things that I like about the AUDI is that its a little unassuming. True not everyone is aware of what the "M" on a BMW means, but even less are familiar with what the "S" on an AUDI means.

Once again, my 2 cents

[momomo]

I appreciate everyone's input. Lot of very very good points have been made and I do agree with most of the points. I had an M3 before and now I have an A4 so I myself am familiare with the two cars.

I don't think that an M5 is pretentious nor do I think anyone can expect it to perform like an M3 or a porsche, however I must say that is awfuly fast and handles resonably well for a Sedan size. In fact it's been known to pull 1.02 gs and that is very remarkable. So I think you can have your cake and maybe nibble on it a little

Here in Seattle we don't get much snow but a lot of rain which can send the bimmer spinning if not careful, and I agree that the S4 could be safer , but the bimmer is more exclusive and rare and the extra space is defintely a blessing.

Overall I have to say that the M5 feels more like a "bad boy" of a car more attitude whereas the S4 looks more safe and boring. Wit it I would have also warranty and an almost brand new car, whereas with the bimmer I get an 8 year old car.

So where does that leave me? ah let's see

[skunkoncrunk]

Throw the Dinan package on the M5 and daaaaaaaaamn.

Though, Dinan is WAY overpriced.

[c4racer]

I appreciate everyone's input. Lot of very very good points have been made and I do agree with most of the points. I had an M3 before and now I have an A4 so I myself am familiare with the two cars.

I don't think that an M5 is pretentious nor do I think anyone can expect it to perform like an M3 or a porsche, however I must say that is awfuly fast and handles resonably well for a Sedan size. In fact it's been known to pull 1.02 gs and that is very remarkable. So I think you can have your cake and maybe nibble on it a little

Here in Seattle we don't get much snow but a lot of rain which can send the bimmer spinning if not careful, and I agree that the S4 could be safer , but the bimmer is more exclusive and rare and the extra space is defintely a blessing.

Overall I have to say that the M5 feels more like a "bad boy" of a car more attitude whereas the S4 looks more safe and boring. Wit it I would have also warranty and an almost brand new car, whereas with the bimmer I get an 8 year old car.

So where does that leave me? ah let's see

Ya - it's a tough call - I struggled with it myself. I think if it were not for the fact that I carry musical equipment and bikes with me several times each week and also go skiing a fair amount, I too would have ended up with the M5. It is definately more of a hard edged bad-ass car, there is no doubt about that. But in many ways I like blending in a bit more and flying under the radar and the S4 does that - especially in Avant trim because it just looks like another plain Audi wagon to most everybody. Which is fine w/ me!!

Seattle with all the rain seems to really point to the S4 too. We have hada pretty wet winter here in Northern CA this year, and driving the S4 has been awesome in the wet stuff. I can go just as fast in the wet as I do in the dry - well *almost*....

But really - at the end of the day - get the one you like best and will be most excited about owning and driving everyday. For me another allure of the S4 is I have not owned one and have never owned an Audi. I've had a E39 M5 before and several other M and non-M BMW's. So it was a chance to try something new for me as well.