Dyno comparison: NGK BKR7E vs. Denso IK27

[dubenvy]

I'm thinking we should a section to the "Ultimate Mod Thread" about Plugs, Temps, Climates and Gapping.

I think there are alot of people that are unaware of the benefits of the different ranges of plugs. Might cut down on the "Plugs for +1" or "Help with Misfiring" threads.


Anybody?

[darth tater]

uhh yes it does, SAI/EGR, I have the block off plate and the shit is sitting in my garage (rather than under the hood) So do you care to explain how I took something out that you say doesnt exsist?

Yeah guess why it suddently says SAI on it not just EGR... cuz they were called out out on another forum when it used to just say EGR, neither they nor some of their dealers even knew the difference between the two systems. Why it still even says EGR is beyond me..

We do not have EGR.. secondary air and EGR are 100% opposite systems, It really doesn't get much more opposite then those two systems.

Its rather scary when a company is developing products to remove and block off systems they do not even understand.

[darth tater]

Can you ever find a way to NOT bitch about something, lol

someones gotta be the asshole.. and I don't being being him if it gets people answers.

[mike-2ptzero]

Yeah guess why it suddently says SAI on it not just EGR... cuz they were called out out on another forum when it used to just say EGR, neither they nor some of their dealers even knew the difference between the two systems. Why it still even says EGR is beyond me..

We do not have EGR.. secondary air and EGR are 100% opposite systems, It really doesn't get much more opposite then those two systems.

Its rather scary when a company is developing products to remove and block off systems they do not even understand.

You know what is really funny. That valve was leaking on the car and the DEALER called it an EGR valve. They might be 100% opposite but they do the exact same thing which is to pump air back into the exhaust side of the head.

[CO AVANT]

fast_a2_20v from Integrated Engineering responded to my question on the milage of the copper plugs that were in...

http://www.elitedubs.com/index.php/topic,2491.0.html

[darth tater]

You know what is really funny. That valve was leaking on the car and the DEALER called it an EGR valve. They might be 100% opposite but they do the exact same thing which is to pump air back into the exhaust side of the head.

Actually they do not do even close to the same thing.

secondary air pumps fresh air onto the back side of the exhaust valves on cold starts to burn off the excess fuel needed to compensate for drop out in the mixture on a cold start. This also in turn preheats the cat since there is basically combustion occuring in the exhaust.

EGR is exhaust gas recirculation. This takes actual exhaust gas that has not completed full combustion and pumps it back into the intake of the engine so that it can be reburned and limits the amount of raw fuel reaching the cat which can destroy it and aids in cold start emissions.

Outcome is the same thing in the sense that it helps cold start emissions but the systems are not even close to the same. When you are developing parts it really pays to undertsand what you are working on. Carbs and fuel injectors do the same thing.. but they are not even close to the same in how they do their job.

[darth tater]

fast_a2_20v from Integrated Engineering responded to my question on the milage of the copper plugs that were in...

http://www.elitedubs.com/index.php/topic,2491.0.html

cool.. fair test then.

[darth tater]

I am curious to see more then one dyno pull however.. as 6hp peak on a 325hp pull is not that great of a difference.. several runs with each set of plugs would have been a better comparison.

Also logs of timing pull possibly. If the densos were not pulling as much timing or something like that could lead to the change.. but then the question would be are the heat rangs truely comparable if the timing was changing significantly.

[CO AVANT]

A platinum/iridium plug in a colder heat range usually runs as hot as a copper in the standard heat range when under high stress. Many will use a platinum/iridium plug one to two steps colder to counter that.

So if that ^^^ is the case then the IK27 being 2 steps colder than the BKR7E's makes a pretty fair comparison IMO. Yes multiple runs would have been nice, but remember he did the Denso's on the second run, not the first....depending on how much time he had in between runs and how efficient his IC was, history on the dyno has shown you make your best power on your first run if all other things are equal run to run. Even by not having all the data you want you cannot say these plugs don't run better for his application. This guy is a legit member of the audi community and I don't think he's gonna lie for personal gain. Long term who knows, but I sure as hell bet they last 20K minimum.....and I would hope so being 4X's more expensive than the 7E's...

[A4ringedONE8T]

Just pulled the N249 and N112 valves out along with all the associated vac lines (since they were just sitting there anyways) After the 3rd key cycle throws a code for open circuit on those valves. Just plugged them back in for now, but any idea what size resistors are needed for them? Same as the SAI pump?

[darth tater]

A platinum/iridium plug in a colder heat range usually runs as hot as a copper in the standard heat range when under high stress. Many will use a platinum/iridium plug one to two steps colder to counter that.

So if that ^^^ is the case then the IK27 being 2 steps colder than the BKR7E's makes a pretty fair comparison IMO. Yes multiple runs would have been nice, but remember he did the Denso's on the second run, not the first....depending on how much time he had in between runs and how efficient his IC was, history on the dyno has shown you make your best power on your first run if all other things are equal run to run. Even by not having all the data you want you cannot say these plugs don't run better for his application. This guy is a legit member of the audi community and I don't think he's gonna lie for personal gain. Long term who knows, but I sure as hell bet they last 20K minimum.....and I would hope so being 4X's more expensive than the 7E's...

He said he waited equal time between the first run start and the second run start.. Taking the plugs out etc and having fans on the car could have meant it was actually cooler on the start.

When I do back to back product comparison I make sure every factor is whithin the same range.. say +- 5 degrees of coolant temp.. +- 1 degree intake temps, check IC temps to make sure the are starting at also a close temp range.. allt hat stuff can make for some dead accurate back to back dyno runs. I did airfilter testing once where I did not even shut the car off between changes and then at the end went back and retested the first one... I wasn't even trying to sell anything.

If you want to sell something its reasonable to ask for valid tests.. one run vs one run on a decently modified car is not a very reasonable test.. If you want to get techincally its less then a 2% difference.. Thats well within the margin of error for any dyno.

as for him being well respected.. may want to do a little bit more research he screwed over a good number of people selling them manifolds that broke shortly after and then disappeared for a while.

[darth tater]

Just pulled the N249 and N112 valves out along with all the associated vac lines (since they were just sitting there anyways) After the 3rd key cycle throws a code for open circuit on those valves. Just plugged them back in for now, but any idea what size resistors are needed for them? Same as the SAI pump?

I think they may be in the faq over on vwvortex in the faq.. I know I have seen the specs over there..

[doublezero30]

deffinatly buying these tomorow after work. a place down the street from my work carries them. im thinkin since they recommened 22's for chipped cars ill get 24's...just cause i figure ive got injectors too so the more fuel makes it hotter. therefore the colder 24's would perform better. correct? or am i pulling shit outa my ass? haha

[Greg@DTH]

Snake oil...how convienient that they have a link to purchase.

No respectable Audi Tuner would swap plug on a hot motor anyways.

[dirtybrd]

Unless they want to pull the threads out of the head.

[vinny.dtw]

Welp, i ordered mine and its been a week, and the package is still in UTAH....

[doublezero30]

good thing you posted this, i order mine at a local auto parts store and was supposed to pick them up yesterday..completely forgot! haha, ill have to get them tomorow.

[Renga]

Anyone tried Brisk or Halo?

www.briskusa.com

[doublezero30]

i picked up a set of ik24's to run with my revo stage II. got them gapped to .030 ready to go in tomorow morning. i know they gapped them at .024 but they came with a bigger gap than that so .030 it is. as long as i can find a 3/8 extention laying around (all(most of) my tools are at work) ill have them in in the AM and keep you guys updated when i get home from work.

[A4ringedONE8T]

I got mine from IE today (ordered them the day this thread started via UPS ground)

What was the gap we decided on for these? BTW I got IK27's

[doublezero30]

I got mine from IE today (ordered them the day this thread started via UPS ground)

What was the gap we decided on for these? BTW I got IK27's

well, if you want to wait a day or two before puttng them in ill let you know how my .030 gap on the ik24's is.

[A4ringedONE8T]

Well the gap for yours (different temp range) as well as a different climate, different turbo setup, meth, and various other things may make a difference.

What was the gap IE was running on the plug in there car they did the tests with, anyone recall?

[sean1.8t]

Just pulled the N249 and N112 valves out along with all the associated vac lines (since they were just sitting there anyways) After the 3rd key cycle throws a code for open circuit on those valves. Just plugged them back in for now, but any idea what size resistors are needed for them? Same as the SAI pump?

what was the resistor you got for the SAI? forgive me if you answered this already but im too drugged up after surgery to search for it

thanks

[A4ringedONE8T]

what was the resistor you got for the SAI? forgive me if you answered this already but im too drugged up after surgery to search for it

thanks

Resistor recap all in one for future searchers

SAI Pump: 330ohm 10 Watt
N249 & N112: 30ohm 10watt (20watt will work as well)
N75: 30ohm 40watt (80watt will work as well)

From this thread, very good information, its worth the time to read the 5 pages

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=158591

[sean1.8t]

thanks shawn!

[doublezero30]

alright so after a day of driving mostly city and about 3-4 miles of highway, my ik24's gapped to .030 feel amazing. i can deffinatly notice thats its a tad peppier than before when i had autolite copper plugs. ide say well worth the $54.

[mtbrider]

i'm interested to see how the IK27's will work

[A4ringedONE8T]

Need to put mine in tomorrow, what should I gap them????

[mtbrider]

Need to put mine in tomorrow, what should I gap them????

I'm interested to see that you chose to go with the IK27's rather than the 24 especially since you have meth injection. What made you chose this route? As far as gap try a .028" or .030"

[A4ringedONE8T]

The site talked about 27 being for higher HP apps and/or race gas higher octane fuels. Well, the meth has a similar affect as higher octane, plus the colder temp range doesnt make too big of a deal down here in FL. It never gets really "cold" here

Which should I do .28 or .30? I was thinking .28, usually gap my BKR7E's @ .32 though

[mtbrider]

I would try a .028. I may be picking up a set of these soon for my car as well, i'm interested to see your opinion. Currently I'm running BKR7eix's and am not that satisfied with them

[CO AVANT]

I would try a .028. I may be picking up a set of these soon for my car as well, i'm interested to see your opinion. Currently I'm running BKR7eix's and am not that satisfied with them

The 8EIX's perform much better for me.

7EIX<F5DPOR<8EIX - this is how these three stack up from vag logs.

I will prolly try the IK27's after I use up all other NGK and Bosch plugs I have lying around.

[mtbrider]

I spoke to Peter at IE today and he recommended a .024 gap for our application.

[mike-2ptzero]

The 8EIX's perform much better for me.

7EIX<F5DPOR<8EIX - this is how these three stack up from vag logs.

I will prolly try the IK27's after I use up all other NGK and Bosch plugs I have lying around.

Brisk makes a set of spark plugs I want to try out but they are not cheap, boooostedA4 was going to try their cheaper set but he no longer posts on these site at this time. Also ModifiedA4 says he runs the E3 spark plugs which he seems to like.


Here is a picture of the brisk turbo plugs, these are about $20 each




Then there is the LGS plugs, these are $12 each



here is their web site

[CO AVANT]

wow, those look weird. here's a nice cross reference chart.

http://www.briskusa.com/cross_reference01.htm

[QuattroRocket]

I have been looking for a plug option to possibly help with the engine pinging I have been plagued with, I will try a set and see ... doesn't seem like it could hurt. I am tempted to go with the 27's despite being only a 1+ car just to see and because in Vancouver it doesn't get too cold.

[mike-2ptzero]

wow, those look weird. here's a nice cross reference chart.

http://www.briskusa.com/cross_reference01.htm

They dont list the bosch plugs I run but most likely the 10TS is most likely what I would have to run. Brisk lists a vw/audi shop that sells the plugs but they dont list the Turbo plug.

[A4ringedONE8T]

Put mine in, gapped at .28. Dash temp read 102 degrees, car pulls pretty hard and throws you back still on my low boost (19psi). My 7E's were about worn so I couldnt tell you if they make a huge difference (not like your going to feel 2 or 3hp over top of 300 anyways) but they for sure dont run any worse. Idle is great, cold start was perfect

[mtbrider]

interesting...i might pick up a set of 27's and see how they are at a .024" gap

[mtbrider]

i'll be calling brisk shortly to get some more information on their Turbo plugs, my biggest concern is that since they are so expensive and they do not use iridium what kind of lifespan do they have, also what kind of gap would be required/how can you gap these plugs?